SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT vs NEW TESTAMENT

Arsenios said:

My quibble is that we understand that Salvation is the possession of Life Eternal, and that the knowledge you are offering is but a consequence of that possession...
And something tells me you agree...
Arsenios

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The OT believers' spirits were dead, so that their contact with God was through their natural senses. It is only after the death and resurrection of Christ that the Holy Spirit made believers' spirits alive and there was a new relationship with God made through the indwelling Spirit. The Spirit came on OT believers as an anointing, but did not indwell them. Jesus was the first Person to have the Spirit come down (at His baptism) and stay with Him. What gives NT believers eternal life is the new life that has been given to the believer's spirit. The physical body will still die, but the spirit will not. When the final resurrection of the dead happens on the last day, the believer will be resurrected with a new glorified body that will not be subject to death.

This was the conflict that Paul had. He knew that in his heart (and spirit) he wanted to follow the Law of God, but his still sinful physical body with its desires got in the way. This was the flesh warring against the Spirit (in his spirit). This means that the eternal life we have is in our spirit, while the shell of our physical body dies.

fhansen said:

Salvation in the old was realized by a physical promised land, a spiritual one in the new. Both were gifts of God that resulted from obedience of Him, the former obedience being an external one wrought by ones own efforts with the latter one being internally motivated by the indwelling of/ communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', which comes about after we've exhausted our own efforts and realized that 1) we're apart from Him and, 2) we cannot achieve obedience and any life worth living apart from Him. Jesus came to reveal and reconcile us with the Father so that we can now choose "option two", and so be under grace, living by the Spirit, rather than under the Law.

The purpose of this grace, God's life in us, is to produce a justice or righteousness or obedience born by love of Him, the only authentic form of obedience, to justify us, ultimately to perfect us, unto salvation.

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Superb post.....from one “ oldbie “ to another

joinfree said:

Unborn, but aborted babies are personally sinless. Only the Original Sin there.

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I cannot disagree with that

Arsenios said:

I know this is a frustrating topic, and I have been a little brutal in approaching it, but it is astonishing to me that most do not know the difference between Old Testament Salvation and New Testament Salvation... Oscar brought it down to the abidance of the Holy Spirit inaugurated by Christ's Baptism in the Jordan, which the OT Saints did not have - They only had, on his view, dead spirits... Yet Moses' face lit up so bright with the Glory of God that the Israelites could not look at him without a veil... Is that evidence of his spirit being dead? Or temporarily visited? It never went away, that Glory shining forth from his face...

And I really do think that the difference is known in the Western Confessions...

A key concept that can help is found in Paul:
2Co_5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
Old things are passed away;
Behold, all things are become new.
In Christ we are become a new creature...
And all things are become new...

What is this new creature to whom all things are become new?
We had total saturation of man by the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament...
Indeed, that IS Salvation in the OT...
In the New Testament, we have a New Creature...
Not one who is merely saturated from the outside by the Holy Spirit...
But one whose core, whose heart, whose spirit, now HAS the Holy Spirit...
As a new and fundamental part of itself...
Here, in the flesh, upon the earth...
Who thereby IS a MEMBER of the Body of Christ...
Or as Paul says: "The Mystery of the Faith - Christ within us..."
And "For me, to live (is) Christ, to die (is) gain..."
Hence death is a welcome friend in this fallen life...
And Life in thie fallen life is Christ...

It's a big deal...

We live not according to the flesh, but walk according to the Spirit...
And in this we mortify the flesh, deadening it to sensations, pleasure and pain...
The Narrow and Straited Way of the Followers of Christ in afflictions joyously received...

Yet there it is - God outside us saturating us in the OT...
Christ within us in the NT...

Still begging the question of how to enter...
Of entry into Christ's Body
By receiving Christ within us...

Arsenios

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I tend to think that, when the time was ripe in human history, the Spirit was made available to all mankind, as opposed to God targeting certain specific persons in the OT for the purpose of unfolding His plan.

Arsenios said:

Moses?? Abraham?? Isaac?? Isaiah?? Their spirits were dead??
Were they not all enlivened by the Holy Spirit?
Were they not saturated with the Holy Spirit?
Where or how in them did it not indwell?
You mean as He arose from the Baptismal Waters of the Jordan AFTER His Baptism by John? So what did that Sign mean for you and me? Surely you do not mean that we should be Baptized in the Baptism of Jesus unto His Death on the Cross so as to also receive the Abiding of the Holy Spirit, do you? That would be WAY TOO Orthodox a way of understanding...
But even on its face, your account fails history, for the Holy Spirit abided on Moses, did He not?
Are not ALL persons to be given eternal resurrection at the Last Judgement, some unto Life Eternal, and some unto eternal condemnation? But we are all to exist eternally, no?
Who does he thank for getting him out of his OT pickle? So that no longer does he that which he hates, and does not that which he would do? Paul is describing the OT dilemma... He is speaking as one knowing the Law to those knowing the Law...
Turning from the world to God divides a man from himself...
Overcoming the world in God is Divine...
So now we approach the Mystery of the Abidance of the Holy Spirit in man...
Arsenios

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The OT saints did not know of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That indwelling did not happen until after the ascension of Christ, and His sending the Holy Spirit to indwell believers. This happened on the day of Pentecost.

In the OT the Holy Spirit anointed the saints for particular purposes and then went away again. The Spirit did not indwell them. It merely rested on them for a limited period of time. OT testament were not allowed to approach the presence of God in the Tabernacle or the Temple when God was there. He dwelt in the Holy of Holies, and only the chief priest was allowed in there once a year. Anyone else who tried to enter the presence of God died on the spot.

But when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, the presence of God came and indwelt believers. This was something the OT saints never had. This is why the Temple curtain separating off the Holy of Holies was ripped from top to bottom. It signalled that the presence of God would never be there again. The presence of God in the Person of the Holy Spirit was going to be in believers. OT believers had the presence of with them in the things they did, NT believers have the presence in them. That is the difference.

Arsenios said:

Do we not have to be re-born INTO Christ?
Even INTO His very Body?
And into His Death on the Cross?

Is not the Logos the pre-Incarnate Christ?
And Jesus Christ the Incarnate One?
Is not Salvation about RE-birth from above?
OT Saints could not be rebirthed into Christ...
He was not yet incarnate...
And what does that rebirth MEAN?
It means a New Creation...

Enough clues for YOU!

Sleep time for this old man...

Arsenios

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Of course, you are correct.
I often theorize out loud, which is why the mouth has come to fit the foot very well.
Oh well, it's good for the ego, to be humbled.

This is a fascinating discussion, and it brings to mind a few verses...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Therefore, it is by baptism that we enter into Christ.

However, we do not automatically receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of saving faith, as I showed from Scripture in post #16.

Therefore, I do not believe the difference between the OT and NT salvation, is the Holy Spirit within us.

Just as Jesus was conceived by the action of the Holy Spirit, yet did not receive the Holy Spirit until He descended from heaven upon him, at his water baptism, even so we are born again by the action of the Holy Spirit, but are not automatically filled with the Holy Spirit from the moment of the new birth.

Look very closely at Romans 8:
v.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Do you see the difference between verse 10 and verse 11?
From the top: If you have not Christ in you, you do not belong to God at all.
Christ is God, and is thus a Spirit: the Second person of the Trinity.
When Christ was born, he was very God. Why? Because his spirit was the Second Person.
As every human, he was spirit and soul, inhabiting a body. The spirit in Him was God.
That's Who He was!

And when you are born again, HE comes to dwell within you. Thus, you belong to Him.

BUT.
Look at verse 10.
If Christ be in you, the body is dead, because of sin. But your spirit is alive inside, because of the righteousness of Christ! (The quandary of Romans 7:22-25)

However, there's more for the Christian, than living constantly in Romans 7, where he cannot help but sin, though in his mind, he serves God.

There's the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11. Who raised up Christ from the dead? The Father. (Acts 2:24, Romans 6:4, Ephesians 1:19-20, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 1:21)
How? By the Holy Spirit! (1 Peter 3:18)
Now, of course, we also know Christ himself was given power from His Father, to raise Himself, so all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in the resurrection. But my point about Romans 8, is that Paul was actually differentiating between the "Spirit of Christ" and the "Spirit of Him that raised up Christ."
"Him that raised up Christ" is obviously another person of the Trinity. He is identified elsewhere as the Father. And just as the Holy Spirit is the Person through Whom the Father acted elsewhere, even so it is in the resurrection.

We are led into the New Birth by the Spirit of God. But that doesn't mean the Spirit is yet within us.
As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The disciples were told that they knew the Holy Spirit before they were born again, because He was with them, and would be in them.

If Christ dwells in you, you are His own.
BUT if the Spirit of Him Who raised Christ dwells in you, it will resolve the problem of sin reigning in your mortal body, if you yield to that power in your daily life.

But, of course, you need to receive the Holy Ghost AFTER you believe. (Ephesians 1:13, Acts 19:2)
It doesn't happen automatically at the moment of salvation. (Acts 8:12-17 ~If it were automatic, and not always accompanied by an easily recognizable supernatural sign, the Apostles would never have made the trip to Samaria!)

I'm sorry, I wish I could spend all the time I could, in here.
But I just landed another job, which will take a lot of time, so I may be rather scarce from now on.

It's a new creation here and now by virtue of communion with the Trinity

OP: Q:..."SALVATION: OT vs NT ?...

What must an UNBELIEVER "DO" to "BE" "SAVED"?

Arsenios said:

What is Salvation in the Old Testament?
What is it in the New?
What is the difference?
What is the difference in one's experience of either?

Arsenios

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Hey dear friend Arsenios, sorry I haven't answered your other posts we started. But I had knee surgery and was recovery from it. Anyway, I'm back.

Salvation as always been the same in both Testaments of Scripture; namely through Christ Alone, through Faith Alone, by the Grace of God Alone!

The difference in the OT and NT, is that the Covenant of Grace is preached throughout Scripture; from Genesis to Revelation; that Christ came in the flesh to save sinners from the curse of the Law. Through His blood shed and obedience to the broken Covenant of the Law.

The OT saints were saved by Faith in Christ through the preached Gospel. But the Covenant of Grace was not fulfilled until the NT, where Christ upon the Cross proclaimed to all the cosmos that, "IT IS FINISHED"!!!

But the Gospel was preached as early as Genesis 3:15, where God himself preached it to Adam & Eve. That God will send a Redeemer of sinners. To restore us from our fallen state in himself.

I hope this helps. I am trying to be concise as possible, without rambling on.

Arsenios said:

I hope it all went well with your knee, and that you are getting around OK...

I mean, I hope you are not just saying that to make excuses for your lousy arguments from your loopy pain meds!

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Funny guy . I did have knee surgery twice, and waiting for back surgery. A bad injury at work.

There WAS Salvation in the OT - David refers to it in Ps 51 ...

Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation...
And with thy Governing Spirit establish me...

Are you saying that David's Salvation is the same as, say, Peter's, Paul's and John the Evangellist's?

Arsenios

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Yes, I'm saying that David's Salvation is the same as Peter, Paul, and John the Evangelist. There is only one way to Salvation, and that is only found in one person; namely Christ Jesus!