Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth said:

First of all every saint in the Old Trstament from the time of Adam till Christ death had the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father before the Holy Ghost baptism was given as scripture teaches.

Secondly I am no against the saints having a live feast together and remembering the Lord in the bread and cup. But show me the expression “grace filled ordinances”

It is you I fear that do not discern the body of Christ

We being manybare one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread.

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On a side note, show me where the expression "Three persons in one essence", or "the Holy Trinity", or "One Person in two natures", or "Sola Scriptura" is found in the Bible, and I will show you where any expressions I ever write down here are found in the Bible.

Of a more focused note, there is no denying that the Holy Spirit was ministering throughout the Old Testament period of revelation. However, there is also no denying that the ministry of the Holy Spirit since the glorification of Christ, Whose own ministry as the God-man has made this possible, has emphatically been transformed into a form of ministry that is exponentially greater than and superior to anything prior. To deny this New Testament Truth is to deny the True nature of the New Testament and the Gospel.

The Bible is also clear on something else: It clearly witnesses to the fact that while the power of God (Holy Spirit) can manifest without them, God still chooses for crude materials to be involved in many manifestations of His Power, by causing and allowing these physical materials to become conduits, vehicles, and vessels in which His power can reside in and flow through, from Himself to the world and to us. I think you know Scripture sufficiently that I don't need to point to any specific texts to illustrate this happening. This being the case as it is. There isn't anything in God's Word to suggest that water Baptism had ought to be done away with. It was never done away with until the sixteenth century. Thus, this is not a reform of Church practice. Rather, it is an annihilation of it.

Mostly all of the so-called reformers didn't actually reform Christianity. No, they only succeeded in dismantling and destroying much of it. Jan Hus alone, in my opinion, is the only true reformer among all famous reformers, because all he did was to denounce certain innovations (and apostasies) that had developed from within the Roman jurisdiction of the Church which had come to distinguish and separate it from its sister Churches throughout the remainder of the Christian world. Yet in the process, Hus did not, to my knowledge, become a teacher of any heresy. Had they listened to Hus and repented, instead of burning Him alive, they would have restored their Communion in the Church. Instead, they persisted in their un-catholic doctrines and abuses.

Wordkeeper said:

Actually, one is saved by believing Jesus's words, eating Jesus's flesh, drinking His blood, giving up hope in the world system, and placing hope in God:

Deuteronomy 8:3
"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

Luke 19:8-9
8Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” 9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

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Because doing these things opens the door to receive the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit is in you, you aren't saved or being saved.

truefiction1 said:

Yes, we are very well acquainted with this Scriptural passage telling of the Lord being this "still small voice". This is because the Orthodox Church has had to defend its longstanding practice of "hesychasm" which is from the Greek word "hesychia", meaning stillness, rest, quiet, silence. By "keeping prayerful stillness", we are able to be taught directly by the "still small voice" of God, Who can't otherwise be heard very well.

On the other hand, however, isn't it true that in His Divine Providence, God has many times involved crude, earthly materials in demonstrations of His Divine power? Has He not allowed and caused the crude materials to become conduits through which His power flows, or radiates? Not, per-say, out of necessity, but perhaps out of His perfect knowledge of what is most beneficial for all in the long run?

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I really don't know about that. All I know is that my job is to keep listening for that still small voice that interrupts my thoughts with His wisdom and knowledge. I am most thankful for this very personal relationship with Him. I never pray to ask for things for myself. He always tells me what to pray, I pray His words, and the prayer is always answered, sometimes immediately.

truefiction1 said:

Because doing these things opens the door to receive the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit is in you, you aren't saved or being saved.

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The one thing that opens the door to receiving the Holy Spirit is repentance. And after that, to receive more of Him is obedience.

LoveofTruth said:

"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."(1 John 5:7 KJV)

"12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. 14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God..."



"3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"(Romans 1:3,4 KJV)


Hebrews 10:5 KJV
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"(Romans 8:3 KJV)





I don't use the expression Solo scriptura. It is not only the scriptures. All saints need the scriptures the Spirit of God and the body of Christ to help to be perfect.



Your wording here is not accurate. God can manipulate physical things in His power, he can cause a storm, or judge any man and cause calamity and distress etc. But think of the example when the people were bitten by firey serpents and all they had to do was look to the serpent on the pole to be healed. Then later on the had to destroy that very serpent on the pole because it was becoming an idol or a wrong focus. Many today look to statues and icons and relics and many other things for spiritual things. But it is like looking for the seed in the shell that has been cast off. You cannot put new wine in old wineskins.



The doctrine of baptisms is a long talk. But the water baptism of John for Israel was under the law and was part of the diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed on them (Israel) until the time of reformation. They had to do many things until their conscience could grasp and come more fully into the new covenant. Read this in Hebrews 8 and 9 etc.

In the book of Acts we see many Jewish believers under the law still and struggling with it. They were going into the temple and doing sacrifices and zealous of the law and customs. This was done by many thousands of Jewish BELIEVERS ( Acts 2, 15,21 etc). The gentiles were not to be brought under israels program and then brought back out of it. Paul went to the gentiles and he said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. He had to define that gospel again to the same people who were dividing into sects.

Peter eventually understood the saving baptism and he said it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ( or that is to say, not the outward washing of water) but it is an inward work and the answer of a clean conscience by the resurrection of Christ. This is a long study maybe for another time. But needless to say , Jesus said that John truly baptized ( past tense) with water, but ye shall be baptized ( future tense) with the Holy Ghost. This shows that Johns water baptism was past and fading away. But it didn't go right away , as many of the other Jewish customs also didn't go and the law. They even circumcised Jewish believers in Acts 16.

In Galatians 2 we read that peter had the gospel of the circumcision and Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision. The same gospel but applied to two different groups. Again a long talk.

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The expressions I asked you about aren't in the Bible. You couldn't show me those exact expressions in the Bible, so don't expect me to show any that you ask me to. The reference to the Father, Word, and Spirit in 1 John 5:7 isn't in all translations, by the way, because there's evidence that it was added somehow at sometime by a translator, and not found in the earliest versions of John's Epistle. So it's probably not really in there. (I just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know).

There isn't any reason to talk about not having water Baptism in the Church. The Church was doing it after John the Baptist and has been doing it ever since. There's never been any good reason to stop, and isn't now.

God's miracles have involved the use of several different earthly materials and substances, and still do. God can heal without doing anything, but merely by speaking the word, and He can heal through the laying on of His, or someone else' hands, or by spitting on a clump of dirt to make past to anoint blind eyes that see again once the paste is washed off with water, or through a sick woman's touch to the hem of His cloak. If He could just speak the word or wave a hand and the person be healed, then why use these other ways? God has his great reasons, we're sure. But now we know that God has appointed in His providence that there would be several ways by which His children will receive the Holy Spirit. Water Baptism included.

truefiction1 said:

The expressions I asked you about aren't in the Bible. You couldn't show me those exact expressions in the Bible, so don't expect me to show any that you ask me to. The reference to the Father, Word, and Spirit in 1 John 5:7 isn't in all translations, by the way, because there's evidence that it was added somehow at sometime by a translator, and not found in the earliest versions of John's Epistle. So it's probably not really in there. (I just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know).

There isn't any reason to talk about not having water Baptism in the Church. The Church was doing it after John the Baptist and has been doing it ever since. There's never been any good reason to stop, and isn't now.

God's miracles have involved the use of several different earthly materials and substances, and still do. God can heal without doing anything, but merely by speaking the word, and He can heal through the laying on of His, or someone else' hands, or by spitting on a clump of dirt to make past to anoint blind eyes that see again once the paste is washed off with water, or through a sick woman's touch to the hem of His cloak. If He could just speak the word or wave a hand and the person be healed, then why use these other ways? God has his great reasons, we're sure. But now we know that God has appointed in His providence that there would be several ways by which His children will receive the Holy Spirit. Water Baptism included.

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I'm not sure why anyone would say water baptism is no longer needed, anymore than partaking of the Lord's Supper elements is no longer needed. They seem to be to God, and that's all that matters.

However, just as we must rightly discern the body of Christ, we must also rightly discern the meaning of baptism. It is a burial of the old man. And who does the killing of the carnal nature? The Holy Spirit. So unless you have evidence of the Holy Spirit, you're just burying a person ALIVE, in order to kill them. That is not how baptism works.

Here is a portion of LoT's post: "not the outward washing of water) but it is an inward work and the answer of a clean conscience by the resurrection of Christ."

Note it is in answer to an already clean conscience. In other words they received the Holy Spirit when they truly REPENTED from sin, and turned to Christ. A clean conscience only can be present after the old nature is DEAD.

From my personal experience, I was baptized as a baby. Still grew up sinning. I was baptized at age 10 by full immersion. Still sinned willfully. I was baptized at age 26 because I was no longer in the SDA church that I was in at age 10. Still sinned. But at 30 when I truly repented and wanted to be washed clean of all sin, the Holy Spirit showed me a vision (the first of many), spoke to me (the first time of many) and filled me to overflowing with His Spirit (I felt it, and all desire to sin vanished). It was after that, when I knew I was a new creature, that I obeyed the ordinance of water baptism.

This is why I said earlier, "The one thing that opens the door to receiving the Holy Spirit is repentance. And after that, to receive more of Him is obedience.

LoveofTruth said:

No you are wrong here again and I am fully aware of this attack many have on the bible and the Tri unity of the Godhead

Here is just some of the evidence for that verse
“
Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitateagainst the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

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Thanks for finding all this good information.

truefiction1 said:

Because doing these things opens the door to receive the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit is in you, you aren't saved or being saved.

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Believing God is able and willing to enable you to reach rest and obeying when He calls is all that is needed to enter that rest. You don't need the Holy Spirit to be enabled.

The job of the Holy Spirit is to make the revelations happen:

Luke 11:20But if I am casting out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you.

Concentrate your mind. You will understand. Use a little effort. Unless you refuse to believe:

John 3:19
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Bible2+ said:

Not for salvation. But people can simply know that God exists by seeing everything else that exists (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-4). For the universe couldn't have created itself from nothing by physics, because of the 1st law of thermodynamics. So something outside of physics had to have created the universe. The term spirit is used to refer to something which exists outside of physics. So what created the universe was a spirit (John 4:24, John 1:3). And this has to be an uncreated spirit, because nothing, not even a spirit, can create itself from nothing. For in order to create itself, it would have to already exist. So just by being able to see the universe, people have no excuse for denying the existence of an uncreated spirit, who is known as God (Romans 1:20, John 4:24, Psalms 19:1-4). And God must have eternal power (Romans 1:20), for the 1st law of thermodynamics requires that even the energy in the universe is eternal.

Because knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20), when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable (2 Thessalonians 3:2), choosing to be foolish, regarding God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:21-22, Psalms 14:1). But there is no salvation in simply believing that God exists (James 2:19). Believing in Jesus Christ, the human/divine Son of God, and His suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day, is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven, so that they won't have to go down into hell when they die (John 3:16,36, Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

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Salvation can mean many things.

It can mean any of the stages of the process which take place when a person realised the futility of serving the world system for earthly rewards because serving the world requires unrighteous acts (Every transaction has a winner and a loser, an exploiter and an exploited) and the fruits never last.

To be prepared to be a loser, to do charitable work, makes no sense unless God exists who rewards good works and with permanent prizes.

So revelation tells us the world makes sense if God exists and His rewards are meaningful.

We call the rewards salvation. Salvation happens when we are accepted, our questions are clarified and our rewards are given: justification, sanctification and glorification. Salvation also has different levels of justification, sanctification and glorification. The New Covenant is a superior covenant, not a superceding covenant. If you want to revert to works, then you will not enjoy the benefits of Grace. It however doesn't mean that you will have no benefits at all. The Jews had certain benefits because they possessed the law. However, Gentiles who observed the requirements of the law even when they did not possess the law received the same benefits as those who possessed the law. In plain terms, if Gentiles listened to their conscience, and loved their fellow men, and loved God, they would receive the benefits of the covenant of works.

Romans 2:5-16
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will betribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Wordkeeper said:

Believing God is able and willing to enable you to reach rest and obeying when He calls is all that is needed to enter that rest. You don't need the Holy Spirit to be enabled.

The job of the Holy Spirit is to make the revelations happen:

Luke 11:20But if I am casting out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you.

Concentrate your mind. You will understand. Use a little effort. Unless you refuse to believe:

John 3:19
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

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The Holy Spirit is He Who brings God and His Heavenly Kingdom to Live inside of us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot participate in this Heavenly Life. If you deny this powerfully Biblical and Spiritual Truth, then you deny the very power of the Gospel.

I have already shown you the Scripture and explained those things which are written of the Holy Spirit and the Kingdom of Heaven. Concentrating your mind on your cognitive (mental) analysis of Scripture will not result in the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven inside of you. This is done only by unceasing prayer and fasting. A true theologian is one who truly prays. Thinking avails nothing.

Pray, for heaven's sake. Just pray.

1stcenturylady said:

I'm not sure why anyone would say water baptism is no longer needed, anymore than partaking of the Lord's Supper elements is no longer needed. They seem to be to God, and that's all that matters.

However, just as we must rightly discern the body of Christ, we must also rightly discern the meaning of baptism. It is a burial of the old man. And who does the killing of the carnal nature? The Holy Spirit. So unless you have evidence of the Holy Spirit, you're just burying a person ALIVE, in order to kill them. That is not how baptism works.

Here is a portion of LoT's post: "not the outward washing of water) but it is an inward work and the answer of a clean conscience by the resurrection of Christ."

Note it is in answer to an already clean conscience. In other words they received the Holy Spirit when they truly REPENTED from sin, and turned to Christ. A clean conscience only can be present after the old nature is DEAD.

From my personal experience, I was baptized as a baby. Still grew up sinning. I was baptized at age 10 by full immersion. Still sinned willfully. I was baptized at age 26 because I was no longer in the SDA church that I was in at age 10. Still sinned. But at 30 when I truly repented and wanted to be washed clean of all sin, the Holy Spirit showed me a vision (the first of many), spoke to me (the first time of many) and filled me to overflowing with His Spirit (I felt it, and all desire to sin vanished). It was after that, when I knew I was a new creature, that I obeyed the ordinance of water baptism.

This is why I said earlier, "The one thing that opens the door to receiving the Holy Spirit is repentance. And after that, to receive more of Him is obedience.

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I was Baptized and Chrismated as an infant, in the 2000 year old Orthodox Church. I have been a sinner since, for sure. But, Baptism is an entry into a Life of repentance. That Life is a Life "INTO" Christ. We are Baptized into Christ, which means that we become a part of His mystical body. His mystical Body is the Church. Baptism is the entry/initiation into the communal Life of the faithful within the community of the local Church. The Life of the Church has been preserved through Holy Spirit guided Holy Tradition and Holy Spirit inspired Scripture since its foundation by Christ through the preaching and teaching of His Apostles, and their successors.

The Life of the Church is the Life of Repentance. True repentance that is continuous succeeds in opening the door of our hearts wider and fuller to receive the Kingdom of Heaven within us by the Power of the Holy Spirit. This is the Grace that saves: The Holy Spirit's mystical actions being performed upon us and altering all of those things about us that keep us from receiving greater and greater Heavenly Glory in ourselves.

Why do some on here deny that the Holy Spirit works within us in this way, when it is both Scriptural and found by experience to be True? Why do they believe that the Holy Spirit only works outward signs to be seen or heard about, and deny personal spiritual Communion with God in the Holy Spirit? Why can't they understand?

LoveofTruth said:

No you are wrong here again and I am fully aware of this attack many have on the bible and the Tri unity of the Godhead

Here is just some of the evidence for that verse
“
Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitateagainst the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

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If this scholarship is accurate (and it looks to be) then I stand corrected, having been influenced by claims I'd read from a written source not as well informed.

However, the expression "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, so it would seem that we may be allowed to use terminology, in our discussions here, that can't be found in exactly those terms in the Bible and still have made valid points through those terminologies. I'm merely asking that you don't ask me to show where exact terms I use are in the Bible. The exact terms don't need to be in the Bible, just so long as the ideas being expressed by those terminological expressions are based upon Biblical evidence.

I was merely making a point that the expression "Scripture alone" is not found anywhere in the Bible, nor is their sufficient evidence to support such a doctrine found in the Bible. The expressions that I've been using do have sufficient Biblical evidence supporting their use , just as the expression "Holy Trinity" does.

But enough of this digression, I think. It's not on topic. What's important is to establish the truth regarding the exact meaning of this "Grace" by which we are saved through faith. I say that this "Grace" is the Holy Spirit, or it can be said to be the Power of the Holy Spirit, or it can be said to be the Grace of the Holy Spirit. I say that it is definitely something that is Alive and present within us and making us Alive in the participation in that Divine Life which is the Life of the Holy Trinity. This is not just me who is saying this, but it is indeed the testimony of Scripture and of all of the saints throughout the Church age and in the present. Yet, there are those who firmly deny and reject this testimony. Why?

truefiction1 said in post #601:

There isn't anything in God's Word to suggest that water Baptism had ought to be done away with. It was never done away with until the sixteenth century. Thus, this is not a reform of Church practice. Rather, it is an annihilation of it.

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That brought to mind the mistaken annihilation of water-immersion baptism.

For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by merely having some water sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

*******

truefiction1 said in post #612:

A true theologian is one who truly prays. Thinking avails nothing.

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Note that together with prayer, thinking upon God's Word the Bible does avail for Christians. For we are told to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

And in order to get our doctrine right, we must know what the Bible itself says, in its entirety. For:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Matthew 4:4 . . . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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That is, the best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it, over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each Bible-reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as seven volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you are driving, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.

LoveofTruth said in post #605:

But the water baptism of John for Israel was under the law and was part of the diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed on them (Israel) until the time of reformation.

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Note that it does not seem that there was any regular Jewish practice of "baptism", as Christians know it, before John the Baptist and the first coming of Jesus Christ in the first century AD. But there was a Jewish practice called "mikvah", which was a ritual immersion in water in order to regain ritual purity under the Mosaic law, after the excretion of certain bodily fluids had made one ritually unclean, such as during menstruation, childbirth, sexual intercourse, or nocturnal emission, or from pus-emitting sores or ulcers of the skin. Mikvah can also be employed in some other ways, such as a sign of conversion to Judaism, as a way to ritually prepare a dead body for burial, in the ritual consecration of priests, ritually dealing with leprosy, or ritually preparing oneself for a sacred holiday.

It does not seem that mikvah was about repentance from sin, in the sense of deciding to turn away from willful, impure actions which one has committed by the lusts of one's own heart. Instead, mikvah seems to be more about washing oneself physically for ritual purification, when one is made ritually unclean under the Mosaic law, in some manner which does not necessarily involve any sin on one's part. And when a sin was committed, it was Mosaic animal sacrifices which ritually purified the flesh (Hebrews 9:13), although never the conscience (Hebrews 9:9, Hebrews 10:4). Just as the New Covenant's (Jeremiah 31:31-34) shedding of Jesus Christ's blood on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28) has forever replaced all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10), so the New Covenant has entirely replaced the letter of the Mosaic law (Hebrews 7:18-19), with all of its "diverse washings" (Hebrews 9:10), which would include mikvah.

The original Greek word (G0908) for "baptism" (Matthew 3:7) is derived from "baptizo" (G0907), which means to submerge (Mark 1:5) or wash (Mark 7:4). "Baptizo" is from "bapto" (G0911), which means to dip in a liquid (Luke 16:24, John 13:26, Revelation 19:13). A similar word, "baptismos" (G0909), can refer to either baptism (Colossians 2:12) or washing, as in Hebrews 9:10, which refers to "diverse washings" (baptismos) which Jews practiced under the Mosaic law. In this case, it could be said (as is sometimes done) that "there was a regular Jewish practice of baptism", including mikvah. But not in the sense of a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), which seems to have started with John the Baptist at the time of Jesus Christ's first coming (Mark 1:4-9).

Indeed, the Jews recognized that the particular baptism of John the Baptist was not any regular Jewish practice, but something very special indeed. For "they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?" (John 1:25). This suggests that the Jews had some expectation that a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins would come, but that it would be instituted only by the Messiah/Christ Himself, and the returned Elijah (Malachi 4:5), and the special prophet foretold by Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15). While John the Baptist denied being Elijah himself (John 1:21), John the Baptist did come in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17). So Jesus said that John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy regarding the return of Elijah (Matthew 11:14). And, of course, John the Baptist pointed to Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God (John 1:34, cf. Mark 14:61-62). Jesus is also at the same time the special prophet foretold by Moses (Acts 3:22-26).

So if, based on John 1:25, the Jews were looking forward to the institution of a special baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, and they expected it to be instituted by the Christ/Messiah, and the returned Elijah, and the special prophet foretold by Moses, then Christian baptism is that special baptism (Acts 22:16).

Wordkeeper said in post #610:

You don't need the Holy Spirit to be enabled.

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Note that Holy Spirit baptism is an empowering event subsequent to salvation. For:

Luke 24:49 . . . behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

A parallel passage refers to this enduing with power as Holy Spirit baptism:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 . . . ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you . . .

This was first fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2, just as the empowering of other Christians through Holy Spirit baptism occurred at subsequent times (Acts 19:6, Acts 10:44-46), down until this day.

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Also, note that in Luke 6:19, the original Greek word (dunamis: G1411) translated as "virtue" can mean "power" (Luke 5:17).

This would be the power of God's Holy Spirit (cf. Romans 15:13, Luke 4:14, Romans 15:19, Acts 1:8, Micah 3:8, Luke 1:35).

Bible2+ said:

That brought to mind the mistaken annihilation of water-immersion baptism.

For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by merely having some water sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

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Note that together with prayer, thinking upon God's Word the Bible does avail for Christians. For we are told to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that
hear thee.

And in order to get our doctrine right, we must know what the Bible itself says, in its entirety. For:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Matthew 4:4 . . . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

-

That is, the best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it, over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each Bible-reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as seven volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you are driving, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.

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Let me rephrase things then, because I certainly don't mean to suggest that meditation upon Scripture is anything that should be done without. I'm merely emphasizing the importance of prayer over cognition.

So, I will say it again, only better articulated this time: "The true theologian is one who truly prays. Thinking, by itself, can not save the thinker. Salvation is by Communion with God in the Holy Spirit (i.e. Grace), through faith."

Orthodox theologians have laid down their lives in defense of true doctrinal expressions. When you do become strongly aware that I'm a fairly well informed member of the Orthodox Church (the Church of the Ecumenical councils which carefully defined the Christological doctrines of the Church against the attacks of heresy) then you'll know that I'm not denying the importance of good "reasoning" in matters of the faith in those things I post here. I'm in the process of defending the true doctrine of "salvation" against someone who seems to be saying that salvation is strictly a matter of cognitive acceptance of external manifestations of grace, called "revelations", and believing God on the basis of those revelations alone, but denies the personal "internalization" of Grace (i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) within a person of faith. That is why I'm not emphasizing the place of cognition. Cognition cannot define the Life of God, neither in His essence nor in His energies. Neither can it grasp the actual mechanism which enables our participation in His Life by His uncreated energies (Grace). These are and will always remain "a profound mystery" (Ephesians 5:32).

Prayer can be said unceasingly, and must be done so (1 Thessalonians 5:17). Study of the Scripture is a must as well, as is fasting, and all manner of acts (fruits) of repentance, such as alms-giving and caring for others who are in need of it. I may have forgotten to include other important things in this short list.

Bible2+ said:

That brought to mind the mistaken annihilation of water-immersion baptism.

For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by merely having some water sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

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I don't know what brought this about. The last time I saw a family get Baptized in one of the parishes of the Orthodox Church in America, they brought a livestock watering tub into the middle of the Church and filled it with water, and the husband, wife, and children were immersed beneath the water. Infants are always fully immersed, three times, in a baptismal font. This is the standard practice for infants, but I don't know if the practice of full immersion of adults and older children is the standard for all Orthodox jurisdictions.

truefiction1 said:

The Holy Spirit is He Who brings God and His Heavenly Kingdom to Live inside of us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot participate in this Heavenly Life. If you deny this powerfully Biblical and Spiritual Truth, then you deny the very power of the Gospel.

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Wrong. The Holy Spirit is given to bring revelation that God is able and willing to lead us into rest, the Kingdom of God. If the Kingdom of God was within us, it would mean that it was within the Pharisees, obviously not what was meant by the text.

The Holy Spirit would reveal that it was right to repent, turn away from serving mammon for perishable gain to serving God for permanent treasure, because God was able and willing to lead us into the Kingdom. Even difficult situations like having great wealth, was not a problem for God, because with Him all things were possible.


Once in the Kingdom, the Holy Spirit would enable revelation of God's ability and willingness in our lives, so that people would be convinced and leave Egypt to serve God, repent. That's why the disciples were asked to wait for the Holy Spirit.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, Peter was able to bring people out of Egypt, just as Moses was able to bring people out of Egypt with the help of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:43-47
43Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Hebrews 3:16Now who heard him and provoked him? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

Psalms 78:11-17
11They forgot His deeds
And His miracles that He had shown them.

12He wrought wonders before their fathers
In the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.

13He divided the sea and caused them to pass through,
And He made the waters stand up like a heap.

14Then He led them with the cloud by day
And all the night with a light of fire.

15He split the rocks in the wilderness
And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths.

16He brought forth streams also from the rock
And caused waters to run down like rivers.

17Yet they still continued to sin against Him,
To rebel against the Most High in the desert.