In wake of church shootings, pastors and worshipers arm themselves to shoot back

As long as there are Godless atheists willing to kill True Believers in Christ in order to further their agendas, we should be armed at all times. Satan and his followers will be stopped as prophesy states.

He is Risen 72 said:

As long as there are Godless atheists willing to kill True Believers in Christ in order to further their agendas, we should be armed at all times. Satan and his followers will be stopped as prophesy states.

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When you need to blaspheme the Holy Name of Jesus and engage in the sacrilegious profaning of God's house and justify it to yourself, just invoke the bogeyman.

-CryptoLutheran

Kenny'sID said:

Do you think we should go out and work for a living, or just sit here, do nothing and wait for God to feed us and put a roof over our head with no input from us?

In God we trust, Samuel just keeps us from meeting him face to face before our time.

Or some wise XXX comment like that.

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• 2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
• 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
• 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
• 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
• 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
• 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
• 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
• 8Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
• 9Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
• 10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
• 11For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
• 12Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
• 13But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

ViaCrucis said:

When you need to blaspheme the Holy Name of Jesus and engage in the sacrilegious profaning of God's house and justify it to yourself, just invoke the bogeyman.

-CryptoLutheran

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Under Obama, all the shooters were Islamic extremists. Under President Trump all the shooters are atheists, I wonder why that is.

Zoii said:

Isn't this an indictment on the state gun related deaths/gun laws if you have to be fully armed when you go to church?

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More than a few American evangelicals have a paranoid worldview full of conspiracy theories, a general mistrust of the government and people outside their group, and a lack of ambiguity or subtlety, and having weapons is part of being "self-sufficient" in a world perceived to be chaotic. "Good guys" with guns never make mistakes or get angry or misuse weapons, in their minds, justifying an increasingly armed society.

Gun culture in the US is a topic that one could spend alot of time explaining, especially to those outside the US. The documentary I mentioned earlier (Armor of Light) looks at it from a Christian perspective.


Half of church shootings involve perpetrators that belonged to the church, which indicates alot of these are down to incidents that escalate (perhaps due to bad tempers) and somebody decides to bring in a gun:

The truth about church shootings - CNN

Religious bias accounts for only 6% of shootings. That's clearly not a significant motive for church shootings. So it was disquieting to hear one of our church elders talk about anti-Christian bias as a motivation for stepping up security (I wish Lutherans of all people would not buy into this kind of rhetoric I associate more with the Religious Right). The facts don't show this to be a significant part of church shootings in America.

Volante Nocturno said:

Self defense is not retaliation...Jesus even told His disciples that if they did not have a sword to go buy one. A sword is not for stabbing pickles out of a jar.

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I agree with response #15--which I believe was directed to your response. However, consider the full story in Scripture, rather than your one verse.

Yes, for some reason (assumably a teaching moment), Jesus told them to go and buy swords.

POINT #1: The 11 remaining apostles bought 2, then Jesus said "it is enough". Right there, that makes no sense.

POINT #2: Then, Peter used your logic. I'm sure he was thinking, Jesus said I would deny Him when the going got rough. I said I wouldn't and I'll show Him that I'm courageous enough to stand with Him, even if nobody does. So, Peter takes one of the swords to begin defending Jesus against the mob coming against Him. Pretty brave, huh? But, what happens next?

"Then Jesus said to him, "Put up your sword into its place: for all those that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give me more than 12 legions of angels? But, how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" (Matt 26:52-54). Peter had to be in shock. This had to feel for him like the "You are the rock I will build my church on" to "Get behind me, satan!" moment. I'm sure he was about as confused as one could be. He was told to buy a sword. He did. Then, he did the natural thing and used it, ONLY TO GET CHASTISED for doing so. I have always considered the "denying" as the moment where satan was sifting Peter like wheat. But, that sifting may have started here with the temptation to use the sword.

Later, we see how James (John's brother) is martyred. When King Herod sees how happy he makes the jews doing that, he imprisons Peter with the same goal. Yet, an angel is sent by God, either in response to the prayer of the saints or just because God was establishing that He can stop anything He wants, because He is sovereign. God could have done the same for James. He didn't. Why is James allowed to be killed and not Peter?

Today, every visible church in the US makes it clear when they meet and where they meet. Most don't have security. It wouldn't be hard for a shooter to target most of them. So, why do some and not others get attacked? In contrast, many churches in other countries don't make it clear when they meet or where they meet and yet at some point, someone goes in and attacks. Why?

I guess it boils down to whether or not you believe in a divine plan or chance, accidents, and coincidences. Maybe God cares more about how we respond to what happens to us than preservation of the easy life here on earth.

He is Risen 72 said:

Under Obama, all the shooters were Islamic extremists. Under President Trump all the shooters are atheists, I wonder why that is.

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I am not so sure about that. I believe that there were quite a lot of school shootings in the US under Obama.

GoldenBoy89 said:

Talk about trusting in God... Looks like more people put their faith in Mr. Samuel Colt instead.

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It is Mr. Pietro Beretta for me.

To think that you will go calmly and sweetly to your martyrdom is ridiculous. Do you think the people in that church sat quietly in the pews and said, "Can the next bullet be for me, please." This is absurdity. Whatever kind of Christianity promotes this, I do not recognize.

The martyrs did quietly go to their martyrdom, have you read any of their stories? I doubt it. Have you read of Martyrs hugging the stakes before they were burnt? I have. There was a woman who lost her husband and son to the flames of Rome, but said she had another son who was willing to die rather than reject
his faith. You are cowards who would deny you faith for your right to bear arms.

If you come to this country I would take you to see the Martyrs Memorial just 9 miles from here on a site known as Martyrs Fields.

There is no such thing as denying your faith to bear arms. They are perfectly compatible. I often carry a gun and I have never felt I was compromising my faith. Not everything the early church did was automatically right just because it was the early church. People in chains do not have a lot of choices. What happed back then does not apply to this situation. Because some martyr died 1900 years ago is not necessarily my example in a church shooting.

ViaCrucis said:

I don't recall David slaying Goliath in the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

-CryptoLutheran

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Gods people are God's people.

If you guys think defending your family and friends from the likes of some maniac in any way makes a statement as to your faith in God, then have at it.

I personally will be ready and willing if need be to show my faith and hope God directs the bullet.

ViaCrucis said:

I seem to recall that Christ gave us a new covenant in His blood. Using the Old Testament to reject the New is objectively bad heremeneutics. Christ is the Object of our faith and all Scripture is understood through and in Him; not the other way around.

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Where did Christ say we should not defend ourselves against murderers.

Someone said earlier guns aren't always the answer, but we aren't talking always, we are talking in a case like this where they absolutely are the answer.

God was willing to kill in order to protect his own, so take it up with him....tell him what a bad influence he is.

Zoii said:

Isn't this an indictment on the state gun related deaths/gun laws if you have to be fully armed when you go to church?

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I'm thinking whether Christians refuse to pick up their guns or refuse to put them down, some individuals will make something of it.

To some, the Christian is going to be darned if they do and darned if they don't. I mention that because I get the idea that's exactly what we are up against with a few here, but I won't name any names.

section9+1 said:

To think that you will go calmly and sweetly to your martyrdom is ridiculous. Do you think the people in that church sat quietly in the pews and said, "Can the next bullet be for me, please." This is absurdity. Whatever kind of Christianity promotes this, I do not recognize.

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A young man from a town about 8 miles from here was hauled before a tribunal of bishops and asked if he believed there was a 'real presence' in the mass. He replied "I believe as Frith does." The bishops replied "Why, Frith is a heretic and condemned to be burnt." "With that I am content", he replied. John Frith was one of the most learned man of his Age. John Frith and Andrew Hewet were burnt at the stake in Smithfield, London, on July 4th 1533.

So?

I don't think we have had any shootings in church in this country, or I don't remember one. If there was someone will no doubt correct me.

I think there was a church that had an inflamable substance through the door some years ago.

I think that there is a difference between being martyred by a State or Religious authority and being attacked by a lunatic bent on committing murder.