Jesus is the SON not the Father.

EveOfGrace, 
You are just as easily DECEIVED as your namesake in the garden of Eden.

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LoL Edp. Dont you see i am an Eve Of GRACE.

And yes, I do beleive fully completely totally with my whole heart and mind that Jesus was born of a virgin, died on a cross, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of Father even as we speak. I believe on Him as in trust and rely, and put my life aside that He might yet live.  I believe fully and trust completely in His Word.

 

this edp, is what happens when you take a portion of what someone sais and quote it: 

Therefore, the verses you quoted harmonize with what Jesus SAID in John 8:40 and John 17:3.

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Of course that is not actually what you said, because i left out part of your statement, just as you keep doing with John 17:1.

Ed i have already said that Jesus WAS a man because it is the only legal way God could redeem us Himself since He stands on His word. Basically, what He sais, becomes law both in heaven and earth. He gave dominion to Adam(man) and man is the ONLY one who has legal right to claim it back.

that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.(2Cor5:19)

God was in Christ.  Being born of flesh was the only way to save us Himself.

If Jesus is GOD who was he praying to while on earth and why did he cry out MY GOD, MY GOD why have you forsaken me at his death,and why did he say let not my will but yours take place in prayer to his father, Why did he say the Father is greater than I if he is one and the same????????????????????????????????????

If Jesus is GOD who was he praying to while on earth and why did he cry out MY GOD, MY GOD why have you forsaken me at his death,and why did he say let not my will but yours take place in prayer to his father, Why did he say the Father is greater than I if he is one and the same????????????????????????????????????

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 If i am not mistaken, Jesus DID come to show us the way. As men, we must pray. In flesh, Jesus prayed. I believe you did use 'while on earth' in your question. When you stated "My God, why have you forsaken me" you then followed it with "at His death".  God is eternal, He is life, and cannot die. By leaving, death came to Jesus physically.  Being without sin Himself, but taking on ours, enabled Him to pay the price we so justly deserved. Death.

Let not my will but yours, indicates Jesus had His own will, being in a separate place(earth) from His Father(heaven), and in flesh, He did have a choice. The Father is greater than I, since the Father begat Him, and sent Him here, for a time then the Father WAS greater. Greater and lesser doesnt denote character, but position. 10 is greater than 4, since 10 has a further position in the number line. Both remain 'numbers'.  It all has to do with that flesh thing we all war against.     

Don't you ever care about what Jesus SAYS? Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).

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Yes of course i care edp. Did i say Jesus wasnt a man?

 

Why don't you believe him?

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I do believe Him.

I guess it boils down to God being omnipotent. Doing whatsoever He will, and if He chose to dwell inside of flesh as a man, to be the Savior of the world, i find no reason to argue with Him. 

And so it is written, The first Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life giving spirit.(1Cor15:45)

EveOfGrace

13th March 2003 at 05:23 PM edpobre said this in Post #224



EveOfGrace,

Don't you ever care about what Jesus SAYS?  Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).

Why don't you believe him?

Ed

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Ed, just wondering, is Jesus the only way to the Father?

Please, don't take offence, but are you trying to say that God the Father didn't give His Son up for whosoever would believe on His Son? JOHN 3:16

Ed, you're right...the idea of the trinity does not come STRAIGHT out of the Bible. But you know, there are a great deal of doctrines that are widely believed among Christians that don't come STRAIGHT out of the Bible. There are many, many verses that support the trinity. If you want, I can show you them, though I'm pretty sure you've probably heard a great deal of them. Now, I have a quick question...do you believe that Christ is in any way a deity....I mean, if he is purely son of God, doesn't he half to be at least part-God? Let me know....thanks.

Ed, I also believe in Jesus.  I also believe whatever Jesus says.  I also believe Jesus is a Man....and I believe he is God.  I believe Jesus says that the father is the only true God...but if he is of one essence with God....that would conclude that God could be the one true God, yet Christ could also be the one true God.  The trinity deals with the contradictions the Bible poses and tries to make sense out of them.  How do you deal with Christ forgiving sins??  That was a quality only God has.  How do you deal with the part about Christ being the Alpha and the Omega?  God also is called the Alpha and the Omega.  If Christ is the beginning and the end...and God is the beginning and the end, they must have both been there at the very beginning.  And what about this....in the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the word was with God.  The word was with God in the beginning.  OK.....so you have those....I guess you probably could explain those away, though I could explain away your arguments as well.  Now look at this.  The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are obviously separate.  I mean, when Jesus was baptized, the Father's voice called out from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him as a dove.  Even so, Jesus saves people.  For example, the man was lowered down on a mat (the crippled man) and Jesus told him "your sins are forgiven"  he forgave his sins and saved him.  Only God can save.  So since Jesus saved the man, there has to be some correlation. 

Ok....anther thing...in Deuteronomy 6:4, and Mark 12:29, I believe it says that there is only One God.

Look at 1 John 1:1-3 
1 John, 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

• 1 John, 1:2
For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;]

• 1 John, 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Ok....this says that which was from the beginning....Christ was from the beginning.  We have heard whatever that is....we have seen whatever that is with our eyes, we have looked upon it, our eyes have handled it....it is the Word of Life.  It says that it's life was MANIFESTED!  Meaning.....the life that was from the beginning, that which we've heard, seen with our eyes, looked upon, handled it....that life became flesh.  Now this life that became flesh SHEW ETERNAL LIFE ON US.  this life saved us.  This life also was with the Father.  Jesus was with the Father, yet he was from the beginning, yet he shewed unto us eternal life.  Finally our fellowship is with the Father AND the Son.  Therefore, since the Son obviously has attributes only God is allowed to have, something must be done to compensate for that.  The trinity is the way to deal with that controversy.  It shows that God can be ONE, of one essence, yet three distinct persons....Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.  This may not sound rational, but we never will know everything fully until we are in heaven.  ok.....so now look at John 1:1-4.  I mentioned it earlier in this post.  It says quite a bit of the same things that 1 John 1:1-3 says.   Look at Titus 2:9-13.

Titus, 2:10
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Titus, 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus, 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus, 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus, 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Wow.....whether or not you believe in the trinity, I still think these are powerful verses, dealing with salvation.  But anywyas, it says the glorious appearing of our great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ who gave himself for us.  Now look at that.....the glorious appearing of our great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ who gave himself for us? hmm...now what does that mean....to me it means that GOD appeared.  if God appeared.....how did he appear??  to me, since I believe Jesus is also God, God appeared when Jesus appeared in the flesh. 

 
Look at John 1:14-17. 
Also look at the following

Matthew, 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew, 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


Jesus was given all power in heaven and in earth?  KEY WORDS: ALL POWER


You've probably already seen all these verses so forgive me if they are a repeat.

Ok....so there are many cases where it says that there is only One God.  I mean, for crying out loud, one of my favorite verses is Hear of Yisrael, the Adonai, our God, Adonai is one!  It also states that Jesus is God's Son.  So how does this work, being that there are many places stating Jesus' power that only God should have?  The answer seems simple....the trinity.

The reason Jesus says "My God, My God... " on the cross is that he is quoting the Old Testament while he fullfills the prophecy.


Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

why do you even ATTEMPT to interpret these verses to mean that Jesus is ALSO God

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I can attempt it, because there is an AND in that verse. This is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. Remember , that THEY, speaking of all other men, are the objects of the knowing. So THEY may know both Father AND Son. That is eternal life, knowing BOTH. No one comes to the Father any other way than through the Son.

  

God GAVE Jesus the authority and power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10; Matthew 28:18; Acts 5:31).

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None of those verses say the Father GAVE Jesus the power to forgive. Mark 2:10 sais "..the Son of Man HAS power on earth to forgive..".  Nothing of it being given by the Father. In fact a previous verse(7) has the scribes accusing Him of blasphemy since "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Matt. talks of authority, but no forgiveness. And Acts is the exaltation to His throne , as Prince and Savior, and His function, to give repentance and forgiveness of sin. It doesnt say God enables Him to give either. Only that He gives it.

Hebrews 1:3 sais...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

   

Both God and Christ SAID "I am the Alpha and the Omega" but they DIFFERED in meaning.

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They did?

 

John 1:1 is talking of the WORD - not Jesus. Jesus is the name of the flesh or man that the WORD turned into when it BECAME flesh (John 1:14). There is NO verse which says that Jesus WAS the WORD that WAS God BEFORE he was born

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Is anyone else confused by that or is it just me?  Its talking of the WORD, (not Jesus) yet Jesus is what the WORD turned into when it(It?) became flesh?  Waiit, the WORD is not Jesus, but IS what Jesus became when IT(not Jesus) turned into flesh, but not Jesus.  Alright i get it now: the WORD was God and with God in the beginning, and it, the WORD a thing that was God became Jesus, but isnt Jesus.  Verse 2 sais: He was in the beginning with God. He? so its not an 'it'.? So verse 14, the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us is something that was in the beginning and was God, and became Jesus but wasnt God or with God? Ed, that totally made no sense. The Word is not an IT, it plainly said HE was in the beginning with God.

    

If you truly BELIEVE whatever Jesus SAYS, forget what others say about him

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I think i shall take that advice, so i will forget what that 'it,word, not Jesus' thing just said.

 

Edp did you ever answer the question: who is the US in Genesis 1:26?  Then God said:Let Us make man in Our image.

 

hey ed....you believe the Bible is all true? you believe everything Jesus says...? then try looking at EVERYTHING; you try to explain away many things, while I take into account those TWO things Jesus said that you use over and over again, and help them form my view. I don't take the trinity as my viewpoint just because that has been the view of the church for over almost two thousand years. I take it because when I look at the Bible I see overwhelming evidence for the trinity. If you come up with a MORE satisfactory way to deal with every bit of evidence, and not just explain them away, then let me know. Meanwhile, maybe look at them and try to see if they fit into your argument, and not just try to make them irrelevant.

Whew. Sorry if that is offending; I'd like to say much more but I don't think it'd be appropriate. About the word....the greek word is LOGOS. I know that. But you know, John is known for using DOUBLE MEANINGS. Look at the light concept (need me to explain ask). In this case he meant that the WORD was Jesus. I mean....taking a look at the passage in 1 John just confirms the whole thing. They coincide perfectly! And both of them support Jesus being the Word. Do me a favor, and show me some more passages that EXPLICITLY say that Christ can't be a part of the one true God. Because the Trinity is trying to keep it to being ONE God, despite what you may think. It is trying to avoid have a polytheistic view of Christianity. Christ was fully man, yet he was fully God. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? If so, do you believe Christ sinned???? If so, how could he die on the Cross so that we could have eternal life?? He had to be perfect to do that....or do you not believe we are saved through him? If you don't believe we are saved through him what do you say to Jesus saying "I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me? I'm very interested to hear what you think. Let me know.

GOD BLESS YOU ALWAYS!

btw.....something I thought of today was, when all of you are making up your arguments for or against the trinity, are you doing it through ISOGESIS or EXOGESIS. In other words, are you taking the belief that you always have been told, and applying verses that you find that support it? or are you looking at the ENTIRETY of the Bible, and trying to make sense of it? Be completely honest with yourself, as I'm sure most if not all of us would hope to be in the EXOGESIS side. I'm sure that at least some of us are from the ISOGESIS side, even if we aren't trying to.

Just a thought.....

God Bless!

Jesus IS God in Human form.

Philip said to Him, "Lord show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not seen Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
- Jesus, claiming He is God. (John 14:8-9)

"I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of these do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make yourself God."
- The Jewish people who wanted to kill Jesus because He was claiming to be God. (John 10:30-33)

"Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
- Jesus, on how He knew Abraham (John 8:58)

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which means, God with us."
- An angel talking to Mary (Matthew 1:23)

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
- Isaiah, describing Jesus (Isaiah 9:6)

"And Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"
- Thomas after realizing Jesus is God (John 20:28)

Edpobre,

John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus "My lord and my God" Jesus did not correct him

John 12:45 "to know him is to know God"
John 18:19 "to receive him was to receive God"
Mark 9:37 "to believe him was to believe God"

Matthew25:31-46 - He has the power to judge all men and nations

John 8:58 he was "I AM" the same name God said he is to Moses in Exodus

John 10:30 "I and the father are one".

Actually Jesus sent an Angel to give John Revelation, I think depending on which bible you use it could mean different things:

[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


1. The Angel says God and not Jesus. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Why didn't the angel say Jesus was the almighty? He clearly says the Lord, which could be construed as being different than Jesus, because Jesus and God are mentioned seperately within the same paragraph.


2. The God and Jesus are referred to seperately. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Here is the example of how the angel makes the distinction. See it is a difficult passage to say for sure.

I am trinitarian BTW, I just thought I would point this out.

It could be seen as God and jesus are 2 seperate entities, it is clear that while Jesus was begotton in the fathers womb, the meaning could be seen as God gave Jesus, his son, the world, therefore making him our Lord by God's appointment.