What is the attitude towards transgender people in the Christian Church?

Goatee said:

All rubbish

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Ah. Ok so your admitting you knew nothing on the topic, and cannot defend your position so opt for trolling. Ive seen better trolls than you though

Zoii said:

Ah. Ok so your admitting you knew nothing on the topic, and cannot defend your position so opt for trolling. Ive seen better trolls than you though

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Trolling is an easy word to use these days.

Too many people in society who think they are what they are not. They are not satisfied with what God has given them.

Goatee said:

Trolling is an easy word to use these days.

Too many people in society who think they are what they are not. They are not satisfied with what God has given them.

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so what has god given them if they have ambivalent genitals - oh wait you know best right - troll

Goatee said:

...too many people in society who think they are what they are not. They are not satisfied with what God has given them.

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So why is our internal sense of who we are not God given?

When you see this expressed in early childhood, gender identity really can seem natural or God given rather than chosen or imposed by culture.

Zoii said:

Ah. Ok so your admitting you knew nothing on the topic, and cannot defend your position so opt for trolling. Ive seen better trolls than you though

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It's along the same lines as if someone from the 17th century were
confronted with a smartphone. They would think any scientific
explanation for its operation was rubbish and instead insist that its
power comes from evil witchery.

Sometimes it's painful to have one's knowledge expanded. Hence,
the resistance.

-

Zoii said:

so what has god given them if they have ambivalent genitals - oh wait you know best right - troll

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God gave them what they were born with. Peer preasure says otherwise! Get a life!

The Church doesn't exist so that we can feel good about ourselves as some sort of pious people who have the "it" ticket to glory. The Church exists because Christ makes Himself present to sinners here, most plainly through Word and Sacrament. At the central place of our worship is a Table around which we gather to receive the broken flesh and shed blood of Jesus, that is to say, there is Jesus Himself made utterly present. And we who gather are the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the lepers, and the sinners. Here is where God gives Himself freely, emptying Himself, that we might share of Him as He heals the world.

If "they" are not welcome (whoever "they" might be seems to change regularly depending on time and place) then nobody is welcome, and if nobody is welcome then the Gospel is nothingness. But if the Gospel is something, then that means there is a place here for everyone. There is a home for the sinner, the recluse, the outcast, the unwanted, the unloved, and the unlovely.

Because God extends the bread of peace to us, welcoming us into His house, sitting us at His table. God Himself extends Himself, His hospitality, and breaks bread with us--strangers, beggars, and wretches alike. The Church is not our house, it is God's house. He breaks bread with us. And if God breaks bread with you, then you are no longer an enemy and a stranger, but a friend, and then there is peace, and the shalom of God is with us.

-CryptoLutheran

A friend's sister is claiming to be transitioning to male. She's already married. I think she's terribly confused. I honestly wonder how much their old "church" plays into this, because it taught some nasty stuff about women, and my friend has shared some damage from that "church" (he calls it a cult now) that took a while to heal after he was introduced to evangelical Christianity. It could easily have been harder for her, and if it turned out to be a factor in this, I would not be surprised at all.

Dave RP said:

Compete trust" - no, not 100% infallible trust but on balance,

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How ya doin' me old china?

Complete - (often used for emphasis) to the greatest extent or degree; total. Not qualified or diminished in any way; total.

Infallible - incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

Trust - firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something.

Belief - an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Belief (noun 2) - trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).

Balance (noun 2) - a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.



What is ' 100% infallible trust"? What do mean when you say that my dear?

What is 'balanced trust' or 'trust on balance'?

Dave RP said:

given the health service is responsible for state provided healthcare to the UK population I believe they will treat health conditions which require treatment.

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You consider the nhs as an authority. You hold this as an opinion - they are the experts. Would your opinion change if the nhs reversed their decision?

Dave RP said:

if they undertake unnecessary treatment they waste taxpayers money, so I believe on balance that transgender issues are a health problem requiring treatment.

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"I believe on balance". What does that mean in context here?

Dave RP said:

In answer to "Would you say you have no awareness or understanding of the facts, are the previous statements opinion?" - I said that I have no understanding of how a transgender person feels, hence I can only guess.

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To estimate or conclude (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.

It would seem that your position on transgender may not be sound. My friend your position seems to be built on guess work and emotion.

Dave RP said:

I also have no understanding how an impotent person feels, or someone with a serious illness, or mental health issues or even a dodgy knee - thankfully my health is currently good,

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Praise God you are healthy.

Dave RP said:

but I can imagine that anyone with a serious but treatable health condition must feel a bit better when they know they can be treated, and when that treatment starts.

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I can supply 2 reference.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...DxAB&usg=AOvVaw2MwOe0kG_gEgkjJEYJ3NEe&ampcf=1

Kane’s insight may not be applicable to all transgender patients seeking reversal surgery. Djordjevic expresses concern about the psychiatric evaluation and counseling that take place prior to the gender reassignment surgery. He recalls patients telling him that when they inquired about the procedure at other clinics, they receive minimal information before being asked for proof that they could pay for the operation.


Sex Change Regret

Britain's youngest sex swap patient shows emotional upheaval

The following is an excerpt from the article (Oct. 29, 2012):

Although Ms Cooper underwent a thorough psychological assessment and counseling at Hull Royal Infirmary prior to starting her sex change therapy she has suffered such torment living as a women that she has tried to commit suicide twice.




What u think?

Dave RP said:

From a religious point of view, I still don't comprehend why this should be an issue for Christians.

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Dave - "His stance felt to me to be very un-Christian, I wondered what others felt."

Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex.

Which one is correct the mind or the body?

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots?




Love the sinner is the Christian way.

Dave RP said:

I hope you have a fab weekend.

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Same to you. Cheerio

Unveiled Artist said:

Yes.

What are you getting at? Transgender is someone with gender disphoria? Its not an action.

What do you mean?

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Hey hey my dear

You gave me a yes and a no.

How bout this

Is transitioning from one sex to another a form of attachment to gender or attachment to ego?

anattā (Pali) or anātman (Sanskrit) refers to the doctrine of "non-self", that there is no unchanging, permanent self, soul or essence in living beings.

What you think about the above statement in relation to transitioning

Cheers hey

Dave RP said:

I ask this because I went with a friend to a church recently and the sermon was on "Is gender fluid".

The Vicar was arguing from a Christian perspective that there are only 2 genders made by god and that people who feel they are the other gender or who have a genetic problem requiring gender re-alignment should accept themselves as god made them and not receive any treatment.

he al;so was appalled that the Church of England is considering bringing in prayers to welcome newly gender reassigned individuals to the church.

His stance felt to me to be very un-Christian, I wondered what others felt.

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Sigh.

I'm not going to argue that the position is wrong. But in a spiritually and especially, BIBLICALLY starved age, this is what the vicar preached on? This makes me so sad. People need CHRIST. They need the Gospel. They need the Word of God. Once they are transformed by the Holy Spirit, the rest will fall in line. One must come in front of the other.

I'm no pastor, but in my humble opinion, the shepherds must at this time point the flock to the chief Shepherd. Otherwise, people are just wandering, and starving. How sad. What a wasted opportunity.

Goatee said:

God gave them what they were born with. Peer preasure says otherwise! Get a life!

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Its clear youre guessing and have no experience with this topic.

Side note @ICONO'CLAST

In The Dharma we believe that whatever one identifies as-gender, sex, buddhidt, frog, etc-are illusions. There is no identity/soul/self since everything is constantly changing. So me as a woman and a male/sex as a female/gender is not Who we are.

Our identity constantly changes. Ten years ago I had no religion. Wasnt born nor raised religious. Five years ago I practiced Buddhism. A year ago I took the precepts. Now Im a buddhist. But everything changes so to attached to that identity causes clinging thus suffering. No anatta; no self no fixed soul or spirit

We can identify as christian, gender, cook, etc. The problem isnt the lsbels it defing ourselves to those labels.

Christian translation: Not identifying as christian (earth label) but a child of god (spiritual label)

Goatee said:

God gave them what they were born with. Peer preasure says otherwise! Get a life!

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I am not even trying to dismantle the idea of peer pressure in view of the way that transgenders are treated by the "loving" society.

But I would love to know what "peers" you think exist that put this kind of pressure onto someone?

Unveiled Artist said:

So me as a woman and a male/sex as a female/gender is not Who we are.

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I agree. We are not our bodies.

If anything, my body is just a costume, and those get changed on a
regular basis. Currently, I'm a middle-aged caucasian female human.
My next role might be something entirely different. I might even have
the role of a guy (preferably one who is far better at math than the
gal whose role I have currently ツ ). *I* am still me, but my *roles*
change; my *costumes* change, depending on the role I'm playing
on the world stage at any given time.

Of course, costumes can be altered, so it could be taken in that
direction, too, since it would be, after all, "just a costume". However,
if it's understood that we are not our bodies, the urge to undergo
surgeries to change what is only superficial, what is inevitably going
to be changed anyway, might be relieved a smidge. Not to mention
the money that would be saved.

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RayJeena said:

That certainly makes sense.

As it is, we have people born (created!) with physical attributes of
both genders (a.k.a. hermaphrodites). If one's actual physical body
can be created transcending genders, it's no stretch to consider that
such transcendence can occur on other levels (mental, spiritual,
biochemical, etc).

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In my opinion a hermaprhodite is the only true transgender.Why? Because they as an adult or their parents at birth has the option to decide if little Johnny is going to remain a Johnny or begin life as a Jo-Anne then have a surgeon do the agreed upon procedure.Then once that is decided that person has to live their life either as a he or a she *physically* if not mentally or emotionally.Several questions pop up in my mind and that is will that person be gay or bisexual or asexual?? Or heterosexual because if that person was born with two genders and one was removed at birth supposing the wrong one was removed?In other words little Johnny has become Jo-Anne because of the surgery but grows up to be sexually attracted to women because he has more male chromosomes than female but his parents decided that *physically* he would be a girl? I know this whole question might throw some people off but does anyone care to answer?Sorry for going off topic.

Unveiled Artist said:

No. It is a disattachment from one's gender from one's sex at birth. People transition to match their sex with their gender. They realize gender isnt defined by one's sex but by what makes you and I psychologically a male or femal

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Hey hey thank you for your reply.

Detachment, also expressed as non-attachment, is a state in which a person overcomes his or her attachment to desire for things, people or concepts of the world and thus attains a heightened perspective.

If we consider this above state (detachment in bhuddism). A strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen - in this case to transition and or gender identity - would lead to suffering?

Unveiled Artist said:

For example, Im attached to both my gender and sex (Im female) both sex and psychologically speaking in gender. This is not a form of ego (unless I lust?) nor ideally a form of attachment (unless I identify as my sex and gender which most people do) hence the bias.

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The term "ego" is a term that originates outside of buddhism, in psychology. It refers to the psychological construct that is our identity.

Is not gender an identity?

However, the exact same concept does exist in buddhism, referred to as Anatta. In both western psychology and buddhism, the idea refers to the illusion of the "self.

Is not identity a form of 'self'?

Bhuddism suggests that life is inherently full of suffering (dukkha), that non-attachment is a goal, and that a recognition of emptiness (shunyata) is a step toward enlightenment?

If we consider the last sentence above. Transitioning and or gender identity (transgender) are an impediment to 'blowing out the light'?

Unveiled Artist said:

If I were psychologically a male but biologically a female, Id side with gender because in general (not in buddhism) my identity would be male. Im attached to my identity as a male. Not ego attachment just identity.

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Why is the body not used to establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is?

Unveiled Artist said:

Question: If you are biological male or female what makes you one or the other apart from your sex?

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Im old fashioned. Id say menstrating would be the determining factor.

Unveiled Artist said:

Transition is just a physical way to live as one mentally identifies as male or female.

Transgender are not people who transitioned. They have GD. Transexual (cant figure the politically correct term) is one who transitioned.

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Thank you for confirming this.

Unveiled Artist said:

Its a misconception of action vs. identity. Anyone can cook, but not all people who cook are cooks in profession.

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Are not both action and identity are form of suffering?

Unveiled Artist said:

Anyone can transition, but not all who do are transgender.

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My dear what does that mean?

Unveiled Artist said:

Long story short: its complicated. We need more education before pointing fingers.

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It is complicated. Does that mean you need more education as well. Does this mean everything you have said is a working progress?

Ps

Why do you want to 'blow out' the light?

Cheers

My impression is back in the day people would update their ethics and world view. Eg angels became more of an orthodox part of the faith, and apocalyptic literature developed etc. over the generations.

I have a derisory idea that the Church of England is taking its ethics updates from secular philosophy department at Caltech or something.

Then again...

i.e. is there life after John? Yes, no or maybe?

GrowingSmaller said:

People may say its unbiblical, but then again is the bible (i.e. stipulating an official canon of scripture) actually that biblical

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Hey there friend.

What do you mean here?

Cheers