LDS speaking with the dead

William Schnoebelen
William Schnoebelen - RationalWiki
Encyclopedia of American Loons: #350: William Schnoebelen
William Schnoebelen – Wikipedia
Anti-Masonic Examples: Bill Schnoebelen

Ironhold said:

Pro tip:

Telling people to watch a two-and-a-half hour video without offering up any sort of summary is pretty much guaranteed to ensure that folks *don't* watch it.

I can see a regular-length movie and knock out a review for it in that time.

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I knew the long video would most likely not be watched when I posted it, but then again most wouldn’t even watch a 15 min video. The real problem here is most of those who are convinced Mormonism is “the truth” do not want to hear anything to the contrary.


The testimony of anyone who was a former member and exposes the inside works and history of the church is just an apostate with an anti-Mormon agenda.


Bill Schnoebelen is just one of many who have left the church there is a very long list. All of them will be impugned in the same way.


Ok, here is a short point from the video. BTW here is an all “respected” Wikipedia link to support what the “Unreliable” Bill Schnoebelen proposed in the video.


Mormonism and Freemasonry - Wikipedia


Joseph Smith was a Freemason and freemasonry had a major influence on the church.


Why is that relevant? Freemasonry has occult ties. If you ask a freemason they are truth and my charge here is false. Facts say otherwise, but those entangled in a false belief system are not interested in facts.

Postvieww said:

I knew the long video would most likely not be watched when I posted it, but then again most wouldn’t even watch a 15 min video. The real problem here is most of those who are convinced Mormonism is “the truth” do not want to hear anything to the contrary.

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Postvieww, I responded to part of your video in post #58. Would you like to respond and have a conversation?

Jane_Doe said:

Postvieww, I responded to part of your video in post #58. Would you like to respond and have a conversation?

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Sure, would you like to start with the Freemasonry connections to Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church.

Postvieww said:

Sure, would you like to start with the Freemasonry connections to Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church.

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I already respond to a section, again see post #58.

Jane_Doe said:

It claims LDS believes the following (it's sayings in quotes, mine not):
-Christ "is our elder brother". This is true: LDS believe that the Father is the Father of ALL. There is no other. Last time I checked Creedal Christians also believe that this, so it's not really LDS specific.
-"He is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all of us". Same as above.

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You did comment as shown above, but you really did not explain what that means to you.


Is Jesus God? John 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16. Not really sure about your comment “creedal Christians believe this” Can you show a doctrinal statement from any other church that states Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all of us”?

Jane_Doe said:

-The next point the video makes is a classic anti-Mormon lie. If you want to read what LDS believe about Christ's conception and birth, I refer you to Luke (that's actual LDS doctrine). If you want to talk about non-docterineal statements taken out of context, I can refer you to source there.

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Actually Bill in the video said what he alleged was not commonly taught in the church and he had been in the Mormon Church 4 years before he heard that taught. To my point in post #55, that most rank and file Mormons don’t know what is going on at the upper levels and behind the scenes in their own church organization.


Is the below statement true or not?


"Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, in perhaps the most explicit denial of the virgin birth, wrote,"


“Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)

Jane_Doe said:

"The atonement has nothing to do with the cross". Completely lie.

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Are the two quotes below accurate quotes or not.

BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,).

Postvieww said:

Is Jesus God? John 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16. Not really sure about your comment “creedal Christians believe this” Can you show a doctrinal statement from any other church that states Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all of us”?

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Do you believe that there is another Father in existence?
Or do you believe that there is only one Father who is the Father of all?

Postvieww said:

Actually Bill in the video said what he alleged was not commonly taught in the church and he had been in the Mormon Church 4 years before he heard that taught.

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Because Mormons seldom seldom phrase our things like that. Anti-Mormons on the other hand love it... and despite the fact they likewise believe their's only one Father....

Postvieww said:

Is the below statement true or not?

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That quote isn't even from the LDS Church, and that source has MANY problems with it.

But now, you do got me wondering- why didn't your source tell you "hey this isn't actually an LDS Church publication"? Or, for that matter, if this 'really' is a LDS believe, why didn't they just quote an actual LDS Church publication? Do you have any idea @Postvieww?

.

Jane_Doe Said:

Hey, @Postvieww when was the last time you visited an LDS Church to make you and expert?

The last time I visited a non-LDS Christian church was several of them in December (I haven't gone much sense then because of getting sick...)



Not trying to claim I am an expert, I am just a truth seeker. I have friends who are Mormon. The only time I visited a Mormon church was in the 70’s. I have had Mormon Missionaries in my home. If your church had “the truth” that is where I want to be. But it does not and I am not.


I am more than happy to talk with you, but if we can’t use the testimony of former members or the writings of members or the history of the church that sort of narrows the parameters of the discussion. You tell me what church documents you deem acceptable and we can go from there.

Jane_Doe said:

why didn't they just quote an actual LDS Church publication?

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Are these documents acceptable and official documents of the LDS church?

Book of Mormon

Maroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

I can agree with that statement. James 1:17

Book of Mormon

Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many a wives andb concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24 Behold, David and a Solomon truly had many b wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

(Corrected my typo)

In the Book of Mormon multiple wives and concubines are abominable before the Lord. In Doctrine and Covenants the practice is justified.

Doctrine And Covenants 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many a wives and b concubines—

132:37 Abraham received a concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and b Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their c exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received a many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 a David’s wives and concubines were b given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the c keys of this power; and in none of these things did he d sin against me save in the case of e Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath f fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I g gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse a another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have a ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to a multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment,

It is obvious Joseph Smith and Brigham Young followed Doctrine and Covenants and not the Book of Mormon


Do you care to comment on the blatant contradictions?

Jane_Doe said:

why didn't they just quote an actual LDS Church publication?

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Is God a Spirit or does He have a flesh and bone body? The Book of Mormon and Doctrine And Covenants cannot agree on this point.



Book Of Mormon

Alma 18:26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

27 And he said, Yea.

28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?



Alma 22:8 And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began to rejoice, and he said: Behold, assuredly as thou livest, O king, there is a God.

9 And the king said: Is God that a Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem?

10 And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he a created all things both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this?

11 And he said: Yea, I believe that the Great Spirit created all things, and I desire that ye should tell meconcerning all these things, and I will a believe thy words.



Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in a unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.


Doctrine And Covenants

130: 3 John 14:23—The a appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false


130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.


The above confusion contradicts the Holy Bible, since I am guessing you believe LDS teaching supersedes the Holy Bible I am sure that is of no consequence.

Jane_Doe said:

why didn't they just quote an actual LDS Church publication?

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Is murder a forgivable sin or not? Why can’t these church documents agree if they are from God?

Book Of Mormon

3 Nephi 30:1: Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath a commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:

2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and yourf envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.



Doctrine And Covenants

42:18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not a kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

@Postvieww , you asked a lot of questions here, on a wide arrange of topics. What's the one question you would like me to answer first?

Jane_Doe said:

@Postvieww , you asked a lot of questions here, on a wide arrange of topics. What's the one question you would like me to answer first?

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Your choice.

Postvieww said:

Is God a Spirit or does He have a flesh and bone body? The Book of Mormon and Doctrine And Covenants cannot agree on this point.



Book Of Mormon

Alma 18:26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

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This tells me that you're getting canned arguments.

...From people who have no qualms about lying in God's name to deceive people like you.

Alma 18:5 -

5 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit. Notwithstanding they believed in a Great Spirit, they supposed that whatsoever they did was right; nevertheless, Lamoni began to fear exceedingly, with fear lest he had done wrong in slaying his servants;

Ammon is using the term "Great Spirit" because that's what King Lamoni, the person he's witnessing to, is familiar with. As we do indeed see later, "Great Spirit" is the general concept of God as used by the Lamanites, of which King Lamoni is a regional noble.

This is akin to what we see in Acts 17, where Paul went to Mars Hill and took advantage of their inscription to the "Unknown God" to preach God and Jesus unto the people there.

This is why you can't take canned critical arguments at face value. You need to independently study matters for yourself.

Postvieww said:

Here is just a short list of former Mormons with video testimonies. Look them up.


Lynn Wilder, Grant Palmer, Lee B. Baker (former Bishop), Andy Poland, Mitz Nelson, Earl Erskine (former Bishop). Randy Given ((Former Stake Mission President)

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I've heard of Palmer.

Nobody who is actually in the church takes him seriously.

You see, Palmer was caught doctoring citations in his book and has also exaggerated much of his personal history, both of which are mortal sins in the world of academia.

Never heard of the others.

Postvieww said:

Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many a wives andb concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 1:24 Behold, David and a Solomon truly had many b wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

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Another canned argument from people who lie in God's name.

You see, there is no such verse as Jacob 1:24.

It ends at verse 19.

The full chapter: Jacob 1 .

Rather, that verse is actually Jacob 2:24.

...And going down to Jacob 2:30, we see:

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

In other words, God reserves the right to command it under limited and specific circumstances.

Again, read things for yourself instead of taking the words of critics.

Postvieww said:

Maroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

I can agree with that statement. James 1:17

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Cool.

Postvieww said:

Book of Mormon

Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many a wives andb concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 1:24 Behold, David and a Solomon truly had many b wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

In the Book of Mormon multiple wives and concubines are abominable before the Lord. In Doctrine and Covenants the practice is justified.

Doctrine And Covenants 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many a wives and b concubines—

132:37 Abraham received a concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and b Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their c exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received a many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 a David’s wives and concubines were b given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the c keys of this power; and in none of these things did he d sin against me save in the case of e Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath f fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I g gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse a another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have a ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to a multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment,

It is obvious Joseph Smith and Brigham Young followed Doctrine and Covenants and not the Book of Mormon


Do you care to comment on the blatant contradictions?

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Adding a couple of scriptures to your list:

Throughout the OT there is polygamy in God's people. You have Abraham (see Gen. 25:1-6) and Jacob (see Gen. 29 and 30), David (2 Samuel 12:7-9), Solomon, Gideon (Judges 8:30), and Jehoiada the priest (2 Chronicles 24:2-3). In fact David is described as GIVEN wives by the Lord. And the Bible even describes the rules of multiple wives and inheritance (Deuteronomy 21:15-17).

And yet 1 Tim. 3:2 expressly teaches against this. So, how do you resolve this contradiction in scripture @Postvieww? Do you think God changes?

For me, the Book of Mormon expressly answers this: Polygamy is forbidden, except for those times when the Lord commands it (see Jacob 2:30 Jacob 2). This does not involve a change in God Himself, but rather God gives specific commandments to different people at different times.