Identity of Babylon in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Revelation

What is the identity of Babylon?

  • 1) Literal Babylon in Iraq

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • 2) Symbolic of Rome

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • 3) Symbolic of Jerusalem

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • 4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • 5) Symbolic of the false religion that originated at Babel

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • 6) other

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8

food4thought

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I have been reading the major prophets and came across the unfulfilled prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon. I am also familiar with the passages in Revelation that speak of a violent, sudden destruction of Babylon. My view regarding the identity of Babylon has been evolving and fuzzy, and I thought perhaps I could gain some insight from the many different viewpoints represented in this forum.

The theories I am familiar with are as follows:

1) Literal Babylon in Iraq
2) Symbolic of Rome
3) Symbolic of Jerusalem
4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city
5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel

Any others I have missed?

Please support your choice by explaining why you believe what you do.

Thanks in advance;
Michael
 

Anto9us

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Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Very weird to cast Jerusalem as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt -- but it is where the Lord was crucified -- so I voted for that.

AS far as Jeremiah and Isaiah -- Babylon is just Babylon
 
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food4thought

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Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Very weird to cast Jerusalem as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt -- but it is where the Lord was crucified -- so I voted for that.

Hi Anto9us, thanks for the reply!

Having just read Jeremiah, I have to ask... what about those verses that speak of Babylon as never being inhabited again, a desert, in light of the other passages that speak of Jerusalem's future glory?
 
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Anto9us

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I am not claiming to understand it all, food, and I do think actual "Babylon" of Jeremiah's time is gone for good...

whether the future glory of Jerusalem is NEW Jerusalem or not - i dunno that either.

Sorry to not be too much help, but at least I voted
 
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TribulationSigns

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Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Very weird to cast Jerusalem as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt -- but it is where the Lord was crucified -- so I voted for that.

Revelation 11 is not about literal physical city of Jerusalem, but rather New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church where Two Witnesses (signifies Elects) were given the power to preach Salvation Gospel to the world (wilderness, see Revelation 12 where Women fled to) for 1,260 symbolic days which represents the whole New Testament period. It is for the purpose of God sealing (saving) His people, Revelation 7:1-4, BEFORE the Great Tribualtion, can start. Once all people God has sealed as been sealed, the testimony for salvation is finished, and the beast will come out of bottomless pit to kill (silence) the truthful testimony which has caused the CHURCH to become apostasy, a great city which is NOW SPIRITUALLY what is called Sodom (abominations) and Egypt (bondage).

This is Babylon the Great because many people will not believe that it is the Church that once faithful representative of the Kingdom of God as long as God was sealing His people until the great city has BECOME a home of the devils (men with the spirit of antichrist) ruling therein.

Rev 18:2
[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Babylon in Revelation has NOTHING to do with any physical nation or empire on Earth since they were never considered a faithful representative of God's Kingdom before her fall. It is His New Testament congregation that is in apostasy and desolation.
 
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food4thought

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I am not claiming to understand it all, food, and I do think actual "Babylon" of Jeremiah's time is gone for good...

whether the future glory of Jerusalem is NEW Jerusalem or not - i dunno that either.

Sorry to not be too much help, but at least I voted

Not a problem, Anto9us... I'm not so sure about actual Babylon. One hundred years ago, no one would have thought Israel was coming back, either.
 
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food4thought

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Revelation 11 is not about literal physical city of Jerusalem, but rather New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church where Two Witnesses (signifies Elects) were given the power to preach Salvation Gospel to the world (wilderness, see Revelation 12 where Women fled to) for 1,260 symbolic days which represents the whole New Testament period. It is for the purpose of God sealing (saving) His people, Revelation 7:1-4, BEFORE the Great Tribualtion, can start. Once all people God has sealed as been sealed, the testimony for salvation is finished, and the beast will come out of bottomless pit to kill (silence) the truthful testimony which has caused the CHURCH to become apostasy, a great city which is NOW SPIRITUALLY what is called Sodom (abominations) and Egypt (bondage).

This is Babylon the Great because many people will not believe that it is the Church that once faithful representative of the Kingdom of God as long as God was sealing His people until the great city has BECOME a home of the devils (men with the spirit of antichrist) ruling therein.

Rev 18:2
[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Babylon in Revelation has NOTHING to do with any physical nation or empire on Earth since they were never considered a faithful representative of God's Kingdom before her fall. It is His New Testament congregation that is in apostasy and desolation.


Thanks for your thoughts, TribulationSigns, that is a well thought out understanding. It is difficult to know how to interpret certain passages, but I lean more towards a literal hermeneutic.
 
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food4thought

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The more I think on it, the more I lean towards the view that it will be a rebuilt literal Babylon (or the capitol city of a future empire based in that part of the world). Jeremiah prophesied the literal destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding nations earlier in the book, so why should we all the sudden move to a spiritual interpretation for his prophecy concerning Babylon?

I don't like the implications of that, though, as there is no sign that such a thing could happen in the near future.
 
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Revealing Times

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I have been reading the major prophets and came across the unfulfilled prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon. I am also familiar with the passages in Revelation that speak of a violent, sudden destruction of Babylon. My view regarding the identity of Babylon has been evolving and fuzzy, and I thought perhaps I could gain some insight from the many different viewpoints represented in this forum.

The theories I am familiar with are as follows:

1) Literal Babylon in Iraq
2) Symbolic of Rome
3) Symbolic of Jerusalem
4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city
5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel

Any others I have missed?

Please support your choice by explaining why you believe what you do.

Thanks in advance;
Michael
I went with other. #5 is close but its the other side of the two-sided coin. False Religion is the Harlot, and the Kings in league with the Beast kill her off, they hate her, but the Kings in Rev. 18 cry and lament when Babylon is destroyed, so Babylon and the Harlot are two different entities.

Who/what did the Harlot ride the back of? The Beast, thus Babylon is a stand in or Metaphor for World Governance under Satan. In Luke ch. 4 Satan told Jesus all of the Kingdoms were his to do as he pleased with remember? The Head of Gold is Babylon, the Statue Represents Governments under Satan trying to overcome Gods will, Israel and later the Christian Church.

My old thread on this might be of use to you.

Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained
 
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food4thought

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I went with other. #5 is close but its the other side of the two-sided coin. False Religion is the Harlot, and the Kings in league with the Beast kill her off, they hate her, but the Kings in Rev. 18 cry and lament when Babylon is destroyed, so Babylon and the Harlot are two different entities.

Who/what did the Harlot ride the back of? The Beast, thus Babylon is a stand in or Metaphor for World Governance under Satan. In Luke ch. 4 Satan told Jesus all of the Kingdoms were his to do as he pleased with remember? The Head of Gold is Babylon, the Statue Represents Governments under Satan trying to overcome Gods will, Israel and later the Christian Church.

My old thread on this might be of use to you.

Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

Hi, thanks for responding!

I read through the OP in the link you provided, and I agree completely with the identification of the heads of the seven headed beast. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece (all fallen at the time), Rome (in power at the time), and a future empire yet to be. I still lean towards the idea that the future empire will be centered around Iraq/Iran, and a city near the original Babylon will become it's capitol (see my post #8 above).
 
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Revealing Times

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Hi, thanks for responding!

I read through the OP in the link you provided, and I agree completely with the identification of the heads of the seven headed beast. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece (all fallen at the time), Rome (in power at the time), and a future empire yet to be. I still lean towards the idea that the future empire will be centered around Iraq/Iran, and a city near the original Babylon will become it's capitol (see my post #8 above).
Yea, I read all the other posts so I kinda got the idea. But we know Babylon will never be rebuilt because Isaiah prophesied that as did Jeremiah to some extent. I think people actually miss what the Beast/Kings kill off in Revelation 17:16, they kill of the Harlot (All False Religion) and thus the Beast who desires to be worshiped as the only God will thus wipe out all Religions at one time. Islam will be wiped off the face of the earth along with Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. all, she dies the death. The Government side, or Babylon does not, God sees all the Nations as Babylon, that is why in Revelation 16:19 he sees the Nations that He destroys as Babylon. But as per Isaiah and Jeremiahs prophesies.

The prophet Isaiah predicted the fall of Babylon and that it shall not be inhabited “And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there” (Isaiah 13:19, 20). A century after Isaiah, Jeremiah uttered a similar prediction “And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling place for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant” (Jeremiah 51:37).

I think the Arab/Muslim nations enter into the same Peace/Security Agreement that Israel enters into with the Anti-Christ, thus he conquers them all at once.
 
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food4thought

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Yea, I read all the other posts so I kinda got the idea. But we know Babylon will never be rebuilt because Isaiah prophesied that as did Jeremiah to some extent. I think people actually miss what the Beast/Kings kill off in Revelation 17:16, they kill of the Harlot (All False Religion) and thus the Beast who desires to be worshiped as the only God will thus wipe out all Religions at one time. Islam will be wiped off the face of the earth along with Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. all, she dies the death. The Government side, or Babylon does not, God sees all the Nations as Babylon, that is why in Revelation 16:19 he sees the Nations that He destroys as Babylon. But as per Jeremiahs prophecy.

The prophet Isaiah predicted the fall of Babylon and that it shall not be inhabited “And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there” (Isaiah 13:19, 20). A century after Isaiah, Jeremiah uttered a similar prediction “And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling place for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant” (Jeremiah 51:37).

I think the Arab/Muslim nations enter into the same Peace/Security Agreement that Israel enters into with the Anti-Christ, thus he conquers them all at once.

So you see the prophesy of the total destruction of literal Babylon as having already occurred in history, despite the fact that it was never truly destroyed by a conquering army, but gradually declined and was eventually, very gradually, torn apart for it's building stones [which Jeremiah prophesied would NOT happen when it's destruction occurred (Jeremiah 51:26)].

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to bring out that the prophecies of the book of Revelation are tied and related to the prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah... our understanding of Revelation must take into account the other prophecies as well. It is my position that Jeremiah's prophecies concerning Babylon's destruction are as of yet unfulfilled in history. Or at the very least there is a near (partial) and far (total) fulfillment of these prophecies.

I guess my main question right now is this (and it is for anyone who has an answer!): if Jeremiah prophesied the literal destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding nations, and it literally happened, why should we look for a spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies regarding Babylon's destruction?

Again, I don't like the implications of the literal Babylonian kingdom theory, but I feel constrained to it by the context of Jeremiah. Help would be appreciated.
 
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tranquil

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I have been reading the major prophets and came across the unfulfilled prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon. I am also familiar with the passages in Revelation that speak of a violent, sudden destruction of Babylon. My view regarding the identity of Babylon has been evolving and fuzzy, and I thought perhaps I could gain some insight from the many different viewpoints represented in this forum.

The theories I am familiar with are as follows:

1) Literal Babylon in Iraq
2) Symbolic of Rome
3) Symbolic of Jerusalem
4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city
5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel

Any others I have missed?

Please support your choice by explaining why you believe what you do.

Thanks in advance;
Michael

Babylon is defined in Revelation 17 as

5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
just like the New Jerusalem (the faithful church, the bride) is a metaphorical 'city', the unfaithful church (the woman), Mystery babylon is a metaphorical 'city' that rules over the earth.

for the beast & false prophet to take over, they have to displace the 'current world order'. This is so that Satan can imitate the prophecy of Dan 2, breaking the statue of Babylon. Put another way, imitating prophecy so as to potentially deceive even the elect. the upcoming 'new world order' is an imitation of the kingdom of heaven on earth that has destroyed Babylon.

so, there is a current 'Babylon', a metaphorical 'city' that currently rules the world which has to be done away with, but is in fact, only a 'head wound' that it recovers from and reformulates itself as a 'holy' 'upgrade'. That's why the 2 witnesses of the 2nd woe are in Jerusalem. the 'current world order' (Mystery Babylon, city that rules the world) is destroyed by Satan and resurrected in Jerusalem, where it can parade around and say that it is now holy, led by the false prophet (not by the mortally head wounded 'antichrist', only the living image of the 'antichrist' is present in the Jerusalem stage - the 'antichrist' and his 'mouth'/ decoy false prophet must be destroyed so that the 'new world order' can fulfill the scriptures) . I substituted 'current world order' & 'Jerusalem new world order' for babylon.

So, there will be 2 Babylon destructions in the future.

Let's look at Jeremiah 51
Thus says the Lord:
“Behold, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer
against Babylon,

(current world order)
against the inhabitants of Leb-kamai,
2 and I will send to (current world order) Babylon winnowers,
and they shall winnow her,

the winnowers are the 'locusts' (explicitly called this later in the passage) of the 5th Trumpet, aka the 'people of the prince to come', the false prophets who rise up and bring the false prophet to power

the locusts of the Jerusalem Babylon stage are Christians that are told in Revelation 18:4-7 to pay her back for her sins
and they shall empty her land,
when they come against her from every side
on the day of trouble.
3 Let not the archer bend his bow,
and let him not stand up in his armor.
Spare not her young men;
devote to destruction all her army.
4 They shall fall down slain in the land of the Chaldeans,
and wounded in her streets.
5 For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken
by their God, the Lord of hosts,
but the land of the Chaldeans is full of guilt
against the Holy One of Israel.


6 “Flee from the midst of (current world order) Babylon;
let every one save his life!
Be not cut off in her punishment,
for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance,
the repayment he is rendering her.
7 (current world order) Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord's hand,
making all the earth drunken;
the nations drank of her wine;
therefore the nations went mad.
8 Suddenly (current world order) Babylon has fallen and been broken;
wail for her!
Take balm for her pain;
perhaps she may be healed.
9 We would have healed (current world order) Babylon,
but she was not healed.
Forsake her, and let us go
each to his own country,


(current world order) Babylon would be characterized by many immigrants
for her judgment has reached up to heaven
and has been lifted up even to the skies.
10 The Lord has brought about our vindication;
come, let us declare in Zion
the work of the Lord our God.

11 “Sharpen the arrows!
Take up the shields!

The Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Medes,

probably Russia/ Gog
because his purpose concerning Babylon is to destroy it, for that is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance for his temple.

12 “Set up a standard against the walls of (current world order) Babylon;
make the watch strong;
set up watchmen;
prepare the ambushes;
for the Lord has both planned and done
what he spoke concerning the inhabitants of Babylon.
13 O you who dwell by many waters,
rich in treasures,
your end has come;
the thread of your life is cut.
14 The Lord of hosts has sworn by himself:
Surely I will fill you with men, as many as locusts,
and they shall raise the shout of victory over you
.

15 “It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
16 When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens,
and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
17 Every man is stupid and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols,
for his images are false,
and there is no breath in them.
18 They are worthless, a work of delusion;
at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
19 Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob,
for he is the one who formed all things,
and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance;
the Lord of hosts is his name.

[...]
25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
declares the Lord,
which destroys the whole earth;


(2nd Trumpet's burning mountain)
I will stretch out my hand against you,
and roll you down from the crags,
and make you a burnt mountain.

26 No stone shall be taken from you for a corner
and no stone for a foundation,
but you shall be a perpetual waste,
declares the Lord.

27 “Set up a standard on the earth;
blow the trumpet among the nations;
prepare the nations for war against her;
summon against her the kingdoms,
Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz;
appoint a marshal against her;
bring up horses like bristling locusts.
28 Prepare the nations for war against her,
the kings of the Medes, with their governors and deputies,
and every land under their dominion.

29 The land trembles and writhes in pain,
for the Lord's purposes against Babylon stand,
to make the land of Babylon a desolation,
without inhabitant.
30 The warriors of Babylon have ceased fighting;
they remain in their strongholds;
their strength has failed;
they have become women;
her dwellings are on fire;
her bars are broken.
31 One runner runs to meet another,
and one messenger to meet another,
to tell the king of Babylon
that his city is taken on every side;
32 the fords have been seized,
the marshes are burned with fire,
and the soldiers are in panic.
33 For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor
at the time when it is trodden;
yet a little while
and the time of her harvest will come.”

34 “Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me;
he has crushed me;
he has made me an empty vessel;
he has swallowed me like a monster;
he has filled his stomach with my delicacies;
he has rinsed me out.
35 The violence done to me and to my kinsmen be upon (current world order) Babylon,”
let the inhabitant of Zion say.
“My blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea,”
let Jerusalem say.
36 Therefore thus says the Lord:
“Behold, I will plead your cause
and take vengeance for you.
I will dry up her sea
and make her fountain dry,
37 and Babylon shall become a heap of ruins,
the haunt of jackals,
a horror and a hissing,
without inhabitant.

38 “They shall roar together like lions;
they shall growl like lions' cubs.
39 While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast
and make them drunk, that they may become merry,
then sleep a perpetual sleep
and not wake, declares the Lord.

40 I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter,
like rams and male goats.

41 “How Babylon is taken,
the praise of the whole earth seized!
How Babylon has become
a horror among the nations!
42 The sea has come up on Babylon;
she is covered with its tumultuous waves.
43 Her cities have become a horror,
a land of drought and a desert,
a land in which no one dwells,
and through which no son of man passes.
44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon,
and take out of his mouth what he has swallowed.
The nations shall no longer flow to him;
the wall of Babylon has fallen.

this passage is interesting. the 'burning mountain' could be construed as a volcano erupting which triggers a tsunami that floods 'current order Babylon'.
Note that Bel/ Baal is in Babylon... this would be symbolized as the 'obelisk/ o-bel isk (translated as Baal's shaft) which is prominently figured in the current world order Babylon system of London, Washington DC, & the Vatican. London & Wash DC are under threat of the Cumbre Vieja volcano which would trigger a tsunami to both. Cumbre Vieja - Wikipedia

Rome is under threat from Campi Flegrei Naples’ supervolcano is reaching ‘dangerous’ levels
45 “Go out of the midst of her, my people!
Let every one save his life
from the fierce anger of the Lord!
46 Let not your heart faint, and be not fearful
at the report heard in the land,
when a report comes in one year
and afterward a report in another year,
and violence is in the land,
and ruler is against ruler.

47 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming
when I will punish the images of Babylon;
her whole land shall be put to shame,
and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
48 Then the heavens and the earth,
and all that is in them,
shall sing for joy over Babylon,
for the destroyers shall come against them out of the north,
declares the Lord.
49 Babylon must fall for the slain of Israel,
just as for Babylon have fallen the slain of all the earth.

50 “You who have escaped from the sword,
go, do not stand still!
Remember the Lord from far away,
and let Jerusalem come into your mind:
51 ‘We are put to shame, for we have heard reproach;
dishonor has covered our face,
for foreigners have come
into the holy places of the Lord's house.’

52 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will execute judgment upon her images,
and through all her land
the wounded shall groan.
53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven,
and though she should fortify her strong height,
yet destroyers would come from me against her,
declares the Lord.

54 “A voice! A cry from Babylon!
The noise of great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans!
55 For the Lord is laying Babylon waste
and stilling her mighty voice.
Their waves roar like many waters;
the noise of their voice is raised,
56 for a destroyer has come upon her,
upon Babylon;
her warriors are taken;
their bows are broken in pieces,
for the Lord is a God of recompense;
he will surely repay.
57 I will make drunk her officials and her wise men,
her governors, her commanders, and her warriors;
they shall sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake,
declares the King, whose name is the Lord of hosts.​
just like I substituted 'current world order' Babylon, it would be equally applicable to Jerusalem Babylon controlled by the false prophet.
 
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Waterwerx

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I have been reading the major prophets and came across the unfulfilled prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon. I am also familiar with the passages in Revelation that speak of a violent, sudden destruction of Babylon. My view regarding the identity of Babylon has been evolving and fuzzy, and I thought perhaps I could gain some insight from the many different viewpoints represented in this forum.

The theories I am familiar with are as follows:

1) Literal Babylon in Iraq
2) Symbolic of Rome
3) Symbolic of Jerusalem
4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city
5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel

Any others I have missed?

Please support your choice by explaining why you believe what you do.

Thanks in advance;
Michael
First, it should be noted that there are two different end-time Babylons: one speaks of a religious system, and the other a commercial system.
1) Literal Babylon in Iraq can be eliminated when considering the numerous aspects listed in Revelation 18, Isaiah 47, and Jeremiah 50-51.

3) Jerusalem can be eliminated, otherwise it would present a major contradiction since Scripture makes a distinction between the two:
Jeremiah 6:22-24
22 Thus says the Lord:
“Behold, a people comes from the north country,
And a great nation will be raised from the farthest parts of the earth.
23 They will lay hold on bow and spear;
They are cruel and have no mercy; Their voice roars like the sea; And they ride on horses, As men of war set in array against you, O daughter of Zion.”
24 We have heard the report of it; Our hands grow feeble. Anguish has taken hold of us, Pain as of a woman in labor.
Jeremiah 50:41-43
41 “Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance; They are cruel and shall not show mercy. Their voice shall roar like the sea; They shall ride on horses, set in array, like a man for the battle, against you, O daughter of Babylon.
43 “The king of Babylon has heard the report about them, And his hands grow feeble; Anguish has taken hold of him, pangs as of a woman in childbirth.

4) Antichrist's capitol city: I'm not sure if he's going to have a capitol per se, as he will be setting up shop in Jerusalem at the temple with the abomination of desolation. He goes out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many, which contrasts with Jeremiah 50:43 and also we've already determined that Babylon is not symbolic of Jerusalem.

2) Rome: both ancient Rome and the modern nations that were part of this empire do not fit the descriptions attributed to this future Babylon. Rome is an amalgamation of nations while Babylon is a nation/country itself consisting of a mixed people.

5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel. Remember, there are two Babylons in mind, and I think this would be best applied to the one in Revelation 17.

At present, there's only one singular nation that is:
- an economic powerhouse having deep water ports
- a consumer nation that makes the merchants of the world rich.
- has a globally dominating military
- its people are increasingly giving themselves over to pleasures(think of the entertainment industry, its idols, etc.).
 
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food4thought

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Babylon is defined in Revelation 17 as

5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
just like the New Jerusalem (the faithful church, the bride) is a metaphorical 'city', the unfaithful church (the woman), Mystery babylon is a metaphorical 'city' that rules over the earth.

for the beast & false prophet to take over, they have to displace the 'current world order'. This is so that Satan can imitate the prophecy of Dan 2, breaking the statue of Babylon. Put another way, imitating prophecy so as to potentially deceive even the elect. the upcoming 'new world order' is an imitation of the kingdom of heaven on earth that has destroyed Babylon.

so, there is a current 'Babylon', a metaphorical 'city' that currently rules the world which has to be done away with, but is in fact, only a 'head wound' that it recovers from and reformulates itself as a 'holy' 'upgrade'. That's why the 2 witnesses of the 2nd woe are in Jerusalem. the 'current world order' (Mystery Babylon, city that rules the world) is destroyed by Satan and resurrected in Jerusalem, where it can parade around and say that it is now holy, led by the false prophet (not by the mortally head wounded 'antichrist', only the living image of the 'antichrist' is present in the Jerusalem stage - the 'antichrist' and his 'mouth'/ decoy false prophet must be destroyed so that the 'new world order' can fulfill the scriptures) . I substituted 'current world order' & 'Jerusalem new world order' for babylon.

So, there will be 2 Babylon destructions in the future.

Let's look at Jeremiah 51
Thus says the Lord:
“Behold, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer
against Babylon,

(current world order)
against the inhabitants of Leb-kamai,
2 and I will send to (current world order) Babylon winnowers,
and they shall winnow her,

the winnowers are the 'locusts' (explicitly called this later in the passage) of the 5th Trumpet, aka the 'people of the prince to come', the false prophets who rise up and bring the false prophet to power

the locusts of the Jerusalem Babylon stage are Christians that are told in Revelation 18:4-7 to pay her back for her sins
and they shall empty her land,
when they come against her from every side
on the day of trouble.
3 Let not the archer bend his bow,
and let him not stand up in his armor.
Spare not her young men;
devote to destruction all her army.
4 They shall fall down slain in the land of the Chaldeans,
and wounded in her streets.
5 For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken
by their God, the Lord of hosts,
but the land of the Chaldeans is full of guilt
against the Holy One of Israel.


6 “Flee from the midst of (current world order) Babylon;
let every one save his life!
Be not cut off in her punishment,
for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance,
the repayment he is rendering her.
7 (current world order) Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord's hand,
making all the earth drunken;
the nations drank of her wine;
therefore the nations went mad.
8 Suddenly (current world order) Babylon has fallen and been broken;
wail for her!
Take balm for her pain;
perhaps she may be healed.
9 We would have healed (current world order) Babylon,
but she was not healed.
Forsake her, and let us go
each to his own country,


(current world order) Babylon would be characterized by many immigrants
for her judgment has reached up to heaven
and has been lifted up even to the skies.
10 The Lord has brought about our vindication;
come, let us declare in Zion
the work of the Lord our God.

11 “Sharpen the arrows!
Take up the shields!

The Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Medes,

probably Russia/ Gog
because his purpose concerning Babylon is to destroy it, for that is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance for his temple.

12 “Set up a standard against the walls of (current world order) Babylon;
make the watch strong;
set up watchmen;
prepare the ambushes;
for the Lord has both planned and done
what he spoke concerning the inhabitants of Babylon.
13 O you who dwell by many waters,
rich in treasures,
your end has come;
the thread of your life is cut.
14 The Lord of hosts has sworn by himself:
Surely I will fill you with men, as many as locusts,
and they shall raise the shout of victory over you
.

15 “It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
16 When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens,
and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
17 Every man is stupid and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols,
for his images are false,
and there is no breath in them.
18 They are worthless, a work of delusion;
at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
19 Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob,
for he is the one who formed all things,
and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance;
the Lord of hosts is his name.

[...]
25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
declares the Lord,
which destroys the whole earth;


(2nd Trumpet's burning mountain)
I will stretch out my hand against you,
and roll you down from the crags,
and make you a burnt mountain.

26 No stone shall be taken from you for a corner
and no stone for a foundation,
but you shall be a perpetual waste,
declares the Lord.

27 “Set up a standard on the earth;
blow the trumpet among the nations;
prepare the nations for war against her;
summon against her the kingdoms,
Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz;
appoint a marshal against her;
bring up horses like bristling locusts.
28 Prepare the nations for war against her,
the kings of the Medes, with their governors and deputies,
and every land under their dominion.

29 The land trembles and writhes in pain,
for the Lord's purposes against Babylon stand,
to make the land of Babylon a desolation,
without inhabitant.
30 The warriors of Babylon have ceased fighting;
they remain in their strongholds;
their strength has failed;
they have become women;
her dwellings are on fire;
her bars are broken.
31 One runner runs to meet another,
and one messenger to meet another,
to tell the king of Babylon
that his city is taken on every side;
32 the fords have been seized,
the marshes are burned with fire,
and the soldiers are in panic.
33 For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor
at the time when it is trodden;
yet a little while
and the time of her harvest will come.”

34 “Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me;
he has crushed me;
he has made me an empty vessel;
he has swallowed me like a monster;
he has filled his stomach with my delicacies;
he has rinsed me out.
35 The violence done to me and to my kinsmen be upon (current world order) Babylon,”
let the inhabitant of Zion say.
“My blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea,”
let Jerusalem say.
36 Therefore thus says the Lord:
“Behold, I will plead your cause
and take vengeance for you.
I will dry up her sea
and make her fountain dry,
37 and Babylon shall become a heap of ruins,
the haunt of jackals,
a horror and a hissing,
without inhabitant.

38 “They shall roar together like lions;
they shall growl like lions' cubs.
39 While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast
and make them drunk, that they may become merry,
then sleep a perpetual sleep
and not wake, declares the Lord.

40 I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter,
like rams and male goats.

41 “How Babylon is taken,
the praise of the whole earth seized!
How Babylon has become
a horror among the nations!
42 The sea has come up on Babylon;
she is covered with its tumultuous waves.
43 Her cities have become a horror,
a land of drought and a desert,
a land in which no one dwells,
and through which no son of man passes.
44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon,
and take out of his mouth what he has swallowed.
The nations shall no longer flow to him;
the wall of Babylon has fallen.

this passage is interesting. the 'burning mountain' could be construed as a volcano erupting which triggers a tsunami that floods 'current order Babylon'.
Note that Bel/ Baal is in Babylon... this would be symbolized as the 'obelisk/ o-bel isk (translated as Baal's shaft) which is prominently figured in the current world order Babylon system of London, Washington DC, & the Vatican. London & Wash DC are under threat of the Cumbre Vieja volcano which would trigger a tsunami to both. Cumbre Vieja - Wikipedia

Rome is under threat from Campi Flegrei Naples’ supervolcano is reaching ‘dangerous’ levels
45 “Go out of the midst of her, my people!
Let every one save his life
from the fierce anger of the Lord!
46 Let not your heart faint, and be not fearful
at the report heard in the land,
when a report comes in one year
and afterward a report in another year,
and violence is in the land,
and ruler is against ruler.

47 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming
when I will punish the images of Babylon;
her whole land shall be put to shame,
and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
48 Then the heavens and the earth,
and all that is in them,
shall sing for joy over Babylon,
for the destroyers shall come against them out of the north,
declares the Lord.
49 Babylon must fall for the slain of Israel,
just as for Babylon have fallen the slain of all the earth.

50 “You who have escaped from the sword,
go, do not stand still!
Remember the Lord from far away,
and let Jerusalem come into your mind:
51 ‘We are put to shame, for we have heard reproach;
dishonor has covered our face,
for foreigners have come
into the holy places of the Lord's house.’

52 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will execute judgment upon her images,
and through all her land
the wounded shall groan.
53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven,
and though she should fortify her strong height,
yet destroyers would come from me against her,
declares the Lord.

54 “A voice! A cry from Babylon!
The noise of great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans!
55 For the Lord is laying Babylon waste
and stilling her mighty voice.
Their waves roar like many waters;
the noise of their voice is raised,
56 for a destroyer has come upon her,
upon Babylon;
her warriors are taken;
their bows are broken in pieces,
for the Lord is a God of recompense;
he will surely repay.
57 I will make drunk her officials and her wise men,
her governors, her commanders, and her warriors;
they shall sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake,
declares the King, whose name is the Lord of hosts.​
just like I substituted 'current world order' Babylon, it would be equally applicable to Jerusalem Babylon controlled by the false prophet.

That's a well thought out theory, Tranquil, thanks for posting your thoughts... but I'm still stuck on the literal interpretation. I'll ask you what I asked the others: if Jeremiah prophesied the literal destruction of literal Jerusalem (and the surrounding nations), and it literally happened, why should we look for a spiritual fulfillment of his prophecies regarding Babylon's destruction?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts;
Michael
 
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Revealing Times

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So you see the prophesy of the total destruction of literal Babylon as having already occurred in history, despite the fact that it was never truly destroyed by a conquering army, but gradually declined and was eventually, very gradually, torn apart for it's building stones [which Jeremiah prophesied would NOT happen when it's destruction occurred (Jeremiah 51:26)].
I am not trying to conflate the two. Babylon can be made desolate and cursed so that it never be inhabited again by being destroyed or without being destroyed. Persia Conquered it, then Alexander the Great defeated Persia and rebuilt Babylon somewhat, but when he died the new leaders did not share his vision of Babylon and he favored another city on the Tigris River. The truth is Babylon became just what Isaiah and Jeremiah prophesied, a deserted place in essence.

The coming destruction of "Babylon" means the coming destruction of the WORLD...Satan's Worldly Kingdoms. Its not the ancient city that is being spoken of. The plagues of God hit the whole world.

As per the real story of Babylon's demise, here is a bit if study I have saved on the Subject:

Isaiah’s predictions fulfilled

In about 482 B.C. Babylon rebelled against their Persian and Median rulers again. Xerxes the king sent his army to capture the city. The army destroyed the temples and took away the idol of the Babylonian god Marduk (Arrian, The Campaigns of Alexander, 7.17.2; Herodotus 1.183). Xerxes may have also destroyed the outer walls of Babylon.

After this punishment the city began to decline in importance. When Alexander the Great defeated the Persians 150 years later, much of Babylon was still destroyed (Arrian 3.16.4). However, many people still lived in Babylon. Alexander decided to rebuild Babylon’s temples and make Babylon a marvelous city again, but he died before he could accomplish his plan.

Babylon abandoned

After Alexander’s death, Seleucus I gained control of a large part of the Middle East, including Babylonia. He did not share Alexander’s grand vision for Babylon. Instead he built a new city called Seleucia, nearby on the Tigris River. An ancient clay tablet shows that Seleucus’ son ordered most of the population of Babylon to move to this new city in 275 B.C. (M.M. Austin, The Hellenistic World From Alexander to the Roman Conquest, 1981, p. 241).

After that time Babylon wasn’t a major city anymore. About 250 years later the Roman writer Strabo wrote, “Seleucia at the present time has become larger than Babylon, whereas the greater part of Babylon is so deserted that one would not hesitate to say…‘The Great City is a desert’” (Geography, 16.1.5, Loeb Classical Library). Before long Babylon was completely empty.

In 1899, German archaeologists went to the area in Iraq called Tell Babil, and they began to dig and uncover parts of ancient Babylon. In 1978, the president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, began to rebuild some of the ancient buildings of Babylon. Some of the temples have been built again and also a palace, some walls and an amphitheater (Amatzia Baram, Culture, History, and Ideology in the Formation of Ba‘thist Iraq, 1968-89, 1991, p. 47).

But today, Babylon is still an empty city. In times of peace tourists can go see the partially rebuilt ruins of Babylon that have remained empty for almost 2,000 years. The city is exactly like Isaiah predicted: “It will never be inhabited, nor will it be settled from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:20).

So Babylon was defeated at times and destroyed at times, but Seleucus decided to build the city named "Selecuia" at another location on the Tigris river and his son ordered most of the population of Babylon to move there in like 275 B.C. The prophesies even sound like its a place that just goes to pot, becomes a heap, becomes run down.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to bring out that the prophecies of the book of Revelation are tied and related to the prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah... our understanding of Revelation must take into account the other prophecies as well. It is my position that Jeremiah's prophecies concerning Babylon's destruction are as of yet unfulfilled in history. Or at the very least there is a near (partial) and far (total) fulfillment of these prophecies.

As per Revelation, the destruction of the Babylon in Revelation is totally different. That is about Gods 21 Judgments on mankind. It will have nothing to do with Jeremiah or Isaiah, however John used the Old Testament to ENCODE the book of Revelation. You have to know the Old Testament well to understand Revelation. Rev. 17 is in Dan. ch. 5. Rev. 12:1-5 is decoded by reading Gen. 37:9 and in and on. Just because we see Old Testament Phraseology in Revelation that doesn't mean anything in reality. Out of 404 verses in Rev. 289 have Old Testament Phraseology.

The Babylon of Revelation is the Kingdoms under Satan, not one City. Why would God judge ONE CITY and not all mankind? All the world? Just look at who gathers together against God via the 6th Vial. Then who God/Jesus desttroyes at the 7th Vial

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Nations are Gathered from where?

1. The European Union and the Beast/Anti-Christ.
2. The Kings of the East ARE NOT China, they are Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc. all Arab nWhenations.
4. Verse 14 then says three demon spirits gathers nations from ALL OVER THE WORLD !!

When Jesus defeats them what dies God see them as?

Rev. 16:19 And the great city(Jerusalem) was divided into three parts(Earthquake), and the cities of the nations fell{BABYLON FALLS} and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

God sees these nations as BABYLON !! Babylon came into His MEMORY !! God sees them as Babylon. That is His name for Satan's Kingdom on earth. Its a Spiritual Realm Thing !!

I guess my main question right now is this (and it is for anyone who has an answer!): if Jeremiah prophesied the literal destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding nations, and it literally happened, why should we look for a spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies regarding Babylon's destruction?

Again, I don't like the implications of the literal Babylonian kingdom theory, but I feel constrained to it by the context of Jeremiah. Help would be appreciated.

You are also missing another angle, I really haven't went back and studied the passages in depth lately, because I already know Babylon will never be inhabited again. But maybe Jeremiah was giving an END TIME DESTRUCTION of the World scenario also.

The one thing we know, Babylon will never be inhabited again.

God Bless.
 
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Davy

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I have been reading the major prophets and came across the unfulfilled prophecies regarding the destruction of Babylon. I am also familiar with the passages in Revelation that speak of a violent, sudden destruction of Babylon. My view regarding the identity of Babylon has been evolving and fuzzy, and I thought perhaps I could gain some insight from the many different viewpoints represented in this forum.

The theories I am familiar with are as follows:

1) Literal Babylon in Iraq
2) Symbolic of Rome
3) Symbolic of Jerusalem
4) Symbolic of the final Antichrist's capitol city
5) Symbolic of the false religion originating at Babel

Any others I have missed?

Please support your choice by explaining why you believe what you do.

Thanks in advance;
Michael

For the last days, the Revelation Babylon is symbolic of Jerusalem in a state of idol worship (i.e., the "image of the beast" of Rev.13).

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus warned of from the Book of Daniel can only be about a temple in Jerusalem. That is where that Daniel prophecy was given about.

In Jesus' Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He gave seven main signs of the end of this world there. The topic of the coming Antichrist He covered in Matt.24:23-26. And He was speaking of the area of Jerusalem, not Rome, not New York, not Brussels, etc.

I also agree with Rev.11 where God's two witnesses are killed as Jerusalem is what God is comparing to endtime Babylon as a symbol.
 
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