All Israel is saved

Buzz_B

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Total HOGWASH. You place all things on Adam and leave the omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent God totally out of the picture. I think You think Adam and Satan are omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent.

God is not so small and his plan even with the carnal goat brain you rely on. So what you are saying is Satan and Adam seed must line up with your perverted doctrine so you can explain the parts of scriture that do not fits your bias.
I cannot believe you are trying to limit God's foundation the world to the so called off spring of Adam. Total HOGWASH, SPIN. Talk about total spin and bias and not being opened to the truth. God is not so small and the blood of Jesus so irrelevant.

Your broken cistern is so broken it holds no truth/water.
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that canhold no water.
What you fail to realize, Soar, is that Adam as a physical son of God (Luke 3:38) was the likeness of the spirit Son of God. And as all things were in and through the spirit Son of God, all things pertaining to this earth were to be accomplished in and through Adam as the image of that heavenly process.

Thus as God's heaven was produced in and through God's spirit Son, the world was produced in and through Adam as God's physical son.

I gave you the Scriptures which show us this once before.

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:38

Speaking of Adam's having sinned: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:22

Thus: “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Corinthians 11:3

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.” 1 Corinthians 11:7


Just as an addition edification,

If you want to know what the sin “after the similitude of Adam's transgression” is (Romans 5:14), here it is:

“If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom..” Job 31:33

I am for you, not against you. I want you to get it right.
 
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2tim_215

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Amen to that. :)

Now Soars has turned back to his failure to understand when the founding of this world really was. I have briefly commented on that with him a couple of times before but have not yet gone into the translation details. And he returns to making an issue of the fact that God must first draw them before they can come to Christ, which I have explained to him previously how that works.

I figure that he does not really want to know. He does not really come to the light that his work of pushing false teachings should not be revealed. But fortunately it is only he and those he deceives that his false teachings are not revealed to for what they really are. And joyfully that is not the case with those who do come to the light. He thus has no power over such ones as love God's truth.

Romans 2:4 shows quite clearly how God draws man to repentance and if to repentance then inescapably to Christ as the light. For no true repentance can leave that out.

The distortion of when the “foundation of the world” was, is pivotal to pulling off his false doctrine. So let me take just a moment here to explain it in more detail.

There is good reason why we read that the blood of the prophets of God was shed “from the foundation of the world:

“That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation...” Luke 11:50

That reason is that this world was founded in sin, After Adam sinned. The first of God's prophets to be slain being Abel, who was slain by Cain. And Abel's blood yet speaks from the ground, prophesying to us about the enmity between the seed of the wicked one and the seed of the heavenly Jerusalem of God above.

The Greek word we translate as “foundation” is G2602 “katabole.” Some of Satan's ministers pervert that into something bad by claiming that because it comes up from G2598 “kataballo”, meaning “to throw down”, that it shows man's debasing even before the world began. But that is idiotic thinking. What it actually refers to is the throwing down of seed as in Adam's beginning to sow seed as his children after he sinned. Thus the foundation of this world was the birth of Adam's first children. And that it was after Adam sinned, thus meaning that this world was founded in Adam's sin. And this is why the prophets of God were indeed slain from the foundation of the world as we are told at Luke 11:50. Abel being the first of those slain, he being slain by Cain right there at the start of the world. And with that slaying of Cain the Lamb of God was also first slain on Cain's behalf:

Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Adam's sin was thus “before the foundation of the world”, thus explaining 1 Peter 1:20 “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.” With Adam's sin, God had already began a plan for saving Adam's seed which was soon to begin being thrown down by Adam through the forbearance of God's grace.

But ones such as Soars will do anything to wiggle out of having to see that, for they do not want the light to expose that their doctrine is false. They could yet repent. But they do not make it easy for themselves. They keep confusing themselves with many words.
Excellent spiritual interpretation of the "foundation" of the world Buzz. Paull tells us in 2 Corinth:
2 Cor 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I'm beginning to think that the above verses are an accurate description of Soar.

And as for Soar's continual negative comments regarding what he claims is the "corrupt" the King James, like I've said on many occasions he can use whatever Bible he wants, just whatever he wants and not the 15 he uses which would eliminate much confusion but confusion seems to be something he's partial to (only way he can defend his false doctrine). As long as one has a Strong's to give him the proper Hebrew and Greek translations he should be able to come up with a solid understanding if he has the true Holy Spirit to teach him and not some false spirit(d) guiding him.

Soar prefers to put down the great men of God throughout history who've spent a lifetime studying God's word and the Bible itself, including God denying His ability to preserved His Holy word for us and giving us the means and tools to be able to comprehend it as well as well as provide us with the protection against false teachers and those who would attempt to lead us astray. He claims that we don't need the Word (call it the "letter" and claims that it "kills" when the Bible tells us that the word "brings life") claiming that all you need it the Holy Spirit which is untrue. You need the Holy Spirit to "confirm" and vice-versa if you want to obtain the whole truth and at the same time to test the spirit to be sure that it comes from God and is not some false demonic spirit who is trying to deceive.

The Bible is the believers foundation and Psalms 11:3 tells us if the devil can destroy our foundation, then he is in the position he wants to be in in the hope that he can shipwreck us. Be blessed and don't be fooled.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Excellent spiritual interpretation of the "foundation" of the world Buzz. Paull tells us in 2 Corinth:
2 Cor 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I'm beginning to think that the above verses are an accurate description of Soar.

And as for Soar's continual negative comments regarding what he claims is the "corrupt" the King James, like I've said on many occasions he can use whatever Bible he wants, just whatever he wants and not the 15 he uses which would eliminate much confusion but confusion seems to be something he's partial to (only way he can defend his false doctrine). As long as one has a Strong's to give him the proper Hebrew and Greek translations he should be able to come up with a solid understanding if he has the true Holy Spirit to teach him and not some false spirit(d) guiding him.

Soar prefers to put down the great men of God throughout history who've spent a lifetime studying God's word and the Bible itself, including God denying His ability to preserved His Holy word for us and giving us the means and tools to be able to comprehend it as well as well as provide us with the protection against false teachers and those who would attempt to lead us astray. He claims that we don't need the Word (call it the "letter" and claims that it "kills" when the Bible tells us that the word "brings life") claiming that all you need it the Holy Spirit which is untrue. You need the Holy Spirit to "confirm" and vice-versa if you want to obtain the whole truth and at the same time to test the spirit to be sure that it comes from God and is not some false demonic spirit who is trying to deceive.

The Bible is the believers foundation and Psalms 11:3 tells us if the devil can destroy our foundation, then he is in the position he wants to be in in the hope that he can shipwreck us. Be blessed and don't be fooled.
No I do not put them down I put their followers down people like you stuck in your KJV rutt. I think Luther and many other people of God were amazing for they were in the present truth not like you.

It is called revelation; something you do not have or perceive. Let me start with the present truth.

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.


Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it. When a truth is reveled to you receive it and walk not with mans traditions; but what the spirit of truth reveals. Something’s are beyond what the human mind can receive; that is why God sent His spirit to lead and guide us in all truth. The anointing or the Christ is with in you; if you against the anointing; you are anti Christ. You are against the anoting.

Take Luther, who walked in a present truth for he hears God and walked with what he heard. Not like Lutherans who hear Luther and follow Luther.

Truth was not given once and that is it; that is like saying God is dead and as nothing to say for the past two thousand years. The problem is religious men do not dig deep enough in God's Word, everything they understand must fit in conceived religious box. Oh sure they dig real deep if it fits their religion, their human traditions. Remember the old song; "There is a river that flows from deep within" . Well that river is God's Word thought HIS all mighty awesome spirit; but religion tries to control the flow of the river by damning with their creeds and dogmas.


Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.


Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons of the past 2000 years of man’s confusion and tradition.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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What you fail to realize, Soar, is that Adam as a physical son of God (Luke 3:38) was the likeness of the spirit Son of God. And as all things were in and through the spirit Son of God, all things pertaining to this earth were to be accomplished in and through Adam as the image of that heavenly process.

Thus as God's heaven was produced in and through God's spirit Son, the world was produced in and through Adam as God's physical son.

I gave you the Scriptures which show us this once before.

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:38

Speaking of Adam's having sinned: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:22

Thus: “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Corinthians 11:3

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.” 1 Corinthians 11:7


Just as an addition edification,

If you want to know what the sin “after the similitude of Adam's transgression” is (Romans 5:14), here it is:

“If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom..” Job 31:33

I am for you, not against you. I want you to get it right.
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can

hold no water.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Buzz. What you fail to realize, Soar, is that Adam as a physical son of God (Luke 3:38) was the likeness of the spirit Son of God. And as all things were in and through the spirit Son of God, all things pertaining to this earth were to be accomplished in and through Adam as the image of that heavenly process.

Thus as God's heaven was produced in and through God's spirit Son, the world was produced in and through Adam as God's physical son.

This statement is so wrong. Where do you get Adam was "ikeness of the spirit Son of God"

Adam was a son of God just like Jesus ordain to fall. Ps. 90:1 Not a "likeness of the spirit Son of God"? You are bringing the spirit down to human level instead of understanding what the spiirt is.
 
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Buzz_B

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Excellent spiritual interpretation of the "foundation" of the world Buzz. Paull tells us in 2 Corinth:
2 Cor 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I'm beginning to think that the above verses are an accurate description of Soar.

And as for Soar's continual negative comments regarding what he claims is the "corrupt" the King James, like I've said on many occasions he can use whatever Bible he wants, just whatever he wants and not the 15 he uses which would eliminate much confusion but confusion seems to be something he's partial to (only way he can defend his false doctrine). As long as one has a Strong's to give him the proper Hebrew and Greek translations he should be able to come up with a solid understanding if he has the true Holy Spirit to teach him and not some false spirit(d) guiding him.

Soar prefers to put down the great men of God throughout history who've spent a lifetime studying God's word and the Bible itself, including God denying His ability to preserved His Holy word for us and giving us the means and tools to be able to comprehend it as well as well as provide us with the protection against false teachers and those who would attempt to lead us astray. He claims that we don't need the Word (call it the "letter" and claims that it "kills" when the Bible tells us that the word "brings life") claiming that all you need it the Holy Spirit which is untrue. You need the Holy Spirit to "confirm" and vice-versa if you want to obtain the whole truth and at the same time to test the spirit to be sure that it comes from God and is not some false demonic spirit who is trying to deceive.

The Bible is the believers foundation and Psalms 11:3 tells us if the devil can destroy our foundation, then he is in the position he wants to be in in the hope that he can shipwreck us. Be blessed and don't be fooled.
Yes, you are exactly right. I fully agree.

Ones like Soar distort verses like the one at 1 Thessalonians 2:13 and claim this is the spirit word of God, independent of the written word of God. And by this they entrap many who believe them. So it is that it is very important that we address this egregious error on their parts as a part of our war against the powers of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 “Indeed, that is why we also thank God incessantly, because when YOU received God’s word, which YOU heard from us, YOU accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in YOU believers.”

We need to first ask whether Paul spoke from just the spirit or if Paul spoke from the written word of God as the spirit helped him to understand it. And the latter is unquestionably the case. Paul spoke from the written word of God as the spirit helped him to understand it as did all of the New Testament Bible writers.

While Paul at times did speak of some unique personal experiences, this is not how he generally preached the word of God. When teaching, Paul never spoke things that cannot be found in the Old Testament.

This is where men like Soars stand out as extremely different, for much of what they speak is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures and they pass it off claiming they have a special line to God to know things that were not written. Clearly they do not heed Paul's counsel not to go beyond that which was written. 1 Corinthians 4:6 – And clearly they do not believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Jesus' followers taught others as Jesus taught them:

Luke 24:27 “And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he [Jesus] interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.”

Luke 34:32 “And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning within us as he [Jesus] was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:44-49 “He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations —starting out from Jerusalem. You are to be witnesses of these things. And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Paul was following Jesus' example by himself sticking so closely to the written word and focusing on explaining it to others. This is why the bulk of what either of them taught can be found somewhere in the Old testament writings. But men like Soars has not made the connections and so have jumped to the conclusion that they were often speaking of things not written. And they distort what is said concerning the mysteries of God as proof for their claim that these mysteries were not written in the Old Testament. And this is a lie which they tell, for these mysteries were written about by the Prophets and in the Psalms but just not yet fully understood for no one knows things to the full until they come face to face with the thing spoken about. Jesus was explaining those mysteries to his disciples there in Luke chapter 24 as we read about in part above.

Jesus was typified by David and we know that David highly esteemed the written word of God for David speaks much about it in the Psalms. So when Jesus spoke the following he meant that his Father should sanctify his disciples by means of helping them to more fully understand the Old Testament:

John 17:17 “Sanctify them (Or “Set them apart; Make them holy”) by means of the truth; your word is truth.”

And that spirit clarified understanding of the Old Testament is what also accomplishes the following:

Ephesians 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The spirit brings that written word to life in us, helping us to understand it and live by it. Those who go beyond that have catapulted themselves into arrogance and are setting themselves on high.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Yes, you are exactly right. I fully agree.

Ones like Soar distort verses like the one at 1 Thessalonians 2:13 and claim this is the spirit word of God, independent of the written word of God. And by this they entrap many who believe them. So it is that it is very important that we address this egregious error on their parts as a part of our war against the powers of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 “Indeed, that is why we also thank God incessantly, because when YOU received God’s word, which YOU heard from us, YOU accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in YOU believers.”

We need to first ask whether Paul spoke from just the spirit or if Paul spoke from the written word of God as the spirit helped him to understand it. And the latter is unquestionably the case. Paul spoke from the written word of God as the spirit helped him to understand it as did all of the New Testament Bible writers.

While Paul at times did speak of some unique personal experiences, this is not how he generally preached the word of God. When teaching, Paul never spoke things that cannot be found in the Old Testament.

This is where men like Soars stand out as extremely different, for much of what they speak is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures and they pass it off claiming they have a special line to God to know things that were not written. Clearly they do not heed Paul's counsel not to go beyond that which was written. 1 Corinthians 4:6 – And clearly they do not believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Jesus' followers taught others as Jesus taught them:

Luke 24:27 “And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he [Jesus] interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.”

Luke 34:32 “And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning within us as he [Jesus] was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:44-49 “He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations —starting out from Jerusalem. You are to be witnesses of these things. And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Paul was following Jesus' example by himself sticking so closely to the written word and focusing on explaining it to others. This is why the bulk of what either of them taught can be found somewhere in the Old testament writings. But men like Soars has not made the connections and so have jumped to the conclusion that they were often speaking of things not written. And they distort what is said concerning the mysteries of God as proof for their claim that these mysteries were not written in the Old Testament. And this is a lie which they tell, for these mysteries were written about by the Prophets and in the Psalms but just not yet fully understood for no one knows things to the full until they come face to face with the thing spoken about. Jesus was explaining those mysteries to his disciples there in Luke chapter 24 as we read about in part above.

Jesus was typified by David and we know that David highly esteemed the written word of God for David speaks much about it in the Psalms. So when Jesus spoke the following he meant that his Father should sanctify his disciples by means of helping them to more fully understand the Old Testament:

John 17:17 “Sanctify them (Or “Set them apart; Make them holy”) by means of the truth; your word is truth.”

And that spirit clarified understanding of the Old Testament is what also accomplishes the following:

Ephesians 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The spirit brings that written word to life in us, helping us to understand it and live by it. Those who go beyond that have catapulted themselves into arrogance and are setting themselves on high.
So where was it written Adam was the "Adam as a physical son of God". Adam was the first Adam and Jesus was the second Adam.

If you do not have a special line to God obviously this is why you are so carnal. Where have i spoken something not written. You just did this yourself ""Adam as a physical son of God". The baby goat is written and you ignore it. God caused man to fall in Ps 90:1 and you ignore it. Son's of God is written and you ignore it. You also ignore.
I Pet.3:18-2. "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water
or add to it to spin it to your bias.

You like pointing fingers but you are the one in error.
 
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Buzz_B

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So where was it written Adam was the "Adam as a physical son of God". Adam was the first Adam and Jesus was the second Adam.

If you do not have a special line to God obviously this is why you are so carnal. Where have i spoken something not written. You just did this yourself ""Adam as a physical son of God". The baby goat is written and you ignore it. God caused man to fall in Ps 90:1 and you ignore it. Son's of God is written and you ignore it. You also ignore.
I Pet.3:18-2. "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water
or add to it to spin it to your bias.

You like pointing fingers but you are the one in error.
In the context it is evident that all spoken of are sons:

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

But you are too intelligent for that. :)

You should know that huios in verse 23 carries on through if you know anything really at all about the Greek composition, else none named in that long list are sons and we know that cannot be.
 
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Buzz_B

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In the context it is evident that all spoken of are sons:

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

But you are too intelligent for that. :)

You should know that huios in verse 23 carries on through if you know anything really at all about the Greek composition, else none named in that long list are sons and we know that cannot be.

We are first in the physical Adam as mankind's intended physical birth father. However, all, including Adam, were already in and through God's Son. So it is not about that. But when Adam sinned, that gap that Adam left by Adam's having broken that link through the Son to God needed filling to get the life back to us from God that Adam lost by losing that link through the Son to God. And the only one that could do that for us was God's spirit Son, the next link up from Adam between he and God. That is why the Son had to come in the flesh and that is why he had to fulfill the Old Law.

I mean perhaps you don't get it that his taking out the hand-written document of decrees written against sin in the flesh does not mean he nullified God's Law but that he rescued us from its death penalty on the basis that we imitate his faith.

No, not on the basis that we have a vague faith but that we have a focused faith, focused by the spirit of Jesus' mindset. For now that the life of man belongs to Jesus, he can share that life to whomever he wants. And he only wants to share it with those who honor his Father as he does.

No one can honor the Father by teaching falsities that are not even in the Scriptures.
 
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Buzz_B

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God caused man to fall in Ps 90:1 and you ignore it.
Only ignorance driven by strong bias would see that in Psalms 90:1.

One cannot build entire doctrines from off of one verse, especially when as in this case the idea is an extreme stretch that you are trying to make fit to the verse. Perhaps you need to take some reading comprehension classes.
 
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Buzz_B

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You also ignore.
I Pet.3:18-2. "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water
or add to it to spin it to your bias.
That these were fallen angels is not a stretch. The Scriptures do speak of them.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Your idea is a stretch. Nothing in the Scriptures really supports it. You have to pervert things like the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 to support your idea and then you miss what that parable's real purpose was. It is a mere illustration of the pompous pride of the Jewish religious leaders and their neglect of God's children. Thus it portrays the loss of covenant favor for the Rich Man and the rising to covenant favor of the neglected children. The exiting of the Old Covenant and the entering of the New Covenant.

But you can't see that because you have all your desire and senses focused on seeing in a way that supports your false ideas.

There is no support in the Scriptures for what you believe without you twist the Scriptures and invent it just as you do with that parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

The entire chapter of Luke 16 is about stewardship:

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

In the beginning the Rich man is God accusing those unrighteous Jewish religious leaders of wasting his goods and not taking care of their stewardship over God's belongs, God's children. That the pompous self-righteous religious leaders now being the Rich Man signifies that they elevated themselves to the seat of God, God who is the wealthiest of all but in a selfless way opposite the pride of those Jewish religious leaders.

Those religious leaders cared more about personal wealth and prominence than they did about God's children. That is why the statement in verse 11 "If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?"

Then we see it turns our attention to the ending of the Law Covenant, saying in verse 16, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Now you know that then came the New Covenant. It was out with the Old and in with the New. So what is wrong with you that you don't see that the parable which follows is also about that stewardship of the Jews and the ending of that Old Covenant?

Why don't you reason it through? It is as plain as the nose on our faces what was being illustrated but your false doctrines wants you to focus it on them for your false doctrines are needy. Your false doctrines have taken on a life of their own and they are demanding that you feed them at the expense of your ability to really see.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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That these were fallen angels is not a stretch. The Scriptures do speak of them.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The word fallen angel means fallen messengers and you know this so it just unbelievable your going to insist that a fallen messenger is an angel?

It’s as if II Cor. 11:14. Has no influence on your preconceived understanding.

II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been to being light -- as a masquerading actor. Satan is masquerading as an angel of light according to this verse and so are his messenger. Adam on the other hand is a fallen from the realm of the spirit.


You have a problem with this because you totally dismiss the first chapter of Genesis as if it was a fairy tale.
 
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Not a stretch at all for the Pharisees and the Sadducees were very much a pompous pride of the Jewish religious leaders during Jesus day and Jesus knew this when he addresses them with this parable.


I understand why you dismiss the truth of this parable and how it is pregnant with spiritual symbolism that was never taught you in your religious system. But it is amazing how these facts of this parable are example from scripture not some religious bias opinion based on fitting everything into some man made religious box so you think you understand something spiritual. But that is imposable because you said it your self you do not have a personal relationship with God I, e. “special line to God”.
 
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Only ignorance driven by strong bias would see that in Psalms 90:1.

One cannot build entire doctrines from off of one verse, especially when as in this case the idea is an extreme stretch that you are trying to make fit to the verse. Perhaps you need to take some reading comprehension classes.


That’s funny… At least I have a verse. Where is yours? What extreme stretch?

You will not even address the verse because it totally blows away about half of your false teachings.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

It has its own context of time “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting”


And it declares what God is doing “God. You turn man to destruction”


How can that be a so called stretch?
 
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(To assist with my post number 711)

Luke 16

The setting up of a scenario to learn by:

1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man [Christ who is rich like his Father- 2 Corinthians 8:9; Ephesians 2:4], which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods ].
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.


How a repentant steward ought to act in response to God's correction:

3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors [unto him], and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.


Christ's counsel as the Word of God as to what the pompous Jewish religious leaders need to do:

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?
12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


The self-enriched unrighteous Jewish religious leaders' response to Christ's counsel:

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.


Christ's response to those material-minded Jewish religious leaders' reaction to his counsel:

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


Christ informs them that the Old Covenant has grown old and something new has arisen to take its place:

16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Christ lets them know that this is all happening as was prophesied by the Law:

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.


Now Christ gives an illustration of how and why the change from that Old Covenant which was based in the Law and the prophets to a New Covenant based in the Kingdom of God takes place:

19 There was a certain rich man [the prideful self-elevated materialistic Jewish religious leaders who neglected God's sheep] , which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus [God's sheep kept beggarly by the poor spiritual care received of the unrighteous Jewish religious leaders], which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


The result of the spiritual neglect by their unrighteous shepherds and the intervening of God to rescue them as well as the debasement of their self-righteous religious leaders:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


The spiritual agony of the Jewish religious leaders at the loss of their treasured covenant stewardship and God's favor and the rising of the sheep they abused to favor with God in the New Covenant:

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The irresponsible Jewish religious leaders' unrepentant plea for mercy for God to change his judgment:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue <[please water down your judgment and direct your Lazarus back to us]; for I am tormented in this flame.


God's refusal to recognize their phony unrepentant plea and thus ease their spiritual torment:

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


The judgment of God for their refusal to accept the New Covenant and God's Anointed one, the Christ, is as an impassable chasm they cannot cross for their stubbornness in not repenting:

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.


These unrepentant Jewish religious leaders then beg to at least be allowed to yet direct the work of preaching God's message through their unrighteous mouths:

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


God rejects their unrepentant plea:

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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(To assist with my post number 711)

Luke 16

The setting up of a scenario to learn by:

1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man [Christ who is rich like his Father- 2 Corinthians 8:9; Ephesians 2:4], which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods ].
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.


How a repentant steward ought to act in response to God's correction:

3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors [unto him], and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.


Christ's counsel as the Word of God as to what the pompous Jewish religious leaders need to do:

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?
12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


The self-enriched unrighteous Jewish religious leaders' response to Christ's counsel:

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.


Christ's response to those material-minded Jewish religious leaders' reaction to his counsel:

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


Christ informs them that the Old Covenant has grown old and something new has arisen to take its place:

16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Christ lets them know that this is all happening as was prophesied by the Law:

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.


Now Christ gives an illustration of how and why the change from that Old Covenant which was based in the Law and the prophets to a New Covenant based in the Kingdom of God takes place:

19 There was a certain rich man [the prideful self-elevated materialistic Jewish religious leaders who neglected God's sheep] , which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus [God's sheep kept beggarly by the poor spiritual care received of the unrighteous Jewish religious leaders], which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


The result of the spiritual neglect by their unrighteous shepherds and the intervening of God to rescue them as well as the debasement of their self-righteous religious leaders:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


The spiritual agony of the Jewish religious leaders at the loss of their treasured covenant stewardship and God's favor and the rising of the sheep they abused to favor with God in the New Covenant:

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The irresponsible Jewish religious leaders' unrepentant plea for mercy for God to change his judgment:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue <[please water down your judgment and direct your Lazarus back to us]; for I am tormented in this flame.


God's refusal to recognize their phony unrepentant plea and thus ease their spiritual torment:

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


The judgment of God for their refusal to accept the New Covenant and God's Anointed one, the Christ, is as an impassable chasm they cannot cross for their stubbornness in not repenting:

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.


These unrepentant Jewish religious leaders then beg to at least be allowed to yet direct the work of preaching God's message through their unrighteous mouths:

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


God rejects their unrepentant plea:

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I am glad you see it that way and at a certain level this is true.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16

Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.

The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).

Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
 
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Buzz_B

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That’s funny… At least I have a verse. Where is yours? What extreme stretch?

You will not even address the verse because it totally blows away about half of your false teachings.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

It has its own context of time “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting”


And it declares what God is doing “God. You turn man to destruction”


How can that be a so called stretch?
Your posts have become nothing more than unintelligent rants.

Is it wrong to praise God for having been God to all eternity? I do not not think so.

Why do you feel compelled to turn an expression of praise into evidence for your false doctrine? We often inject such praises when we speak and they are true in and of themselves not needing to be unreasonably connected as you are doing.

I worry you are beyond reaching with sound reasoning.
 
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Buzz_B

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I am glad you see it that way and at a certain level this is true.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16

Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.

The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).

Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
You have two problems. The timing for his parable was set in verse 16 and you have just enough truth mixed in to your hodgepodge to confuse the unwary.

Some of what you say is right but it is evident that you do not understand it. Indeed the ten tribes being dispersed came to represent all meek men worldwide being brought in as precious valuables while God reclaims the remaining remnant of that lost Israel. But all become spiritual Israel.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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You have two problems. The timing for his parable was set in verse 16 and you have just enough truth mixed in to your hodgepodge to confuse the unwary.

Some of what you say is right but it is evident that you do not understand it.
Timing? How do spiritual things have time? Does God have a clock? Its a parable

Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
 
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Your posts have become nothing more than unintelligent rants.

Is it wrong to praise God for having been God to all eternity? I do not not think so.

Why do you feel compelled to turn an expression of praise into evidence for your false doctrine? We often inject such praises when we speak and they are true in and of themselves not needing to be unreasonably connected as you are doing.

I worry you are beyond reaching with sound reasoning.
And yours are not? Oh I am sure it is praise but it is far more than that. Ps. 90 is not a false doctrine it is a scritural and spiritual fact you cannot see. Again this is spin because it does not fit your bias so you try to dismiss this awesome verse.
 
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