Can a believer commit the unforgivable sin?

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Major1:

The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners.

Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Ephesians 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16).

Source:
Atonement 1: Confession of an ex-“Highper” Calvinist
 
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"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" (Ephesians 2:14-16).

Jesus's atonement satisfies the legal requirement of the Law (condemning sin in the flesh), so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us by our walking after the Spirit (and not after the flesh, i.e. sin).

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).
 
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Major1

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Dear Major1:

After praying and thinking about it some more with Scripture, the way I see the Atonement is like this:

1. Christ died for the sins of the entire world (minus those who worship the beast - see Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8). Jesus was our substitute on the cross for us. He bore our sins within his body and paid the price for the majority of the world's sins. He died in our place. His blood washes away most of all of the world's sins.

2. Christ knocks on the door of everyone's heart (minus those who worship the beast) so as to come in (so He can give them his free love gift - which is Himself).

3. When a man or woman receives Christ (asking for His forgiveness and believing that He died and was risen on their behalf) they are then abiding in Christ (i.e. the spirit portion of Jesus). Christ who dwells in this person is then connected to Christ's physical body in Heaven who paid for their sins. For his physical body and his blood brings atonement and life for men (according to what He said during the Lord's supper). Jesus is able to apply the redemption to a person's life personally by their abiding in Him. An exchange is taking place. Substitutionary Atonement. A person dwelling in Christ gets the benefits (personally) of what He accomplished on the cross for them.

4. If they continue to abide in Christ, they will walk with Christ, and they are going to let the light of Christ shine in their life (i.e. They will obey the Lord's commandments) and they will have continued access to Christ's redemption or body up in Heaven. Their sin will continue to be cleansed personally in their life by Christ's one time sacrifice that was in the past.

I am very glad that you are working to lean and grow in knowledge. Allow me to help you.

You said...........
"He bore our sins within his body and paid the price for the majority of the world's sins."

Now that is incorrect my brother.

1 Peter 3:18........
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

You are trying to tell us that Jesus did not die for unbelief, but that can't be true because there are plenty of people who did not believe in Jesus but then did believe later. If it was unforgivable, then anyone who did not believe in Jesus could ever later be saved.

Then you said..........
"If they continue to abide in Christ, they will walk with Christ, and they are going to let the light of Christ shine in their life (i.e. They will obey the Lord's commandments)".

That is also Biblically incorrect. By saying that "we will obey the Lord's commandments" in order to be saved means that WE re then responsible for staying saved.

I will agree with you that obedience to God proves our love for Him (1 John 5:2-3), and it demonstrates our faithfulness to Him (1 John 2:3-6), it glorifies Him in the world (1 Peter 2:12), and opens avenues of blessing for us (John 13:17).

Also, faith is necessary to please God (Hebrews 11:6), and if our faith is genuine and true, we will live a lifestyle characterized by righteousness, modeling the example set for us by Jesus Christ. We will want to and should strive to obey His commands, not because we have to, but because we want to, because we love Him.

However, when we fail to obey a command or sin in our everyday walk that does not mean we LOSE OUR SALVATION which is what you are trying to say.

If we haven’t been living for Him, if we haven’t been following His commandments, if we’ve been living in and for the world, or we commit a sin, we can be transformed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

As believers we can ask God for forgiveness, and He will give it. And He will choose to forget the sin, just as if we had never committed it in the first place. God is glorified when He extends forgiveness, because it is written in Hebrews 10:16-7..........
“I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. . . . Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more”.
 
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Major1

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Please take note that 1 John 1:7 says that we have to walk in the light of Christ to have all of our sin cleansed and it does not talk about having a belief alone.

It is significant that John talked of WALKING in the light instead of "ACCORDING" to the light.

To walk ACCORDING to the light would require "sinless perfection" and would make felloeship with God impossible for YOU and ME because we are sinners and as humans we SIN.

To WALK IN it, however suggests instead openness and responsiveness to the Light which is of course the Lord Jesus. John DID NOT think of Christians as being able to be sinless at all and he made that very clear in the last part of the verse you choose.

John added these words....."The blood of Jesus His Son purifies from EVERY sin."

So then, the correct exegesis of this verse is that when it affirms that 2 things are true of all believers in Christ who try to live the Christian life........
A). They are in fellowship with God.
B). They are BEING CLEANSED from every sin.

So then, we who are born again and commit a sin AFTER being saved are under the cleansing power of the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

That clearly and effectively means that we are forgiven of the sin we commit when we commit it and it also means that we do not lose our salvation because we do commit a sin.
 
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By this thinking Jason 1 sin and you are lost. For 1 sin and you are guilty of all.

That is absolutely correct my brother.

It is also WHY Jesus died to pay for ALL of our sins because God knew that we as sinners can not ever in this human life time achieve a state of sinlessness.
 
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Major1

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Please take note that 1 John 1:7 says that we have to walk in the light of Christ to have all of our sin cleansed and it does not talk about having a belief alone.

But the Scriptures actually say..........

John 3:16.....
“For God so loved the world that he gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life” .

Acts 16:31.......
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

In an effort to distinguish true faith from mere assent, some, YOU have found it necessary to add requirements to the single requirement of faith for salvation. In keeping with this goal, they/YOU have required a person who wants to be saved to accept the lordship of Christ and to promise to serve the Lord from then on and to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

This has been made a prerequisite to faith. This view is contradicted in Scripture where works follow faith but do not precede it. That is why in Ephesians 2:9 the apostle Paul makes it very explicit when he says, “Not by works so that no one can boast.”

He goes on to say that we have to be renewed to do good works, “for we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” in Eph. 2:10.

God bless you Jason and I pray that you will consider all of these tings.
 
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"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" (Ephesians 2:14-16).

Jesus's atonement satisfies the legal requirement of the Law (condemning sin in the flesh), so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us by our walking after the Spirit (and not after the flesh, i.e. sin).

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 9:3-4).

All of that is true Jason. However, again, "Walking after the Spirit" does not in any way mean that we must keep the commandments to stay saved.

You psted the wrong Scripture under #3.
 
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Major1:

I was doing some reading today, and I came across this verse.

"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Romans 4:7).

This is a perfect example why I have suggested to you to get into a Bible believing Bible study my brother.

Romans 4:7 - 8 is a quote of Psalms 32:1-2 when Israel was under the law and sin was dealt with at the Mercy Seat by the application of a blood sacrifice that COVERED mans sin.

It does not apply to us today as we are under grace instead of the Law and sin is washed away and not covered.
 
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That is a false assumption and a dim view on behalf of the power of God and believers in the faith.
Jesus said with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
This would include obedience.
There are many verses on how the believer can walk uprightly and overcome sin.
To ignore them one would have to take a pair of scissors and cut them out of one's Bible.
Today, unbelievers can overcome the sin of alcoholism.
Imagine how much more what a believer can do if they allow Jesus to do the good work in their life?
For Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Also, Revelation 14:3-5 says the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God.

Jason, In this lifetime, we will never be perfectly victorious over sin according to 1 John 1:8, but that should still be our goal. With God’s help, and by following the principles of His Word, we can progressively deal with sin and become more and more like Christ.
 
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I am very glad that you are working to lean and grow in knowledge. Allow me to help you.

You said...........
"He bore our sins within his body and paid the price for the majority of the world's sins."

Now that is incorrect my brother.

So you believe that Jesus died for the sins of those who will worship the beast in the future?
Are you saying those who worship the beast have a chance at salvation?

Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 are very clear in the fact that they say that their names were not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Doesn't one's name have to be in the book of life in order for them to have their sins paid for even legally?

I believe the Scriptures are saying that while Adam's sin condemned everyone, Jesus's death and resurrection reversed the curse (See 1 Corinthians 15). So a person is saved by Christ's sacrifice and their name is in the book of life when they are a baby (because babies are innocent). For if a baby dies they go to be with the Lord. However, if a baby grows up and they fall into sin and unbelief like most do, sin separates them from God and their name is blotted out of the book of life, and they need to accept Jesus as their Savior and ask His forgiveness and believe that He died and was risen on their behalf) so as to be saved again (and have their name re-added to the book of life).

An example of this would be the Parable of the Prodigal Son. For it is like a parallel of a person's life with Christ. A person is saved as a baby, but when they leave the father (by going into a life of sin) they are lost and are dead spiritually. But if they return home back to the father willing to repent (on the father's terms - which would include Jesus), they become alive again and are found of him (i.e. they become born again spiritually and they desire to be a hired hand, i.e. a servant).

You said:
1 Peter 3:18........
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

Jesus fulfilled the legal requirement of the law and condemned sin in the flesh. Jesus handled the sin problem at calvary, but that does not mean everyone is saved (as I am sure you agree). Faith needs to be added to the equation for a person's sins to be forgiven personally. However, faith (lived out) is described as having works and faith (lived out) is never a belief alone (See James 2:17-18, and James 2:24). Also, Scripture says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). 1 John 3:10 says he that does not righteousness is not of God. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. These can be singular acts. If one lies just once, are they doing righteousness? No.

You said:
You are trying to tell us that Jesus did not die for unbelief, but that can't be true because there are plenty of people who did not believe in Jesus but then did believe later. If it was unforgivable, then anyone who did not believe in Jesus could ever later be saved.

John 16:8-9 essentially says that the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of it's sin because they believe not on the Lord Jesus Christ. How can this be if Jesus paid for their sin of unbelief? There should be no punishment or reproving of sin if Jesus paid for it, right? So this means that Jesus merely paid for sin on the cross provisionally in a legal sense (like writing a check as a payment to pay off our debts) so as to offer all men (except those who worship the beast) the free gift of salvation (for them to receive it, i.e. receive the check and pay off their debts and then remain faithful by not going into debt again).

You said:
Then you said..........
"If they continue to abide in Christ, they will walk with Christ, and they are going to let the light of Christ shine in their life (i.e. They will obey the Lord's commandments)".

That is also Biblically incorrect. By saying that "we will obey the Lord's commandments" in order to be saved means that WE re then responsible for staying saved.

I will agree with you that obedience to God proves our love for Him (1 John 5:2-3), and it demonstrates our faithfulness to Him (1 John 2:3-6), it glorifies Him in the world (1 Peter 2:12), and opens avenues of blessing for us (John 13:17).

Also, faith is necessary to please God (Hebrews 11:6), and if our faith is genuine and true, we will live a lifestyle characterized by righteousness, modeling the example set for us by Jesus Christ. We will want to and should strive to obey His commands, not because we have to, but because we want to, because we love Him.

However, when we fail to obey a command or sin in our everyday walk that does not mean we LOSE OUR SALVATION which is what you are trying to say.

If we haven’t been living for Him, if we haven’t been following His commandments, if we’ve been living in and for the world, or we commit a sin, we can be transformed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

As believers we can ask God for forgiveness, and He will give it. And He will choose to forget the sin, just as if we had never committed it in the first place. God is glorified when He extends forgiveness, because it is written in Hebrews 10:16-7..........
“I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. . . . Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more”.

Two things here.

#1. Grace + works (that follow) = A true faith and a true salvation.
In addition to God's saving grace being necessary for salvation, works are also necessary for salvation. For even you said that a true believer is defined by a life of works and holiness. You roughly said that anyone who is living in lots of sin is not saved. I agree. So works and holiness is a requirement for salvation. Granted, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace apart from works. For the thief on the cross was saved without any works; And if any believer sins, they do not get right with God by doing a good work, but they get right with God by confessing their sins. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9). Anyways, if you were to click on the following spoiler button, you will see more verses that show that good works are necessary for salvation. Also, included is a short list of verses that show that believers can walk uprightly in this life, as well.

In addition to God's saving grace, here are verses that show that works are also necessary as a part of the salvation process:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (KJ21).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).


Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


#2. Serious sin (or "Sins that Lead unto Death") is separation from God.
(a) Adam and Eve died spiritually and were separated from God by their one sin.
(b) Peter tells Simon to repent of his one sin in trying to pay the Holy Spirit and he tells him to repent by way of prayer towards God (in seeking his forgiveness) in the hope that he may be forgiven. Note: There is no indication Simon did not truly believe when he accepted the gospel. So he was a believer.
(c) Ananais and Sapphira both are instantly killed for their sin of lying to the Holy Ghost and a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. If they were saved, then why would they fear? Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain. We are also told not to fear what man can do to our body but we are to fear the One who can cast a soul into Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). If they were false converts, then that does not relate to them (the church) so as to have any kind of fear.
(d) Judas fell by his transgression. Jesus said to the twelve that he sends them out as sheep among wolves (Judas included). So Judas was a sheep at one time and he later became a devil or a wolf. Anyways, to see a full summary of verses that show that serious sin is spiritual death and or separation from God, click on the following spoiler button.

The Bible teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD,

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

I pray that the verses I have shown have helped you to maybe see what I am saying with God's Word.

May God's love shine upon you;
And may you please be well.
 
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I’ve heard nothing of the testimony which is the basis of Christian living you know about the candle under a bushel.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:15-17
 
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Major1

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I’ve heard nothing of the testimony which is the basis of Christian living you know about the candle under a bushel.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:15-17

This is the 3rd time you have put words into my mouth. THis is not a question but a statement.

You said..............
"So you believe that Jesus died for the sins of those who will worship the beast in the future?
Are you saying those who worship the beast have a chance at salvation?"

Is that what YOU think I have been saying to you????

However the answer IMO is Yes.

Jesus died for the sins of every person who ever lived or who will ever walk the earth.

I say that because that is what the Bible says Jason.The Bible tells us in John 2:2........
[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Did God say that?
Can God lie?

While He offers everyone forgiveness and salvation, unfortunately not everyone will accept His gifts. Jesus, God’s Son, saved the world from sin, death in hell, and the power of the devil. He did this through His own perfect life, His death, and His resurrection but each sinner must believe and be saved.

John 3:16-18.............
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Did God say that?
Can God lie?


And a few verses later Jesus continues, saying in John 3:36.........
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life…” !

Having said that allow me to also say that NO ONE who has heard the gospel today and rejected Christ, will not be able to be saved AFTER THE RAPTURE.

2 Thess. 2:8-10...........
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

After the Rapture the gospel changes. To be saved during the rule of the A/C one must come into contact with one of the 144 K Jews, believe upon Christ and then OBEY THE Commandments.

Rev. 14:12......
"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
 
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James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole (Mosaic) Law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Please go back and read James 2 again. You will notice that his point was not that we could not keep the Law but that his point was that we must keep the Royal Law in context of not having respect of persons. The beginning of the chapter is about James telling these believers not to give favor to rich believers over poor believers. James is saying they are breaking the 2nd greatest commandment "To love your neighbor" by doing that (i.e. the Royal Law). This is not the Old Law alone because James is not condemning the idea in not doing this particular law. James wants us to love our neighbor and to not give favor to rich brethren over the poor brethren.
 
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Four-Fold Salvation
Preface

In 1929 we wrote a booklet entitled "A Threefold Salvation" based upon the instruction we had received during our spiritual infancy. Like most of that early teaching, it was defective because inadequate. As we continued our study of God’s Word further light has been granted us on this subject — yet alas how ignorant we still are — and this has enabled us to see that, in the past, we had started at the wrong point, for instead of beginning at the beginning, we commenced almost in the middle. instead of salvation from sin being threefold, as we once supposed, we now perceive it to be fourfold. How good is the Lord in vouchsafing us additional light, yet it is now our duty to walk therein, and, as Providence affords us opportunity, to give it out. May the Holy Spirit so graciously guide us that God may be glorified and His people edified.

The subject of God’s "so-great-salvation" (Heb 2:3), as it is revealed to us in the Scriptures and made known in Christian experience, is worthy of a life’s study. Any one who supposes that there is now no longer any need for him to prayerfully search for a fuller understanding of the same needs to ponder "If any man think he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know" (1Co 8:2). The fact is that the moment any of us really takes it for granted that he already knows all that there is to be known on any subject treated of in Holy Writ, he at once cuts himself off from any further light thereon. That which is most needed by all of us in order to a better understanding of Divine things is not a brilliant intellect, but a truly humble heart and a teachable spirit, and for that we would daily and fervently pray, for we possess it not by nature.

The subject of Divine salvation has, sad to say, provoked age-long controversy and bitter contentions even among Christians. There is comparatively little agreement even upon this elementary vet vital truth. Some have insisted that salvation is by Divine grace, others have argued that it is by human endeavor. A number have sought to defend the middle position, and while allowing that the salvation of a lost sinner must be by Divine grace, were not willing to concede that it is by Divine grace alone, alleging that God’s grace must be plussed by something from the creature, and very varied have been the opinions of what that ‘something must be — baptism, church-membership, the performing of good works, holding out faithful to the end, etc. On the other hand, there are those who not only grant that salvation is by grace alone, but who deny that God uses any means whatever in the accomplishment of His eternal purpose to save His elect — overlooking the fact that the sacrifice of Christ is the grand "means’!

It is true that the Church of God was blessed with super-creation blessings, being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated unto the adoption of children, and nothing could or can alter that grand fact. It is equally true that if sin had never entered the world, none had been in need of salvation from it. But sin has entered, and the Church fell in Adam and came under the curse and condemnation of God’s Law. Consequently, the elect, equally with the reprobate, shared in the capital offence of their federal head, and partake of its fearful entail: "In Adam all die" (1Co 15:22): "By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Rom 5:18). The result of this is, that all are "alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts" (Eph 4:18), so that the members of the mystical Body of Christ are "by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph 2:3), and hence they are alike in dire need of God’s salvation.

Even when there is fundamental soundness in their views upon Divine salvation many have such inadequate and one-sided conceptions that other aspects of this truth, equally important and essential, are often overlooked and tacitly denied. How many, for example, would be capable of giving a simple exposition of the following texts: "Who hat/i saved us" (2Ti 1:9), "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling’ (Phi. Heb 2:12), "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed’ (Rom 13:11). Now those verses do not refer to three different salvations, but to three separate aspects of one, and unless we learn to distinguish sharply among them, there can be naught but confusion and cloudiness in our thinking. Those passages present three distinct phases and stages of salvation: salvation as an accomplished fact, as a present process, and as a future prospect.

So many today ignore these distinctions, jumbling them together. Some contend for one and some argue against the other two; and vice versa. Some insist they are already saved, and deny that they are now being saved. Some declare that salvation is entirely future, and deny that it is in any sense already accomplished. Both are wrong. The fact is that the great majority of professing Christians fail to see that "salvation" is one of the most comprehensive terms in all the Scriptures, including predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. They have far too cramped an idea of the meaning and scope of the word "salvation" (as it is used in the Scriptures), narrowing its range too much, generally confining their thoughts to but a simple phase. They suppose "salvation" means no more than the new birth or the forgiveness of sins. Were one to tell them that salvation is a protracted process, they would view him with suspicion; and if he affirmed that salvation is something awaiting us in the future, they would at once dub him a heretic. Yet they would be the ones to err.

Ask the average Christian, Are you saved? and he answers, Yes, I was saved in such and such a year; and that is as far as his thoughts on the subject go. Ask him, To what do you owe your salvation? and "the finished work of Christ" is the sum of his reply. Tell him that each of those answers is seriously defective, and he strongly resents your aspersion. As an example of the confusion that now prevails, we quote the following from a tract on Phi. Heb 2:12 : "To whom are those instructions addressed? The opening words to the Epistle tell us: ‘To the saints in Christ Jesus.’ . . . Thus they were all believers! and could not be required to work for their salvation, for they already possessed it." Alas that so few people today perceive anything wrong in such a statement. Another "Bible teacher" tells us that "save thyself" (1Ti 4:16) must refer to deliverance from physical ills, as Timothy was already saved spiritually. True, yet it is equally true that he was then in the process of being saved, and also a fact that his salvation was then future.

Let us now supplement the first three verses quoted and show that there are other passages in the New Testament which definitely refer to each distinct tense of salvation. First salvation is an accomplished fact: "Thy faith hath saved thee" (Luk 7:50); "by grace ye have been saved" (Greek, and so translated in the R. V. — Eph 2:8); "according to his mercy he saved us" (Tit 3:5). Second, salvation as a present process, in course of accomplishment; not yet completed: "Unto us which are being saved" (1Co 1:18 — R. V. and Bagster Interlinear); "Them that believe to the saving (not the ‘salvation’) of the soul" (Heb 10:39). Third, salvation as a future process: "Sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb 1:14); "receive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls" (Jas 1:21); "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time" (1Pe 1:5). Thus, by putting together these different passages we are clearly warranted in formulating the following statement: every genuine Christian has been saved, is now being saved, and will yet be saved — how and from what we shall endeavor to show.

As further proof of how many-sided is the subject of God’s great salvation, and how that in Scripture it is viewed from various angles, take the following: by grace are ye saved" (Eph 2:8); "saved by his (Christ’s) life," i.e., by His resurrection life (Rom 5:9); "thy faith hath saved thee" (Luk 7:50); "the engrafted Word which is able to save your souls" (Jas 1:21); "saved by hope" (Rom 8:24); "saved; yet so as by fire" (1Co 3:15); "the like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us" (1Pe 3:21). Ah, my reader, the Bible is not a lazy man’s book, nor can it be soundly expounded by those who do not devote the whole of their time, and that for years, to its prayerful study. It is not that God would bewilder us, but that He would humble us, drive us to our knees, make us dependent upon His Spirit. Not to the proud — those who are wise in their own esteem — are its heavenly secrets opened.

In like manner it may be shown from Scripture that the cause of salvation is not a single one, as so many suppose — the blood of Christ. Here, too, it is necessary to distinguish between things which differ. First, the originating cause of salvation is the eternal purpose of God, or, in other words, the predestinating grace of the Father. Second, the meritorious cause of salvation is the mediation of Christ, this having particular respect to the legal side of things, or, in other words, His fully meeting the demands of the Law on the behalf and in the stead of those He redeems. Third, the efficient cause of salvation is the regenerating and sanctifying operations of the Holy Spirit, which respect the experimental side of it; or, in other words, the Spirit works in us what Christ purchased for us. Thus, we owe our personal salvation equally to each Person in the Trinity, and not to one (the Son) more than to the others. Fourth, the instrumental cause is our faith, obedience, and perseverance: though we are not saved because of them, equally true is it that we cannot be saved (according to God’s appointment) without them.

In the opening paragraph, we have stated that in our earlier effort we erred as to the starting point. In writing upon a threefold salvation we began with salvation from the penalty of sin, which is our justification. But our salvation does not begin there, as we knew well enough even then: alas that we so blindly followed our erring preceptors. Our salvation originates, of course, in the eternal purpose of God, in His predestinating of us to everlasting glory. "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2Ti 1:9). That has reference to God’s decree of election: His chosen people were then saved completely, in the Divine purpose, and all that we shall now say has to do with the performing of that purpose, the accomplishing of that decree, the actualization of that salvation.
E-Sword
 
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This is a perfect example why I have suggested to you to get into a Bible believing Bible study my brother.

I can say the same to you, but it would not be nice of me to say that. You are not God to know my life and my walk with God and how I study the Scriptures. Please stick the discussion of the topic at hand with Scripture and refrain from insulting personal comments please.

You said:
Romans 4:7 - 8 is a quote of Psalms 32:1-2 when Israel was under the law and sin was dealt with at the Mercy Seat by the application of a blood sacrifice that COVERED mans sin.

It does not apply to us today as we are under grace instead of the Law and sin is washed away and not covered.

It's a metaphor that is saying the same thing as washed away. If not, then Paul's point about sins being forgiven without works would be null and void. But just in case you think this is not all my interpretation alone, here a few commentaries from other believers.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(7) Forgiven.—The stress is upon this word; “whose sins are not abolished, but forgiven; not annihilated, but covered up, removed from sight, hidden by the absolving grace of God.”

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered: such whom God justifies by imputing the righteousness of his Son to them, he removes their iniquities from them, which is meant by their being "forgiven", and that "as far as the east is from the west", Psalm 103:12; he casts them behind his back, Isaiah 38:17, and into the depths of the sea, Micah 7:19, so that they shall never be found more: such whom he clothes with the robe of righteousness, and garments of salvation, Isaiah 61:10, "their sins are covered"; from the eye of divine justice, and shall never be seen more, or be brought against them to their condemnation, and therefore must be happy persons.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
[covered] The literal translation of the Hebrew word very often translated “atoned for.”

Yes, sin was not permanently dealt with in the Old Testament. They had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year. Yet, when Jesus came, and died for us, His sacrifice provides a way of atonement that cleanses sin (or washes away sin) forever. However, this would only be past sin, though. Nowhere does Scripture teach that we are forgiven of present and future sin; It only teaches that past sins are cleansed (See 2 Peter 1:9).
 
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Jason, In this lifetime, we will never be perfectly victorious over sin according to 1 John 1:8, but that should still be our goal. With God’s help, and by following the principles of His Word, we can progressively deal with sin and become more and more like Christ.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.
 
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All of that is true Jason. However, again, "Walking after the Spirit" does not in any way mean that we must keep the commandments to stay saved.

Yes, it does.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:3-8).

#1. It says the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (i.e. law keeping).
#2. Who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
#3. The carnal mind is at enmity against God.
#4. They that are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:3).

Die here is obviously talking about spiritual death because all people physically die. It would be no revelation to tell folks that they will physically die. There is no guarantee on when a person is going to live or die regardless of whether they live righteously or sinful.

You said:
You psted the wrong Scripture under #3.

It was a typo. I hit the 9 instead of the 8. I have quoted from Romans 8 more times than I care to count.
 
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