One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

Eloy Craft said:

Hope is all I've found in scripture to give me confidence that my end is in heaven. Hope gives me confidence in my salvation in the measure I have faith. How can I believe otherwise when I see these scriptures? Also, if I knew my salvation was complete, what are these scriptures teaching me to hope for?
1 Thess 5-8
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

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Yet, 1 Thessalonians 3:5 says,
"For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain."

You said:

Romans 5-2
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

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Yet, Romans 8:4-8 says,
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Note: Being in the flesh or walking after the flesh is in reference to sin. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Romans 13:14 says "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

You said:

Galatians 5-5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

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Yet, Galatians 5:19-24 says,

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Somehow, I think I got you confused with somebody else. I like your reading of scriptures My apologies.

Jason0047 said:

Empty means to "pour out." If this was in reference to His divine powers as God, then that means Jesus poured out or emptied himself of His divine powers. But that sounds like He was giving those powers up as if He did not have them anymore. This to me is wrong because you cannot change who God is at His core. Again, I point to you the example of.... Is Superman still Superman if he gave up his powers (whereby he did not have them anymore)?

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jason0047,

1 Dr. Fruchentbaum, the great Jewish theologian gave 12 things Christ emptied himself or layed aside.

a). Incarnation Galatians 4:4; Phillipians 2:6-7; Hebrews 2:14.
b). Made in the likeness of sinful men Roman’s 8:3; Phillipians 2:7.
c). Born in a lowly condition Matthew 2:23; 8:20; Luke 2:7; 2:7; 2:22-24; 2 Corinthians 8:9.
d). Born under the law Galatians 4:4.
e). submission to human limitations- Kenosis emptying Phillipians 2:5-11.
f). Undergoing miseries of life John 7:5; Hebrews 4:15; 12:13.
g). Became and ministered as a servant John 13:11; Phillipians 2:7.
h). Bore man’s sin 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24.
i). Endearing the curse of the death on the cross Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 2:12.
Fruchentbaum believes Christ divine attributes was limited use, but didn’t explain which ones or why.
I will stop here and make another post with Dake’s view which is slightly different and his logic behind it including scripture. Jerry kelso

Jason0047 said:

Empty means to "pour out." If this was in reference to His divine powers as God, then that means Jesus poured out or emptied himself of His divine powers. But that sounds like He was giving those powers up as if He did not have them anymore. This to me is wrong because you cannot change who God is at His core. Again, I point to you the example of.... Is Superman still Superman if he gave up his powers (whereby he did not have them anymore)?

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jason0047,

1. Dr. Finis J. Dale believes in the humiliation and true Kenosis of Christ.
He says the majority of scriptures given for Christ Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Eternity, Immutability deal majority wise with the power of Christ had to heal, read the thoughts of men and do certain works by the direct anointing of the Spirit not as God manifest in the flesh.
Others deal with Christ before his earthly form while still in the form of God.
The rest of them refer to Christ after his earthly life when he was exalted and had his glory restored to him before becoming man.

2. Dake says that Christ divested himself of his natural attributes and powers, or at least power to use them.

3. We know that God was limited in knowledge, wisdom, power, glory and in every way that man was and that he retained his deity or his divine nature.
This is why Dake says that he emptied himself of everything that would hinder him from being a true and real human being and in all things like his brethren Hebrews 2:9-18.
If Christ retained all his divine attributes then what did he empty himself of?
How do we harmonize the scriptures here he is limited?
If God has all his divine attributes, is as limited as Christ was in his earthly life, then God is not so much greater than man after all.
On the other hand, if God is as infinite and great as he is revealed in the Bible to be, and Christ demonstrated just the opposite in his earthly, then it must be concluded that Christ divested himself of the divine powers in taking human form.
This answers to your thought of Christ acting alone or not emptying himself of his divine attributes or losing his deity which is the traditional view of the kenosis of Christ.

4. Now Dake says the manifestations of attributes as given by his above stated opinion are explained as operations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit Of 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 which Christ possessed to the full for he had the Spirit without measure.

5. 1 Peter 4:1 shows the sufferings of Christ for our examples, which would mean nothing to ordinary men if he endured sufferings as God and not as man.

6. The prophets foretold Christ being limited as man Isaiah 7:14-16; 50:4-11. Of these scriptures are true then where is his attribute of omniscience?

7. Psalm 119:97-104 a prophecy of the Messiah growing up doesn’t seem to gel with omniscience.

8. Paul speaks of Christ learned obedience by the things which he suffered Hebrews 5:8. Such could never be said of Christ if he had retained all his divine attributes of omniscience, immutability, etc.
Matthew 12:28; Luke 3:21-22; 4:1, 14-21; John 3:34; Acts 10:38.

9. Prophecy foretells that Christ was to be anointed with the Holy Spirit and do all his works in this manner, not by being God and having the exercise of all divine attributes as before and since his earthly life Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1-5; 48:16; 61:1.

10. Historical fulfillment Matthew 3:16-17; 12:22:32; 20:22; Luke 3:21-22; 4:14-21; John 1:31-34;3-34; 5:19,30,30; 6:57; 8:28; 14:10,24; Acts 10:38; Romans 1:4; 3:1; 5:6; Hebrews 2:9-18; Revelation 5:6. Christ did no miracle or exercised no divine power until his anointing with the Holy Spirit Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 4:14-21; John 2:11; 3:34; Acts 10:38.
All this can be found and more in depth in Dake’s Plan Of God for man of. 386 VII Of what did Christ empty himself? pg. 387,388 down to point 7.

11. John 5:19; The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he Seeth the Father do; for what things soever he forth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This was said to the Jews in reference to them saying he broke the sabbath and making himself equal with God.
First of all, Jesus couldn’t have really broken the sabbath, otherwise he would have broken the law of Moses and wouldn’t be able to be the sinless sacrificial Lamb.
Jesus said in verse 17; My Father worketh hitherto and I work. This doesn’t mean that he was making himself equal with God in his human form even though he was in deity.
John 14:10; Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jesus did nothing on his own or of his own will. The Father dwelleth in him did the works.
Jesus only did the Father’s will.
According to this Jesus didn’t use his divine attributes but he cooperated with the father.
He was God manifested in the flesh and that is a scriptural fact 1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,received up to glory.
I’ll let you respond. Jerry Kelso

The human body and brain can't receive the omni's He emptied Himself of all Divinity but what was necessary to accomplish His mission. IMO

jerry kelso said:

We know that God was limited in knowledge, wisdom, power, glory and in every way that man was and that he retained his deity or his divine nature.

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How can one retain His deity and divine nature if they no longer have their divine powers or attributes? Again, can we say that Superman is still Superman if he lost his powers? No.

Also, I am not denying that Christ SUPPRESSED His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things) because the Scriptures say that Christ grew in knowledge and wisdom as a child. But suppressing Omniscience is a whole lot different than being emptied of Omniscience.

You also have to not ignore Scripture that says Christ had power as God during His Earthly ministry, as well. It says in Scripture that He had power to raise from the dead just as the Father did (John 5:21). He simply did not make an open show of His own powers or use them in such a way that would draw attention to Himself. Christ did power by the Father openly and He was anointed with the Spirit. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not emptiness. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:9). Not partial fulness. So there is no emptiness. Modern Translations are lying. The KJV is correct on Philippians 2:7 when it says He: "made himself of no reputation."

Side Note:

As for you reference to scholar opinion on this matter:

Jesus said, beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the law or the Scriptures. This would be the modern scholar of our day because they transcribe the Scriptures and create new Modern Translations, etc. We are told by Jesus to beware of them and not to just implicitly trust them. Pray, compare Scripture with Scripture, and believe what they say at face value. This is the key to understanding this topic, my friend.

Jason0047 said:

How can one retain His deity and divine nature if they no longer have their divine powers or attributes? Again, can we say that Superman is still Superman if he lost his powers? No.

Also, I am not denying that Christ SUPPRESSED His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things) because the Scriptures say that Christ grew in knowledge and wisdom as a child. But suppressing Omniscience is a whole lot different than being emptied of Omniscience.

You also have to not ignore Scripture that says Christ had power as God during His Earthly ministry, as well. It says in Scripture that He had power to raise from the dead just as the Father did (John 5:21). He simply did not make an open show of His own powers or use them in such a way that would draw attention to Himself. Christ did power by the Father openly and He was anointed with the Spirit. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not emptiness. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:9). Not partial fulness. So there is no emptiness. Modern Translations are lying. The KJV is correct on Philippians 2:7 when it says He: "made himself of no reputation."

Side Note:

As for you reference to scholar opinion on this matter:

Jesus said, beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the law or the Scriptures. This would be the modern scholar of our day because they transcribe the Scriptures and create new Modern Translations, etc. We are told by Jesus to beware of them and not to just implicitly trust them. Pray, compare Scripture with Scripture, and believe what they say at face value. This is the key to understanding this topic, my friend.

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

How can one retain His deity and divine nature if they no longer have their divine powers or attributes? Again, can we say that Superman is still Superman if he lost his powers? No.

Also, I am not denying that Christ SUPPRESSED His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things) because the Scriptures say that Christ grew in knowledge and wisdom as a child. But suppressing Omniscience is a whole lot different than being emptied of Omniscience.

You also have to not ignore Scripture that says Christ had power as God during His Earthly ministry, as well. It says in Scripture that He had power to raise from the dead just as the Father did (John 5:21). He simply did not make an open show of His own powers or use them in such a way that would draw attention to Himself. Christ did power by the Father openly and He was anointed with the Spirit. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not emptiness. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:9). Not partial fulness. So there is no emptiness. Modern Translations are lying. The KJV is correct on Philippians 2:7 when it says He: "made himself of no reputation."

Side Note:

As for you reference to scholar opinion on this matter:

Jesus said, beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the law or the Scriptures. This would be the modern scholar of our day because they transcribe the Scriptures and create new Modern Translations, etc. We are told by Jesus to beware of them and not to just implicitly trust them. Pray, compare Scripture with Scripture, and believe what they say at face value. This is the key to understanding this topic, my friend.

Click to expand...

jason0047,

1. Emptying himself and divesting himself and laying aside means he did not use his sovereign powers on his own accord.
The basis is John 5:19;14:10.
This means that the scriptures that talk about the Son’s power doing certain things seemingly on his own accord would be a contradiction with John 5:19;14:10.

2. If Jesus used his divine powers then this would mean nothing to finite human beings to be able to do greater works than he did.

3. So the conclusion to me was that Christ did not use his divine attributes without the Father’s and the Holy Spirit’s help.
He said he was in the Father and the Father was in him and the Father dwellers in him doeth the works.
This would have to be the overall basis across the board.
Jesus did resurrect people just like the Father because he said he only did what he saw the Father so but it was the Father doing it according to John 14:10.
So my question to you is why would Christ have to use his divine powers some of the time and not others? I think I know what your answer will be, but I want to hear it from you for it leads to one final question. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

jason0047,

1. Emptying himself and divesting himself and laying aside means he did not use his sovereign powers on his own accord.

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Dear Jerry:

You did not answer me before. Did Christ empty Himself of His powers in the sense that He did not have those powers anymore or did Jesus have power and He simply did not use those powers?

You said:

The basis is John 5:19;

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Nowhere does John 5:19 say that Jesus did not use His own powers or abilities. On the contrary, Jesus says He can only do what He sees His father doing. This lines up with Jesus saying that He can raise the dead just as the Father can raise up the dead in John 5:21. This means Jesus copies what the Father does (vs. 19) and he can raise the dead himself just as the Father can also raise the dead (vs. 21). I do not see how you cannot see this. It is plain as day. Jesus has power just as the Father has power.

You said:

14:10.
This means that the scriptures that talk about the Son’s power doing certain things seemingly on his own accord would be a contradiction with John 5:19;14:10.

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I believe John 14:10 is saying that when Jesus did works openly before others, these works were primarily the works of God the Father working through Him. However, we cannot conclude that this was exclusively the Father alone in all instances because we also see that the Holy Spirit also had worked through Jesus to work miracles, too (See Matthew 12:28) (Romans 8:11).

You said:

2. If Jesus used his divine powers then this would mean nothing to finite human beings to be able to do greater works than he did.

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I do not see how that makes any sense. John 14:12 is simply talking about how the miracles we do would be even greater than what Jesus did. Whether Christ had powers, used them or not would not change what John 14:12 says.

You said:

3. So the conclusion to me was that Christ did not use his divine attributes without the Father’s and the Holy Spirit’s help.
He said he was in the Father and the Father was in him and the Father dwellers in him doeth the works.

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Which is refuted because Jesus also did work by the Holy Spirit and He said He would raise up His own body (along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit). Jesus also held all things together by the word of His power when he was purging us of our sins on the cross. If Jesus did not have power, He could not do this. Jesus also said where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am among them. He literally means that. He is among all believers in the spirit (even during His Earthly ministry). To suggest otherwise is to change the text of the Bible because we are uncomfortable with that idea or we are accustomed to believing a certain way.

You said:

This would have to be the overall basis across the board.
Jesus did resurrect people just like the Father because he said he only did what he saw the Father so but it was the Father doing it according to John 14:10.

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No. Jesus was not lying. He said that He can indeed do what He sees the Father doing. You are saying Jesus cannot do what the Father does but Jesus says that He can do it. This means Jesus still has power as the Father has power as He says in verse 21 (When He said that He can raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life).

You said:

So my question to you is why would Christ have to use his divine powers some of the time and not others? I think I know what your answer will be, but I want to hear it from you for it leads to one final question. Jerry Kelso

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Christ used His divine powers, but it was very limited. Why? Because of Philippians 2:6-9. He had to humble himself as a servant and make himself of no reputation to the point of death. He had to be like a man so as to be our substitute so to bear our sins within his body. In the Garden of Gethsemane, he took upon our sins within the cup the Father gave to him. Then he was whipped and beaten. He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripe marks (whip marks) we are healed. Jesus is our substitute. But Jesus is also God, as well. His mission was to carry our sins within his body and pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing said in Scripture that He had to be perfectly human in every possible way in order for Him to save us. If such were the case, then He wouldn't have been able to been God at the core of His being then. But Jesus is God at the core of His being. This is not just in His existence of who He is but Jesus is God in power, as well. Why? Because He is God. It's very simple.

Jason0047 said:

Dear Jerry:

You did not answer me before. Did Christ empty Himself of His powers in the sense that He did not have those powers anymore or did Jesus have power and He simply did not use those powers?



Nowhere does John 5:19 say that Jesus did not use His own powers or abilities. On the contrary, Jesus says He can only do what He sees His father doing. This lines up with Jesus saying that He can raise the dead just as the Father can raise up the dead in John 5:21. This means Jesus copies what the Father does (vs. 19) and he can raise the dead himself just as the Father can also raise the dead (vs. 21). I do not see how you cannot see this. It is plain as day. Jesus has power just as the Father has power.



I believe John 14:10 is saying that when Jesus did works openly before others, these works were primarily the works of God the Father working through Him. However, we cannot conclude that this was exclusively the Father alone in all instances because we also see that the Holy Spirit also had worked through Jesus to work miracles, too (See Matthew 12:28) (Romans 8:11).



I do not see how that makes any sense. John 14:12 is simply talking about how the miracles we do would be even greater than what Jesus did. Whether Christ had powers, used them or not would not change what this John 14:12 says.



Which is refuted because Jesus also did work by the Holy Spirit and He said He would raise up His own body (along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit). Jesus also held all things together by the word of His power when he was purging us of our sins on the cross. If Jesus did not have power, He could not do this. Jesus also said where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am among them. He literally means that. He is among all believers in the spirit (even during His Earthly ministry). To suggest otherwise is to change the text of the Bible because we are uncomfortable with that idea or we are accustomed to believing a certain way.



No. Jesus was not lying. He said that He can indeed do what He sees the Father doing. You are saying Jesus cannot do what the Father does but Jesus says that He can do it. This means Jesus still has power as the Father has power as He says in verse 21 (When He said that He can raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life).



Christ used His divine powers, but it was very limited. Why? Because of Philippians 2:6-9. He had to humble himself as a servant and make himself of no reputation to the point of death. He had to be like a man so as to be our substitute so to bear our sins within his body. In the Garden of Gethsemane, he took upon our sins within the cup the Father gave to him. Then he was whipped and beaten. He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripe marks (whip marks) we are healed. Jesus is our substitute. But Jesus is also God, as well. His mission was to carry our sins within his body and pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing said in Scripture that He had to be perfectly human in every possible way in order for Him to save us. If such were the case, then He wouldn't have been able to been God at the core of His being then. But Jesus is God at the core of His being. This is not just in His existence of who He is but Jesus is God in power, as well. Why? Because He is God. It's very simple.

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jason0047,

1. I answered your question.

2. The basis you are using is that Jesus had his powers, which is fine, but you believe he had to use his divine attributes in order to retain him being God.

3. The other view is that the deity of Christ was retained is that
a). Divine names and titles are ascribed to him.
b). Divine attributes are ascribed to him which were limited to become a man.
c). Divine offices are ascribed to him.
d). The works of God are ascribed to him.
e). Divine worship was given to him.
f). His name is associated with that of the Father and the Holy Spirit as being one of the three Divine persons in the deity.
g). Equality with God in divinity is definitely stated.
h). Divine characteristics are ascribed to him.
Dake’s God’s Plan For Man Lesson 21 The Truth About Jesus Christ of. 370-371. He has plenty of scriptures with these.

4. You haven’t addressed the Old Testament scriptures I gave Isaiah 11:2; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
V3, And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Vs. 4; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isaiah 42:1; I have put my spirit on him: he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.

5. John 5:19; The son of God can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doeth. This means that whether or not he used his own divine power or not he never moved without the Father’s approval.
Verse 21 is true about the Son quickening whom he he will but it was because of being in subjection to the Father and what the Father doeth vs. 20. This reconciles with John 14:10; the Father that dwelled in Christ did the works.
As a human he was in complete submission to the Father. The Father would approve Christ raising people from the dead.
Also, Luke 4:18 says; The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted. to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

6. Now how is this reconciled with
John 14:10?
Your opinion about the Father doing the works only in the open is not mentioned or implied.
Jesus said he was in the Father and the Father in him.
He said the words he spoke was not of himself but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE DOETH THE WORKS!
Vs. 11; Jesus told the Jewish disciples; Believe me that I am in the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.
The works sake is because the Jews require a sign.
Vs. 12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; BECAUSE I GO TO MY FATHER.
Vs. 13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do, that the Father may be glorified.
The Son is in submission to the father as a human as our human example not the unity of the trinity.

7. We know that he was limited in the days of his flesh. He did everything by voluntary action, but not without the Father doing them.
Whether Christ retained all his divine powers and attributes in his person and chose to limit their use for his earthly life; the fact remains that he was limited as a man and if his choice was so powerful as to do away with all use of them, what is the difference between laying them aside and still retaining them without power to use them.
Most of what we were talking about his wisdom, knowledge, miracles and sufferings and we know he was tempted every way man ever was.
I would agree that he had to be the Savior being the ransom for the penalty of sin.
Bearing the sins of the world would have to be according to the Savior of the world for he was the ransom for sins penalty. We could logically believe that he was the ransom as Christ, suffered physically like man, and bear the sins because of being the Savior.

8. Concerning daily life as a human life and even the miracles the scriptures seem to show he limited his divine attributes to show that we could do the same things in his name because he goes to the father.

9. Where Jesus and redemption are concerned that man cannot fulfill is true just like him being the sinless and spotless Lamb Of God. But this is not using his divine attributes, but who he is.

10. Jesus did not lose his deity according to the things said of him as being deity that Dake shows up above.
Do you disagree with this?
This is why Christ didn’t have to use his divine attributes to prove his deity.
Jesus made himself of no reputation and was neglectful in saying he was deity but he was still deity.
So we do agree that Jesus was limited by means of becoming human.
I do not believe Christ had to do works apart from the Father and anointing of the Holy Spirit concerning human life on earth to show he was deity.
Scriptures show he was deity in conjunction with the Old Testament scriptures.
Remember, even plain statements have a context as well as comparing and reconciling with all the scriptures on the subject.
If you could show in every case where Christ used his divine attributes. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

jason0047,

1. I answered your question.

2. The basis you are using is that Jesus had his powers, which is fine, but you believe he had to use his divine attributes in order to retain him being God.

3. The other view is that the deity of Christ was retained is that
a). Divine names and titles are ascribed to him.
b). Divine attributes are ascribed to him which were limited to become a man.
c). Divine offices are ascribed to him.
d). The works of God are ascribed to him.
e). Divine worship was given to him.
f). His name is associated with that of the Father and the Holy Spirit as being one of the three Divine persons in the deity.
g). Equality with God in divinity is definitely stated.
h). Divine characteristics are ascribed to him.
Dake’s God’s Plan For Man Lesson 21 The Truth About Jesus Christ of. 370-371. He has plenty of scriptures with these.

4. You haven’t addressed the Old Testament scriptures I gave Isaiah 11:2; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
V3, And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Vs. 4; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isaiah 42:1; I have put my spirit on him: he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.

5. John 5:19; The son of God can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doeth. This means that whether or not he used his own divine power or not he never moved without the Father’s approval.
Verse 21 is true about the Son quickening whom he he will but it was because of being in subjection to the Father and what the Father doeth vs. 20. This reconciles with John 14:10; the Father that dwelled in Christ did the works.
As a human he was in complete submission to the Father. The Father would approve Christ raising people from the dead.
Also, Luke 4:18 says; The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted. to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

6. Now how is this reconciled with
John 14:10?
Your opinion about the Father doing the works only in the open is not mentioned or implied.
Jesus said he was in the Father and the Father in him.
He said the words he spoke was not of himself but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE DOETH THE WORKS!
Vs. 11; Jesus told the Jewish disciples; Believe me that I am in the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.
The works sake is because the Jews require a sign.
Vs. 12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; BECAUSE I GO TO MY FATHER.
Vs. 13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do, that the Father may be glorified.
The Son is in submission to the father as a human as our human example not the unity of the trinity.

7. We know that he was limited in the days of his flesh. He did everything by voluntary action, but not without the Father doing them.
Whether Christ retained all his divine powers and attributes in his person and chose to limit their use for his earthly life; the fact remains that he was limited as a man and if his choice was so powerful as to do away with all use of them, what is the difference between laying them aside and still retaining them without power to use them.
Most of what we were talking about his wisdom, knowledge, miracles and sufferings and we know he was tempted every way man ever was.
I would agree that he had to be the Savior being the ransom for the penalty of sin.
Bearing the sins of the world would have to be according to the Savior of the world for he was the ransom for sins penalty. We could logically believe that he was the ransom as Christ, suffered physically like man, and bear the sins because of being the Savior.

8. Concerning daily life as a human life and even the miracles the scriptures seem to show he limited his divine attributes to show that we could do the same things in his name because he goes to the father.

9. Where Jesus and redemption are concerned that man cannot fulfill is true just like him being the sinless and spotless Lamb Of God. But this is not using his divine attributes, but who he is.

10. Jesus did not lose his deity according to the things said of him as being deity that Dake shows up above.
Do you disagree with this?
This is why Christ didn’t have to use his divine attributes to prove his deity.
Jesus made himself of no reputation and was neglectful in saying he was deity but he was still deity.
So we do agree that Jesus was limited by means of becoming human.
I do not believe Christ had to do works apart from the Father and anointing of the Holy Spirit concerning human life on earth to show he was deity.
Scriptures show he was deity in conjunction with the Old Testament scriptures.
Remember, even plain statements have a context as well as comparing and reconciling with all the scriptures on the subject.
If you could show in every case where Christ used his divine attributes. Jerry kelso

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One more time.

During Christ’s earthly ministry, what Option below do you believe?

Option #1. Jesus had His divine powers but He simply did not use them (and or He suppressed them).

Option #2. Jesus temporarily did not have any divine powers upon the Earth, but He was divine and He was still God.

Which option do you believe? Option #1? Or Option #2?

Or are you not sure?

Jason0047 said:

One more time.

During Christ’s earthly ministry, what Option below do you believe?

Option #1. Jesus had His divine powers but He simply did not use them (and or He suppressed them).

Option #2. Jesus temporarily did not have any divine powers upon the Earth, but He was divine and He was still God.

Which option do you believe? Option #1? Or Option #2?

Or are you not sure?

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Jason0047,

1. I said that all the terms like emptying himself and laying aside etc. can mean he had his powers but he didn’t use them without the anointing of the Spirit or the father’s help.
John 14:10 says the Father did the works. It didn’t qualify just part of the time.
The Old Testament says he would be anointed by the Spirit.
2. Jesus could have given his powers to God completely and not use them because he still retained his deity by the statements made about him being deity which I stated.
The point is he didn’t use his divine powers or at least was limited to them.
3. Now the burden is on you to list in what ways he used certain divine attributes. Then we can go from there. Jerry Kelso

I disagree with Once Saved, Always Saved. You do have to accept God into your life, but then you must also continue being a good person. Otherwise, Jesus might tell you upon death that he doesn't know you.

jerry kelso said:

Jason0047,

1. I said that all the terms like emptying himself and laying aside etc. can mean he had his powers but he didn’t use them without the anointing of the Spirit or the father’s help.
John 14:10 says the Father did the works. It didn’t qualify just part of the time.
The Old Testament says he would be anointed by the Spirit.
2. Jesus could have given his powers to God completely and not use them because he still retained his deity by the statements made about him being deity which I stated.
The point is he didn’t use his divine powers or at least was limited to them.
3. Now the burden is on you to list in what ways he used certain divine attributes. Then we can go from there. Jerry Kelso

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Well, I am just happy that you believe Jesus had power. That to me would be disturbing if you believed otherwise. As for proving whether Jesus used those powers: I believe I already have proven this to you already with Scripture. I don't believe going over the same Scriptures is going to help you, my friend. I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on for now.

May God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

Well, I am just happy that you believe Jesus had power. That to me would be disturbing if you believed otherwise. As for proving whether Jesus used those powers: I believe I already have proven this to you already with Scripture. I don't believe going over the same Scriptures is going to help you, my friend. I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on for now.

May God bless you.

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jason0047,

1. Jesus had power through the anointing of the Spirit and cooperation with the the father who did the works.
Jesus learned obedience through his sufferings so he would be the example for humans that they could do the same thing.
God doesn’t learn anything for he is all knowing so Jesus wasn’t all knowing as a human growing up 7:14-16; Isaiah 50:4-7; Psalm 119:97-104.
Mark 13:32:Jesus said that no man, nor angels in Heaven, neither the son but only the Father knew about the day of the Lord. There is no omniscient of Christ here.

2. John 5:19;21 and John 14:10
showed Christ did not use his divine powers but as a human he was anointed by the Spirit and the help of the father.

4. The Son could forgive sins it so could remit sins and heal the sick, cast out demons etc.
Christ submission to the Father and having the spirit without measure was leaving the example that we could do the greater works because he goes to the Father.

5. Destroy this temple and I will raise it up has nothing to do with a believers walk and Christ being a man.
John 1:4; Romans 8:11 had to do with the Spirit in Resurrection.
Acts 2:24, 32, 3:15,20; 4:10; 5:30, 10:40; 13:30,33 34, 37.
All these say plainly God the father raised Jesus up.
Roman’s 4:24; 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; Colossians 2:12
God the Father raised up Jesus again
John 10:17-18 Christ loves the Father and has the power to lay down and take up his life.
Christ is in cooperation with the Father because he loves him. Either way this has nothing to do with Jesus having to use a divine attribute in conjunction with living as man.

6. Matthew 18:19 was prophetic to the KoH reign which was future from Jesus Day. The Jews rejected
Jesus but this is true now since he has gone to heaven. Read to Matthew 16:19.

7. Upholding the word of his power was speaking of the Father’s of which Jesus said he did and said everything his Father said and did.

8. Being worshiped as God is true, but using an attribute in this case there is none. It is because of retaking his nature of being deity.
So none of these prove your point that Christ had to use an attribute to prove his deity unless I am not understanding your definition of an attribute. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

jason0047,

1. Jesus had power through the anointing of the Spirit and cooperation with the the father who did the works.
Jesus learned obedience through his sufferings so he would be the example for humans that they could do the same thing.
God doesn’t learn anything for he is all knowing so Jesus wasn’t all knowing as a human growing up 7:14-16; Isaiah 50:4-7; Psalm 119:97-104.
Mark 13:32:Jesus said that no man, nor angels in Heaven, neither the son but only the Father knew about the day of the Lord. There is no omniscient of Christ here.

2. John 5:19;21 and John 14:10
showed Christ did not use his divine powers but as a human he was anointed by the Spirit and the help of the father.

4. The Son could forgive sins it so could remit sins and heal the sick, cast out demons etc.
Christ submission to the Father and having the spirit without measure was leaving the example that we could do the greater works because he goes to the Father.

5. Destroy this temple and I will raise it up has nothing to do with a believers walk and Christ being a man.
John 1:4; Romans 8:11 had to do with the Spirit in Resurrection.
Acts 2:24, 32, 3:15,20; 4:10; 5:30, 10:40; 13:30,33 34, 37.
All these say plainly God the father raised Jesus up.
Roman’s 4:24; 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; Colossians 2:12
God the Father raised up Jesus again
John 10:17-18 Christ loves the Father and has the power to lay down and take up his life.
Christ is in cooperation with the Father because he loves him. Either way this has nothing to do with Jesus having to use a divine attribute in conjunction with living as man.

6. Matthew 18:19 was prophetic to the KoH reign which was future from Jesus Day. The Jews rejected
Jesus but this is true now since he has gone to heaven. Read to Matthew 16:19.

7. Upholding the word of his power was speaking of the Father’s of which Jesus said he did and said everything his Father said and did.

8. Being worshiped as God is true, but using an attribute in this case there is none. It is because of retaking his nature of being deity.
So none of these prove your point that Christ had to use an attribute to prove his deity unless I am not understanding your definition of an attribute. Jerry Kelso

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Again, I could repeat the verses, but I do not think it will change your mind or anything at this point.

Good day to you, sir;
And may God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

Again, I could repeat the verses, but I do not think it will change your mind or anything at this point.

Good day to you, sir;
And may God bless you.

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jason0047,

1. I am trying to be logical and I am not trying to argue for arguments sake.
It was a legit question.
I listed your verse you gave and what the context says and you decided not to rebut it which is not proving your point or disproving mine.
I’m sorry but you are the one that is not willing to change and I am not asking you to.
I am willing to keep trying to find which answer is correct whether I learn I am wrong or right.

3. The point as far emptying himself means he came down as man born of a woman.
This is the first step of the humiliation of Christ because he took on the seed of Abraham, the man, which was a little lower than the angels.
Phillipians 2:6; Jesus equal with God in his God form.
Phillipians 2:7; Christ made himself of no reputation is answered in the incarnation arrival Isaiah 53.
In the human form Christ humbled himself (as a man), and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (as a man).
He could not use his divine attributes as a human for in an Divine God doesn’t humble or obey to death and cannot suffer physically, mentally or otherwise or such as a human.
Since this is true he had to be anointed by the Spirit in human life as well be in his Father who did the works John 14:10.
This is so he could be the example for us to be able to do the greater works.
If he used his divine powers alone we wouldn’t have a proper example because we are not God and can’t heal people by ourselves.
The Old Testament standard for Christ as a human was by the anointing of the Spirit and the Father doing the works and Christ was cooperating completely.
I gave the scriptures; did you read them? So the statements that says Christ raised people like the Father is because it was the Father doing the works and being anointed by the Spirit. John 14:10
If we are anointed and we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus by faith healing can take place.

4. Christ was born sinless and he was tempted in all ways like men that he would be made like unto his brethren to be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Does this mean that he used his divine power to overcome so he wouldn’t sin?
Hebrews 4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be tempted with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points as we are, yet without sin.
In the temptation of Christ he quoted scripture and fasted 40 days and nights.
There is no sign of divine attributes used to overcome temptation.
Jesus laid aside his glory before he came to earth and was given back after his work as Messiah was done John 17.
John 17:1-3: These words spake Jesus and lifted up his eyes in Heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy son that thy son may glorify them.
As thou hast given him power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal that they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
The Father gave glory to Christ of being one and Christ gave this glory to us as being one in him John 17:20-23.

5. Christ did not have to use his divine attributes since he was anointed by the Spirit and one in the Father who did the works so he could be the proper example of an obedient servant for man.
He could still retain his deity because of all the names and titles ascribed to him and because Divine attributes are abscribed to him and Divine offices are ascribed to him and ascribed as having divine character. The works of God are ascribed to him and divine worship was given to him.
His name is associated with deity, equality with God in his divinity and divine characteristics are ascribed to him.

6. The father gave the son the power over all flesh that Christ should give eternal life to man.
John 17:2.
Why would the Father give him the power of Christ just had to use his divine attributes.
The Son said the Father was greater than he. Not in deity but because he became human and as a servant. Sons are in subjection to Father’s and Christ was no different.
The bottom line is that Christ didn’t have to use his divine attributes to retain his deity.
The Father and Son were one and the Father did the works. Why would he do this at all if the son could use his own divine power?
All he would need to do is get his order from God the Father and then use his own divine attribute. So why is this?
This is a legit question.

Christ said he had power to forgive sins. He could still say it and still have been given it by the Father.
Christ gave power to disciples to remit sins because God the Father gave him the power Matthew 28:18.
In Christ deity he could forgive sins but as a human he could not.
Christ gave the power to remit sins.
Matthew 28:18; Christ was given all power and authority in Heaven and Earth. This was after his earthly ministry.
It seems possible and plausible that Christ didn’t have to use his divine attributes because of his total obedience to God and total trust in God the Father.
We definitely know that he was limited and had to be as a human and to be the example for humans to be like his brethren.
It seems to bear the sins of many physically like man but spiritually because of divine blood it would be spiritually because without blood there is no remission of sins and human blood could not save, otherwise this would border on Christadelphianism of Christ being only human and not deity only.
What is your definition of divine attributes and using them? Answer this question and I’ll have a better idea of what you think.
Jerry Kelso

Divine Glory is characterized by power as in the final judgement the Son of Man comes in power and Glory. The Glorified human soul is characterized by grace and truth and is the glory the apostles saw at the Transfiguration. Jesus hid the light of His glorified soul with His body. He let His glory be seen and it transfigured His body and it became as light but not light like the soul. Jesus used the power of glorified human nature and the power of prayer that a glorified person united to God would have. When He returns in Glory it is the Glory He had before the world ever was. He will come with the Glory He emptied Himself of to become Man.

danbuter said:

I disagree with Once Saved, Always Saved. You do have to accept God into your life, but then you must also continue being a good person. Otherwise, Jesus might tell you upon death that he doesn't know you.

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It is more accurate that Jesus said 'never knew you', which then changes a lot of meaning. In that someone Jesus never knew, He did not once know you but then no longer knows you.

Christ either knows you, or never knew you.

Matthew 7:21-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Build on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

OP: OSAS = Eternal Security

Titus 2:11-14 (NASB)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing (the offer of) salvation to all men,
12 instructing us
to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and
to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the (SECOND) appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who GAVE Himself FOR us to REDEEM us from every lawless deed,
and to purify for Himself (sanctify) a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Romans 8:21
that the creation itself also will be set free
from its slavery to corruption
into the freedom of the glory of the "children of God".