Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth said:

you said this error as well

"Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)"

but we also read that they did cast out devils

Luke 10:17
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

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I think you're mistaken in thinking that I made any sort of error. Is it really your position that there was no change in the quality of the Holy Spirit's interaction with the saints of the New Testament compared to the saints of the Old Testament? I find it so unbelievable that you would hold this position that I'm bewildered. I'm thinking that I'm not understanding you correctly about this. Because such a position is entirely indefensible against the overwhelming mountain of evidence provided by the recorded words spoken by the Lord Himself:

"On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.' He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)

This is only a taste of the Biblical teaching about the ontological change that was going to take place in the Life of those who believe in Christ. The Scriptural basis of this doctrine is undeniable.

LoveofTruth said:

It wasn't exactly for that reason they could not cast out the many demons. Jesus said

Mark 9:29 King James Version
"And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 17:21 King James Version
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

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Yes, it was DEFINITELY EXACTLY for that reason they could not cast out certain demons:

(Matthew 17:14-20)

When they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus and knelt before Him. “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering terribly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

“O unbelieving and perverse generation!” Jesus replied. “How long must I remain with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy here to Me.” Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

“Because you have so little faith.” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

So, as you can plainly see for yourself, I was not incorrect in saying that it was because they were still of too little faith. What I had said is completely confirmed by the Scriptural testimony above.

LoveofTruth said:

you seemed to not quote these two verses

Mark 9:29 King James Version
"And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 17:21 King James Version
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

maybe they are missing in your corrupted bible version or one of the verses might be missing and the other messed up.

who would take out how to get rid of certain kinds of devils?

and prayer and fasting was the issue, not just as you implied. You were speaking of the Holy Ghost baptism not yet given and other aspects.

It seems when you are rightly rebuked and corrected you simply try hard to deviate your discussion to another area to avoid repentance and admission of your error.

You said originally

"Sure, but not like the sort of power that came upon them from on high at Pentecost. Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)"

you were just simply wrong trying to imply about the power from Pentecost on as a reason why they could not cast them out. Jesus simply spoke of this kind comes not out but by prayer and fasting.

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Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit abiding on Him. His followers did not at that time, "For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified" (John 7:39). Christ taught that the demon could only be cast out by prayer and fasting, but it's not prayer and fasting that casts out the demon, it's by the Holy Spirit that it is cast out. Prayer and fasting are powerful means to acquire the Holy Spirit and greater faith. The disciples did not have, at that time, the gifts of the Holy spirit to the extent that they would receive them later, at Pentecost. They were of "little faith", as those not "waxing strong in the Holy Spirit". This would change at Pentecost.

This discussion, however, has served its intended purpose, which was to show that power resides in the ones who believe in Christ, and that this power is the Holy Spirit. "Grace" is this saving power, and this saving power is "Grace". These are one and the same. Obedient faith (which is the same thing as repentance) is the means for acquiring Grace, or the Holy Spirit.

The Purpose of the Life of those who believe Christ is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

truefiction1 said:

The Holy, Living Tradition of the Church is the Life in Grace in which we, as members, live through faith with obedience to the commandments of Christ. So, I do drink of this water, which is "Grace", or simply "The Holy Spirit". I can drink of it through the "fountain" of my obedient faith. This "Grace", or "the Holy Spirit" is the Living Water springing up to Life Eternal.

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John 4:7:14
7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? 12“You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” 13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

You never:
1. Asked for water.
2. Received water (believed).
3. Lived the eternal type life.
4. Had living water flowing out from you
5. Were a blessing to the world.

You are like the Gentiles who were outside the Assemby of God´s People: still without hope.

Bible2+ said:

That's right.


For example, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect, when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2), will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will just precede the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of the Two Witnesses, because it will involve them prophesying, and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?


Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all of the Holy Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20), or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46). For tongues are one of the Holy Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).


Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however. For when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), in order to bless God, and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).


The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

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1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Actually perfect means to be completed, reaching the ultimate end:

Topical Bible: Perfect
Quote
In the New Testament "perfect" is usually the tr of teleios, primarily, "having reached the end," "term," "limit," hence, "complete," "full," "perfect" (Matthew 5:48, "Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"; Matthew 19:21, "if thou wouldst be perfect; Ephesians 4:13, the King James Version "till we all come.... unto a perfect man," the Revised Version (British and American) "full-grown"; Philippians 3:15, "as many as are perfect," the American Revised Version margin "full-grown"; 1 Corinthians 2:6 Colossians 1:28, "perfect in Christ"; 4:12; James 3:2 margin, etc.).


Abraham saw a little of Godś ability and willingness to protect and provide for him till he was safe, in the beginning:

Genesis 12:
10Now there was a famine in the land; so Abram went down to Egypt to sojourn there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11It came about when he came near to Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, “See now, I know that you are a beautiful woman; 12and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13“Please say that you are my sister so that it may go well with me because of you, and that I may live on account of you.” 14It came about when Abram came into Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful.15Pharaoh’s officials saw her and praised her to Pharaoh; and the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house. 16Therefore he treated Abram well for her sake; and gave him sheep and oxen and donkeys and male and female servants and female donkeys and camels.

17But the LORD struck Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife.18Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19“Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her and go.” 20Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they escorted him away, with his wife and all that belonged to him.
......
This is God teaching Abraham, because he had asked for baptism, asked for revelation, living waters, water from the Rock. The lesson he learned, even imperfectly, was that he could surrender all his life to God, and God would transform his life from living for bread that perished, to living for heavenly treasure, become a blessing to the world, as Adam was supposed to be..

When God again gave him living waters, he became perfect, completed, fully enlightened about Godś ability and willingness to save him:

Genesis 20:1-11
1Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.” 4Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? 5“Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7“Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.
......

So when the perfect came, when he was fully knowledgeable about what God could do and wanted to do, he no longer needed any more revelations, he could see God face to face, as He really was, and he completely gave his life to God, and God blessed him by making him a blessing to the world:

Genesis 22:1-19
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, 1“Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” 3So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. 5Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you.” 6Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together.7Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” And he said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 8Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

9Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14Abraham called the name of that place The LORDWill Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the LORD it will be provided.”

15Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18“In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba.
.......

You will see this chain of events in Joshua´s life and Christ´s life too.

Go ahead, be like Abraham. Confess that you are a sojourner in this Old Man, and ask God to give you living waters, so that He will lead you into the city He has built, the New Man, as well.

Wordkeeper said:

John 4:7:14
7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? 12“You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” 13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

You never:
1. Asked for water.
2. Received water (believed).
3. Lived the eternal type life.
4. Had living water flowing out from you
5. Were a blessing to the world.

You are like the Gentiles who were outside the Assemby of God´s People: still without hope.

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How is it that you've concluded that I have never asked for this water, which is the Holy Spirit, Received the Holy Spirit, been Enlivened by the Holy Spirit, had the grace of the Holy Spirit flowing out from me, and have never been a blessing to the world? On what basis have you formed this opinion?

truefiction1 said:

How is it that you've concluded that I have never asked for this water, which is the Holy Spirit, Received the Holy Spirit, been Enlivened by the Holy Spirit, had the grace of the Holy Spirit flowing out from me, and have never been a blessing to the world? On what basis have you formed this opinion?

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Because you say Grace is energy.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Grace is revelation, faith is loyalty.

Israel failed in the wilderness because of UNBELIEF.

Belief is related to revelation.

When the Pharisees were called, they said we are busy with our farm. When the Sadducees were called they said they had some other work.

They never believed the water was living water, able to bless the world.

They were stuck in the world system, loved money.

Even some of the Gentiles coming to the wedding expected worldly riches. They never wore the right garment.

What do you understand the living water does?

Hint
It doesn't make you glow.

Wordkeeper said:

Because you say Grace is energy.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Grace is revelation, faith is loyalty.

Israel failed in the wilderness because of UNBELIEF.

Belief is related to revelation.

When the Pharisees were called, they said we are busy with our farm. When the Sadducees were called they said they had some other work.

They never believed the water was living water, able to bless the world.

They were stuck in the world system, loved money.

Even some of the Gentiles coming to the wedding expected worldly riches. They never wore the right garment.

What do you understand the living water is?

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"You know that the Living Water is the Holy Spirit, because the Word of God specifically states thin in the Gospel of John: (John 7:38-39) "To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

The Holy Spirit is Grace, and Grace is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God (energy to do work is called power, so power is energy and energy is power). So Grace, Power, Energy, the Holy Spirit. These are all one and the same. Different words are used to refer to the same thing.

So, to be saved means to receive the Holy Spirit.

truefiction1 said:

"You know that the Living Water is the Holy Spirit, because the Word of God specifically states thin in the Gospel of John: (John 7:38-39) "To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

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If the living water is uncreated energy, why does it say Israel failed because of UNBELIEF.

Why is the wedding guest found lacking because his garment was not proper?

Wordkeeper said:

If the living water is uncreated energy, why does it say Israel failed because of UNBELIEF.

Why is the wedding guest found lacking because his garment was not proper?

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The living water is the Holy Spirit. Israel failed to receive the Holy Spirit because it is only "through Faith" that the Holy Spirit can enter into us. The faith that brings the Holy Spirit into us has to be faith that is alive. It must not be the dead faith of the demons, "for even the demons believe, and tremble" (James 2:19). Our faith must "bear fruit befitting of repentance" (Luke 3:8). For "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17).

The wedding guest was not wearing the white garment of "repentance", so had no faith and so could not receive the Kingdom of Heaven, because he could not receive the Holy Spirit: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

truefiction1 said:

The living water is the Holy Spirit. Israel failed to receive the Holy Spirit because it is only "through Faith" that the Holy Spirit can enter into us. The faith that brings the Holy Spirit into us has to be faith that is alive. It must not be the dead faith of the demons, "for even the demons believe, and tremble" (James 2:19). Our faith must "bear fruit befitting of repentance" (Luke 3:8). For "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17).

The wedding guest was not wearing the white garment of "repentance", so had no faith and so could not receive the Kingdom of Heaven, because he could not receive the Holy Spirit: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

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No, the living waters is the revelation that God is able and willing to carry you into Rest.

That is why in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul repeats several times that hundreds of witnesses at many different times and places SAW Christ: God WAS ABLE AND WILLING TO SAVE.

Israel did not believe God was able and willing to save, although she SAW water from the rock, manna from heaven. These were proofs, revelations.

Look at how we understand the situation.


Your view
Baptism is a means of dispensing grace, the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit sanctifies.
Perfection is reached in heaven.


My view
Man rejects the world system, which is in the Old Mankind, in Adam.
God offers alternative.
Man accepts alternative, based on proof of God's ability and willingness.
God presents the Way, Christ: rejecting selfishness, another worldly system.
God rescues from danger that worldly system cannot save from (Abraham, Israel, Christ).
God promises to deliver His People into a New Mankind, who will be a blessing to the world, as promised at the Fall, when the Seed of the woman will crush the serpent, sin, and this will be through Abraham.
Abraham believed, Israel failed, Christ believed.
Israel had the promise, the Kingdom of God, a spiritual union with God, manifested physically in the Tabernacle, where heaven and earth meet.

Israel took the spiritual and changed it into the carnal, made God's House into a den for thieves. God sent servants to receive the souls Israel gathered, but Israel would not bear spiritual fruit, only carnal. They killed the servants. When the Son was sent, they tried to take over the Kingdom, permanently, by killing the Heir.
God destroyed the Temple and gave the Kingdom to those formerly called NOT MY PEOPLE.

Now, whoever was faithful to the resurrected Son would not perish, but would be perfected, reach the destination Adam was meant to reach, be blessings to the world, cleansing it with the Word, just as Christ cleansed His Church with the Word, and continues to do so.


In conclusion, Baptism is asking for revelation of God's alternative, after rejecting the world, because God has prepared a Holy City, the New Mankind, of which Christ is the first fruit.


Do not be like Israel, which committed to follow God, but did not have the resources (courage, faith) to complete building the tower, becoming an object of ridicule as a result.


Luke 14:27-30
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


Acts 5:12, 13
12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico. 13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

Wordkeeper said:

No, the living waters is the revelation that God is able and willing to carry you into Rest.

That is why in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul repeats several times that hundreds of witnesses at many different times and places SAW Christ: God WAS ABLE AND WILLING TO SAVE.

Israel did not believe God was able and willing to save, although she SAW water from the rock, manna from heaven. These were proofs, revelations.

Look at how we understand the situation.


Your view
Baptism is a means of dispensing grace, the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit sanctifies.
Perfection is reached in heaven.


My view
Man rejects the world system, which is in the Old Mankind, in Adam.
God offers alternative.
Man accepts alternative, based on proof of God's ability and willingness.
God presents the Way, Christ: rejecting selfishness, another worldly system.
God rescues from danger that worldly system cannot save from (Abraham, Israel, Christ).
God promises to deliver His People into a New Mankind, who will be a blessing to the world, as promised at the Fall, when the Seed of the woman will crush the serpent, sin, and this will be through Abraham.
Abraham believed, Israel failed, Christ believed.
Israel had the promise, the Kingdom of God, a spiritual union with God, manifested physically in the Tabernacle, where heaven and earth meet.

Israel took the spiritual and changed it into the carnal, made God's House into a den for thieves. God sent servants to receive the souls Israel gathered, but Israel would not bear spiritual fruit, only carnal. They killed the servants. When the Son was sent, they tried to take over the Kingdom, permanently, by killing the Heir.
God destroyed the Temple and gave the Kingdom to those formerly called NOT MY PEOPLE.

Now, whoever was faithful to the resurrected Son would not perish, but would be perfected, reach the destination Adam was meant to reach, be blessings to the world, cleansing it with the Word, just as Christ cleansed His Church with the Word, and continues to do so.


In conclusion, Baptism is asking for revelation of God's alternative, after rejecting the world, because God has prepared a Holy City, the New Mankind, of which Christ is the first fruit.


Do not be like Israel, which committed to follow God, but did not have the resources (courage, faith) to complete building the tower, becoming an object of ridicule as a result.


Luke 14:27-30
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


Acts 5:12, 13
12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico. 13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

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The Holy Spirit is the Living Water (John 7:38-39) "To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

It just doesn't get any clearer than this. "Revelation", since you are so concerned about it, is perhaps one function of the Holy Spirit's ministry, or one of His "gifts", but the Holy Spirit is the Living water that flows from within believers. Courage and faith are the sort of things that the Holy Spirit gives. We don't have them of ourselves. We receive the Holy Spirit, and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

LoveofTruth said:

The apostles did not have the Holy Ghost baptism yet but they did have the Spirit of the Father as the Spirit of Christ in them they were born again by the word and as jesysxsaid the words he spoke were spirit and life.

But this gets into the Trinity or Tri unity and these things get into the great mystery again and spiritual things

“Matthew 10 - 20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

“John 3 - 3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

“Matthew 13 - 16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”

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Yes, as I said earlier, there is a sort of difference between the way that the Holy Spirit is interacting with the servants of God before the world altering "Coming" of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and after that crucial event in God's redemptive work.

"But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." (John 16:7)

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you." (John 16:12-15)

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--" (John 14:16)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)

"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me." (John 15:26)

Also, see (Acts 2). This whole chapter describes the event of the Holy Spirit's coming and the Apostle Peter tells of the Prophet Joel's prophecy about this particular moment in the Life of the Church. He then exhorts the people to be Baptized so they they can become filled with the Holy Spirit.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is the aim, or purpose, of our Faith and Life in Christ. The Holy Spirit is the "Grace" we need, saving us through our Living Faith in Jesus Christ. I hope that most of us will come to agreement on this most important Truth. For then, we can look at and talk about the different ways we can acquire this great Grace (gift of the Holy Spirit within us).

truefiction1 said:

The Holy Spirit is the Living Water (John 7:38-39) "To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

It just doesn't get any clearer than this. "Revelation", since you are so concerned about it, is perhaps one function of the Holy Spirit's ministry, or one of His "gifts", but the Holy Spirit is the Living water that flows from within believers. Courage and faith are the sort of things that the Holy Spirit gives. We don't have them of ourselves. We receive the Holy Spirit, and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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Israel was rejected because she did not accept God's revelation that living a life serving God and others for eternal rreasure with earthly treasure also added was possible, because He was with them. They wanted to go back to the world system, where one lived by looking after themselves, work wit self efort for earthly bread.

Simon Magus was rebuked because although he saw God could and would provide for those who served Him and their fellow men, he nevery wore "wedding garments" , agreed God could and would provide. Instead he began to live selfishly again.

Water from the Rock is receiving living water, the revelation that God could and would provide. If you agreed, drank , you would be a source of living water yourself, blessing the world with revelation that God could and would provide. Rahab was saved like this.

You are not understanding because the Bible was never presented to you like this.

Picture this.

You have a friend who whines about having to be a sellout, about how he would rather be a social worker working for no pay, if he had independent income

Now your son creates an organization at great personal cost, to do meaningful humanitarian work, just for people who wanted to do that kind of work, but were held back because they were without independent income

Subsequently, you go to the friend’s workplace and told him that you could get him a job doing satisfying work, helping people, receive meaningful, everlasting, humanitarian achievement awards, with the added benefit of getting paid well, but it required him to cut ties with all the profiteering activities of his past life.

The only condition was that he had to have faith and not do things that were of his previous life. To confirm it was possible, you show him how you could receive protection and provision even while you sat in his office, and have eyewitness accounts of your Son's success with the Way.


Question
How would you react if your friend took up your job offer, you gave him to your Son, he continued to see protection and provision for everyone at the new workplace, but did not stop indulging in profiteering activity, did not wear the garments befitting a feast?

truefiction1 said:

Yes, as I said earlier, there is a sort of difference between the way that the Holy Spirit is interacting with the servants of God before the world altering "Coming" of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and after that crucial event in God's redemptive work.

"But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." (John 16:7)

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you." (John 16:12-15)

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--" (John 14:16)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)

"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me." (John 15:26)

Also, see (Acts 2). This whole chapter describes the event of the Holy Spirit's coming and the Apostle Peter tells of the Prophet Joel's prophecy about this particular moment in the Life of the Church. He then exhorts the people to be Baptized so they they can become filled with the Holy Spirit.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is the aim, or purpose, of our Faith and Life in Christ. The Holy Spirit is the "Grace" we need, saving us through our Living Faith in Jesus Christ. I hope that most of us will come to agreement on this most important Truth. For then, we can look at and talk about the different ways we can acquire this great Grace (gift of the Holy Spirit within us).

Click to expand...

Would you agree that the Holy Spirit was given to benefit God's People, but only Joshua and Caleb responded?

Hebrews 4:1, 2
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Numbers 14:24
"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

The Holy Spirit did not transform. It informed.

Wordkeeper said:

Israel was rejected because she did not accept God's revelation that living a life serving God and others for eternal rreasure with earthly treasure also added was possible, because He was with them. They wanted to go back to the world system, where one lived by looking after themselves, work wit self efort for earthly bread.

Simon Magus was rebuked because although he saw God could and would provide for those who served Him and their fellow men, he nevery wore "wedding garments" , agreed God could and would provide. Instead he began to live selfishly again.

Water from the Rock is receiving living water, the revelation that God could and would provide. If you agreed, drank , you would be a source of living water yourself, blessing the world with revelation that God could and would provide. Rahab was saved like this.

You are not understanding because the Bible was never presented to you like this.

Picture this.

You have a friend who whines about having to be a sellout, about how he would rather be a social worker working for no pay, if he had independent income

Now your son creates an organization at great personal cost, to do meaningful humanitarian work, just for people who wanted to do that kind of work, but were held back because they were without independent income

Subsequently, you go to the friend’s workplace and told him that you could get him a job doing satisfying work, helping people, receive meaningful, everlasting, humanitarian achievement awards, with the added benefit of getting paid well, but it required him to cut ties with all the profiteering activities of his past life.

The only condition was that he had to have faith and not do things that were of his previous life. To confirm it was possible, you show him how you could receive protection and provision even while you sat in his office, and have eyewitness accounts of your Son's success with the Way.


Question
How would you react if your friend took up your job offer, you gave him to your Son, he continued to see protection and provision for everyone at the new workplace, but did not stop indulging in profiteering activity, did not wear the garments befitting a feast?

Click to expand...

This, what you illustrate here in this example, is the equivalence of "lack of true repentance". I understand what you're saying. Do you understand, however, that without the Holy Spirit giving a person the strength of bear fruit of true repentance it isn't possible for the person to do so? The Holy Spirit (Grace) is the power a person receives in order to live according to the Life of repentance.

Wordkeeper said:

Would you agree that the Holy Spirit was given to benefit God's People, but only Joshua and Caleb responded?

Hebrews 4:1, 2
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Numbers 14:24
"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

The Holy Spirit did not transform. It informed.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree that the Holy Spirit is offered (given) to all, but that only some respond. This is what our Lord means when He says "For many are called, but few chosen". (Matthew 22:14) This He said about the wedding guest who was cast out for not bearing fruit befitting of repentance (that is, he was not dressed in his wedding garment).

Grace (the Holy Spirit) is a free gift to all. Yet only some will respond with True Faith. The True Faith that continuously opens the door for the Holy Spirit to enter into us is "Faith with works (works of repentance)". To repent is to strive to obey all of Jesus' commandments and to keep all of His sayings. This is what it is to "abide" in Jesus; if we struggle our best to keep His sayings with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is our "Helper".