Was Satan a Created Being and Fallen Angel?

TribulationSigns said:

It is hard for you to believe because we have been indoctrinated by church traditions that Satan was a created being or fallen angel but the Bible did not say this. I will explain more on this with Scripture because it's late and I am heading to bed.

Thank you.

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No, I was never taught that about Satan in my church. I can't remember them ever talking about Satan (which is too bad). I will wait for your Scripture.

TribulationSigns said:

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was a man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. In point of fact, the very name "Tyrus" means a stone! So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here. It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But Angels do not qualify! We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Exo_25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
Exo_25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
2Ch 5:8 For the cherubims spread forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:


Everything in the tabernacle that Moses was to make was to be done according to a pattern God showed him. It was a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. There were 2 cherubim's on the ark, each with 2 wings. These were the covering cherubs---they covered the glory of God from the angels. The cherubim's placed in the garden of Eden were not the covering cherubs, they were cherubs--to keep Adam and Eve from returning to the garden and eating from the tree of life and living forever. Cherubim's are depicted as having 2 wings. The covering cherubs stand in the presence of God and use those wings to shield the angels from the full glory of God shinning on them. Adam never had any wings.

Adam was not in heaven----
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mar_1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev_20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Satan, the Devil, the dragon, the serpent---not Adam. Not a fallen Adam. Adam did not fall from heaven, he fell on earth in the garden of Eden.


Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This was not Adam, He had no access to the heavenly court--Satan appeared at this heavenly council as the prince of this world.

Gabriel is a covering cherub---and he would have 2 wings.
Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Lucifer had been a covering cherub---never Adam. We were made lower than the angels---Jesus became lower than the angels to save us. Adam could never have stood as a covering cherub in the presence of God as an angel, he was lower than they.

Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The OP's assumptions are false. The devil is exactly who God was pointing to in the Ezekiel 28 chapter.

Nowhere in all of God's Word does it declare a 'cherub' to be a flesh man. Nor is it doing that in Ezekiel 28. In God's Word, a cherub is always a Heavenly being.

Also, no flesh born man has been judged to perish by fire yet. In the Ezek.28:18 verse, that cherub is shown already sentenced to perish by fire, pointing to the future "lake of fire".

Not only has no flesh king or prince of Tyre ever been in God's Garden of Eden, but not even Adam ever "walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire" per Ezek.28:14 (God's Altar in Heaven).

Likewise as with the Isaiah 14 chapter where God said to take up a "proverb" to the king of Babylon, the topic turns to Lucifer, the devil, showing God was using the king of Babylon as a type for the devil himself, just as the devil is the one God is pointing to in Ezekiel 28 using the prince and king of Tyrus (which means 'rock', like the little 'rock' of Deuteronomy.)

TribulationSigns said:

I am talking about the church (people) in general for hundreds of years. Today most Christians believe that Satan was a good created angel to begin within the beginning before "the fall" out of "heaven" where his name was changed from "Lucifer" to "Satan" before he deceives Eve as a "snake" talking from a tree of Life like the picture out there we often saw all the time:

However, this doctrine that influenced church for a long time that many people are actually indoctrinated with, including MYSELF, but it is not biblical accurate that I will explain more tomorrow.

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I think the important thing is to understand Satan is out to tempt us into committing sin, and one must understand how subtle he is:

Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. Gen 3:1A

TribulationSigns said in post #22:

Literal red seven-headed dragon?

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Yes (Revelation 12:3, Revelation 12:9).

The book of Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for Christians of any time to understand it, if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically, and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it which are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal, and will begin right after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

TribulationSigns said in post #22:

Literal red seven-headed dragon?

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Yes.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This has not happened yet, but is part of the things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what the apostle John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between the archangel Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the unsaved world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and His army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

For before Revelation 12:7-9 happens, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The four fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing one-third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought upon humanity. For the Antichrist -- who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union, formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco -- could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently, after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. (The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris.) After landing there, Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor, and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he came to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, whom he could say is his only-begotten Son, called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist, and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send seven vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these seven vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus Christ returns, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), He will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12), with all of the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7), for all of the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the Church will be physically resurrected (if dead), or changed (if alive), into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6), and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky, in order to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14), as He defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), a time period commonly called the Millennium.

At Jesus Christ's return, He will also make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the Millennium, Lucifer will be released from the Bottomless Pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least seven years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the Great White Throne Judgment will occur, in which all people who had not been resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a New Heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth), and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and He will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the Church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem, on the New Earth, will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

TribulationSigns said in post #28:

Weird horse-like beings?

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Yes, for:

Revelation 9:17 . . . thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

The weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animal species which evolved or were miraculously created (at two different times) on the earth millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the Bottomless Pit of the earth (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the Bottomless Pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the Bottomless Pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will not kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). They will hurt people who do not have a seal of God on their forehead (Revelation 9:4, cf. Revelation 7:3-4).

The world could see these locust-like beings as aliens who had lain dormant in deep underground caverns (like in the X-Files). The locust-like beings will be shaped like horses prepared for battle (Revelation 9:7). They will have heads on which they will have as it were crowns like gold (Revelation 9:7b). They will have faces as the faces of men (Revelation 9:7c), hair as the hair of women (Revelation 9:8), teeth as the teeth of lions (Revelation 9:8b), and breastplates as it were breastplates of iron (Revelation 9:9). They will have wings, the sound of which will be as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle (Revelation 9:9b). And they will have tails like unto scorpions (Revelation 9:10), and stingers in their tails (Revelation 9:10b).

Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from the earth, such as on the far side of the moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the fourth planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the Tribulation's sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) have not come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), because one-third of mankind has not been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

TribulationSigns said in post #28:

A third of Mankind killed?

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Yes:

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

TribulationSigns said in post #28:

President of a Mediterranean Union?

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Yes.

For in Daniel 7, the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

TribulationSigns said in post #28:

An android? (Chuckle).

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Yes.

For the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist will not want to ever appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image is not the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life", or "breath" (pneuma: G4151), can mean "spirit", in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural-network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android will not actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer, and cannot tell whether or not it has consciousness, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it is not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers. For his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike, computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all of the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone, and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly, in order to see and hear what is going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone in order to determine what everyone is doing and saying. And the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy, and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary). But if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15), by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, in order to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome, and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built, by which twenty "traitors" could be beheaded at one time, by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start-out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive, and so sharp, that when it is released it will easily slice down through ten necks on one side of the "U", and then continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another ten heads. This could all happen so quickly that it will appear as if all twenty heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by twenty geysers of blood rushing out at the same time for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all of the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What is left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some thirty stories high, and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it was not until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, in order to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes, and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all of their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they are merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural-network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns physically from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

TribulationSigns said:

False! This is what happened with those with carnal minds. Not Spiritual Discerned.



Weird horse-like beings?
Spaceships?
Aliens?
A third of Mankind killed?
President of a Mediterranean Union?

SIGH!



An android? (Chuckle).

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On occasion I attempt to converse with Bible2+, but usually can't last too long before I feel a bout of psychosis coming on. Maybe you can have a better experience.

I'd characterize his eschatology as hyperfuturism.

Correction: hyperfuturitis.

TribulationSigns said:

It is the passage where theologians originally got the whole idea of Cherubim being angels in the first place. The source of confusion is the mention of the Cherub in Ezekiel 28:14. The passage in question quite clearly declares that the person it is speaking about as the covering Cherub is the king of Tyrus, not an angel. Nevertheless, certainly, we can understand their logic, if not their entrenchment. They "assume" that because the reference here says the king was in the Garden of Eden, it has to refer to Satan as a fallen angel. And from this, they surmise that God is using the king as a type of Satan. However, without a Biblical warrant, we cannot make such a leap of faith in interpretation. The rule of thumb applies that "assumption is the mother of error." He was called the anointed cherub because he was a representative man, created in the likeness of God in Adam, and has fallen into sin and lost all semblance of the image of God. Clearly, the King of Tyrus was not in the Garden of Eden, nor perfect in beauty as Adam was, but he is representative of mankind and his degradation.

Ezekiel 28:12-16

• "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
• Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
• Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
• By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

At first glance, it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel. However, rather than "reading into this text" an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God to be righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin and thus come under judgment. So rather than represent a fallen angel, this represents FALLEN MAN. It illustrates original man in Adam, created good (Genesis 1:26-27) in the image/likeness of God before the fall. Man, as he was created without sin, but who has fallen in Adam, losing the glory of the likeness of God he was created with. Thus because of his fall and our inheritance of his spirit of bondage to disobedience, we are all subject to death. But thanks to our God, that full glory of God's image can be restored in Christ Jesus. Which is why Christ is often referred to as the second Adam.

1st Corinthians 15:20-22

• "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
• For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Now we can see the spiritual darkness begin to clear as we can see more of the picture. We were 'all' created in the image of God in Adam. The sin of Adam separated man from that image of God. And in the process, it separated all of us in generations to follow from that likeness. It was the man, not the angel, who was perfect in the mountain (Kingdom) of God. But sin was found in us, and we all died in Adam (1st Corinthians 15:20-22) and are come under judgment as surely as King Tyrus had. And except we are restored to the image of God that 'man' had in the garden, we remain fallen and subject to the wrath of God. The king of Tyrus is a man directly from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was a man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. In point of fact, the very name "Tyrus" means a stone! So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here. It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But Angels do not qualify! We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

Genesis 3:22

• "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

It is man who was corrupted because of knowledge, not angels. He sought to be as God by his disobedience in eating of the tree of knowledge, and it was this that caused his fall in the day he transgressed. Satan in the Garden of Eden didn't have every precious stone his covering, but Adam was made glorious, precious in the sight of the Lord. Satan was not set the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the holy mountain of God, but scripture says Adam (man) was created in the very image of God so that this definition is consistent. In point of fact, everything in the Garden of Eden was 'under the dominion of Adam,' (Genesis 1:26-28;3:1) as He was perfect. Adam was the very likeness or image of God. ..as a Cherub.

Genesis 1:26-27

• "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
• So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Letting the scripture be its own interpreter, we must ask where is it written in scripture that Satan was created in the image of God (as a Cherub) in the Garden of Eden? We don't read that of Satan, but we do read that of man! Scripture does not say that Satan was perfect in the day He was created until his fall, but God created Adam (man) perfect, without sin, with free access to the tree of life until the day of his fall. In all of scripture, there is no one (besides Christ, the God man) whom God declares was created perfect, except Adam. This in itself should illustrate to us that the king of Tyrus "personifies" man who had everything and lost it in the fall. In fact, the very language, "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created," clearly harkens back to the creation of Adam.

Genesis 5:1-2

• "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
• Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

So again, it all points to the King of Tyrus as a representation of fallen Man, not of an angel nor Satan. Adam walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire and had no reason to hide from God before the fall. All these things which God speaks of concerning the King of Tyrus applies to Adam before the fall. He was the very image of God (cherub) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. And by the multitude of his iniquity is their violence, and he has sinned, and therefore will God cast him as profane out of His Mountain.

When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," He did not ask us to take lamentation for Satan, nor for fallen angels, which is absurd! Rather, we lamentation for a fallen man! When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how He has come under the wrath of God.

I hope that this post will help you think more about it. You may be wondering if Satan was not a fallen angel, then what is he really and where did he come from? I will plan to write about the origin and role of Satan, that old serpent, in the garden, Lord willing.

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There are just too many errors in your doctrine - or what you perceive as others' doctrine - to address here.

First, the man and the woman were created. After that man is born from woman. The term "created" (Ez. 28:15) cannot apply to the king of Tyrus because the king was not created - he was born. This word "created" (vs. 15) is the word

[VINE'S] "‏בָּרָא‎ ~ bārāʾ "
Usage Notes: "to create, make." This verb is of profound theological significance, since it has only God as its subject. Only God can "create" in the sense implied by bārāʾ. The verb expresses creation out of nothing, an idea seen clearly in passages having to do with creation on a cosmic scale: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

To create something out of nothing, and to create something out of something. These are the two main creational uses.

Second, (Adam) man wasn't created in the image of God. It was the New man IN CHRIST that God looked forward to when He created "[the New] man in our image." There is no better image of a Father than a Son, and that we are being made into the image of Christ (and not Adam).

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is Spirit, Jesus said.
God created the first Elect man that was created
1.) sin-ful, or as the word is defined by Strong literally as "missing the mark." What is the "mark" by which the KJV translators use the English word "sin" where it ["hamartia"] is found.
2.) Adam (the man) and the woman were created in a fellowship with God. This required the man and woman be created trichotomy, or "three-part" (body, soul, human spirit.)
We all know the "part" that died IN THE DAY they both ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was the human spirit. Later, his body died at the ripe young age of what? 930 years? His body didn't die "in the day" he ate from the tree, nor did his soul which is comprised of intellect, emotions, senses, conscience, human "will" (man has no free will. Free will in man is an illusion. This human will is a will that operates within the confines of God's Will and Purpose.
So, in the day they both ate from the tree meant that their human spirit (which allowed communication with God) died and man became a dichotomy or "two-part" (body and soul) being. This meant that all children born of man are born dichotomy, or two-part (body, soul) and since the human spirit cannot be passed on to their children in sperm or egg (offspring), man is thus born without a human spirit (which allowed communication with God) and it is in the born-again experience in which God creates a NEW human spirit for each and every soul He saves in TIME and at the appointed TIME who are written in the book of life of the lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8.)
Understanding this is reasonable given passages like 2 Co. 5:17, and Ep. 4:24 in which the Greek word transliterated back into the Hebrew is the word "bārāʾ" which means "to create something (human spirit) out of nothing."

Another thing....cherubs guard holy "things" on earth, and seraphim guard holy "heavenly" things.

jgr said in post #31:

I'd characterize his eschatology as hyperfuturism.

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Or just Biblical Futurism.

For note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment. Similarly, even this Tribulation as it is described in Matthew 24 cannot have happened yet, because Jesus' Second Coming must occur immediately after this Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

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Regarding preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, they could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

Preterism says that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven, before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says that the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the Tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation, because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12). And their physical death will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7), in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39), at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).