SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT vs NEW TESTAMENT

Blood Bought 1953 said:

As for your second question , I do not know about the Mose thingy.

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PollyJetix said:

Well... when I was born again, as an 8 yr old, I was assured that I automatically received the Holy Spirit at the moment I had faith.
But I learned differently from the Scriptures.
yes, there are scriptures that speak of the experiences of the early church, talking about how they received the Holy Spirit when they first believed... but we must remember who is being spoken to. They all lived in the time frame of the Apostles.

And what was the doctrine of the Apostles, on this matter?

Look at Acts 8. These were new believers who were genuinely born again, and were already baptized.
Yet, they had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

(Okay, I know you are immediately thinking, "But that was BECAUSE...."
I am not talking about "BECAUSE", here.
I'm talking about "HOW?"!)

HOW could they have been already born again, and yet have not already received the Holy Spirit?
And HOW did the Apostles know they hadn't?
Was there some hidden way super-spiritual church leaders could know?
No. It wasn't a mysterious knowing. It was by an outward sign that they knew.

Look at Acts 8:14-16. The reason the Apostles knew the believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit, was simple. The Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon them!
And Acts 8:17-18 proves it was not a hidden, mysterious mystery, only perceived by super-spiritual Christians. How do I know? Because it was observed by Simon the sorcerer, a very carnal man!

Now, as to the doctrine of the Apostles I was talking about:
If the Apostles had held the doctrine that most of Christianity does today, they would never have gone down to Samaria... instead, they would have assured the believers that they automatically and silently had received the moment they first believed!

After all, the church was under persecution: Stephen had just been martyred, and all the Christians had fled from Jerusalem, except for the Apostles, who had gone into hiding, of course.

But this issue was important enough to bring them out onto the open highway, traveling to Samaria, in serious danger... just to make sure some new believers got the whole package deal...

Because they DID NOT teach that everyone automatically received the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Nor did they teach that some receive the Holy Spirit without any outward sign of it.
The entire story makes no sense, if they did.

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I propose the church return to the doctrine of the Apostles.

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joinfree said:

Eastern Orthodox Church knows:
1) Old Testament good humans, including
Abraham and King David, were taken into hell. 2) Holy Baptism in Holy Church. 3) There are saints in New Testament (so they do not suffer in hell after the earthly life), in Old Testament there are good people.

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Oscarr said:

Salvation in the Old Testament is where the believer is being faithful to God by keeping the requirements of the Law and looking forward in faith to the Messiah to come. We know who were saved because they "did right in the sight of the Lord".

Salvation in the New Testament is receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, repenting from willful sin and being baptised in the Name of Jesus as a public committal of their life to the Lordship of Christ. This justifies the believer before God and he or she is filled with the Holy Spirit to enable them to develop themselves in their sanctification and holiness before Him.

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JoeP222w said:

Salvation is by the grace of God alone through faith alone. Same as the New Testament. Abraham's righteous was credited to him by his faith.
See above.
No difference whatsoever.
Irrelevant. God's truth does not change based on a person's experience.

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JoeP222w said:

Ephesians 1:7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, (8) which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight (9) making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ (10) as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

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Francis Drake said:

1). Salvation in the OT was effectively deliverance from Philistine, famine and plague. Throughout the OT scriptures, this is made very clear.

2). Contrary to common thinking, the NT does not start at Matthew chapter1 verse1. If anything the NT starts when Jesus declares it at Matt26v28 For this is My blood of the covenant, being poured out for many, for forgiveness of sins.

3). Given the above, Matthew Chapter1 through Chapter26 is still within the Old Covenant period, and everything Jesus taught was aimed at OT people who lived within an Old Covenant understanding. Jesus did not come to contradict that but to reveal its veracity.

4). Given the above, when Jesus spoke about "Salvation", he wasn't talking about "heaven when you're dead" as most Christians think, but the intervention of heaven on earth, just as it had always been.

5)"Salvation" still means the same today as it did in the OT.
Jesus's sacrifice was meant to be far more than rescuing people for heaven, it was meant to transform their lives and the lives of their nations whilst still on earth.

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St_Worm2 said:

Hi Arsenios, millions (or perhaps billions?) of animals were sacrificed to atone for the sins of the people in ancient Israel, both individually and collectively, because we know that "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" .. Hebrews 9:22.

Of course, we also know that "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" .. Hebrews 10:4.

So that leaves those in the OT in a bit of a pickle, doesn't it? ... unless, of course, the atonement for believers' sins prior to Christ is the same as it is for us today

As I believe Blood Bought 1953 and others have already mentioned, salvation in the OT is by Grace through Faith, just like it is today. We look back in faith to the day of our Savior, just like believers in the OT looked forward in faith to the day of that very same Savior.

Salvation is about Christ alone and what He did for us. He is our innocence, our only righteousness, and the atonement for our sins .. cf 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 3:21-28 It seems to me that the only thing we believers (OT/NT) add to our salvation personally is the sin that makes it necessary.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - BTW, those were some excellent, thought-provoking questions. Thanks

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Danthemailman said:

Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). - How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?

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dreadnought said:

Like I said, I don't know that I fully understand why the Lord decided to appear in human form. He went about teaching, and his teachings were written down for future generations. He died on the cross to save us from our sin. Those are two good reasons, in themselves.

As for the Scripture reading from Hebrews, it’s hard to understand, taken out of context. You might have to read the entire book of Hebrews to understand these two verses. What the Lord provides for us, the "better thing," is spiritual paradise – peace of mind.

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