Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

JIMINZ said:

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Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Are you Dead to the Law?

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When reading the very first verse of this chapter we see Paul say something incredibly important to the rest of the chapter:

Romans 7:1 - 7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

He's talking to those that know the law, meaning, if you're not aware enough of the Torah (the law, or instructions of God) you'll not understand what Paul is saying here.

Why? Because, the the whole chapter revolves around the concept that is lain out in the next few verses (verses 2-4) They describe what the law says about adultery. In a brief explanation, according to Torah, if a wife commits adultery, and the husband "puts her away", she's cursed. Cursed to be bound to the law that binds her to her the husband she was unfaithful to. She cannot remarry, she has to be a widow for either the rest of her life, or the rest of her Husband's life.

Romans 7:2-4 -
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

He goes on to explain in verse 4, that, that is exactly what happened. Israel was bound to be without a way to reconnect to God, up until Jesus came down and died. Jesus is God in the flesh, and His death did more than take away sins, it freed those of His children that were cursed to never be allowed to return to Him because of God "putting them away" for their adultery ("putting them away" is a term in Torah, that was supposed to be how a situation of adultery was originally intended to happen, until as Jesus points out, due to their hardened hearts, Moses permitted divorce.)

Now, as Romans 7:4 points out, because of Jesus (God) dying for us, we can now (since God died) return to God, by remarrying another (Jesus - aka. God). This is how we were to be able to return. And as Romans 11 points out, by faith in Jesus, we are grafted into Israel.

This is just the beginning.

This is what he means in verse 6 of Romans 7, by being free from the law. We're free from the law that we were cursed to be bound to (the law that bound us and kept us from God because of our adultery).

Otherwise, why would he say all of these things, just to then turn around in Romans 8 and say this:

Romans 8:6-7 -
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What is not subject to the law of God? The carnal mind. What does it mean for someone to be carnally minded? It means death.

If not being subject to the law of God is to be carnally minded, and death, then what is spiritually minded, since it is life and peace?

Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In Romans 7, we see that Paul himself sought after keeping the law with his mind, and his desire, but because of his flesh, he was unable:

Romans 7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He here says that Jesus is what will save him from this conundrum of being unable to be perfect in God's law. Paul's writings are easy to misunderstand, and Peter himself mentions this, but all throughout the NT, Paul talks about how glorious and wonderful following the law of God truly is. But, as Peter says, people twist it to fulfill the flesh.

The flesh is carnal, the law is spiritual. If you are being led by a spirit to disobey God's law, it's a spirit, but it's not the spirit of God. God's spirit wouldn't encourage disobedience, but O-bedience.

Lily of Valleys said:

Let me repeat again. This is a thread in a theology subforum, we are here to discuss about theology, not making accusations. If you have no interest in participating in the theological discussions in this thread other than being disruptive and distracting from the topic, it would be appreciated if you would kindly ignore this thread.

I would also like to remind you of the following Christian forum rules:

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Where is your discussion of the OP or its contents? I haven't found any.

Your first verse is about wilful sin with no discussion in your unedited OP. Who goes back to see if a post is edited? I don't. None of my posts prior to this one knew you edited the OP. BTW your additional verse lists sins. By the rest of your post you're accusing others of repeatedly committing those sins. Are you talking about those not reading and participating here? Maybe you could be retaliating against OSAS. If so there are plenty threads on it.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

Then you quote

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (Romans 6:15-16 NASB)

This indicates to me sin isn't related to the law. The phrase "sin because we are not under law" says this.

Both "willfully, Shall we sin and Are we to continue in sin" from your quotes indicate practice sin. Yet you specify no sin. It should be reasonable to ask what you are talking about. This is different for lots of people. For instance there's plenty possible violations (sins) found in the OT which aren't found in the NT. Those not found in the NT aren't sins under the law. Sin was before the law (Romans 5:13). Then not performing certain things became sin for Israel and no one else. My take is you most likely don't wear those little things on the fringes of your garment required by the law as sin. Or how about binding the ten commandments on your forehead or door posts? I find you too be selective about what you have in mind through your quotes found in the thread.

There are so many ways to go from here it would have to be done in multiple posts.

Notable are

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8 NASB)

What sins? The wearing of those little things on the borders of your garment or posting the ten commandments on your door posts? How do we cover something that isn't there? And why if it shouldn't bother someone?

Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions (Proverbs 10:12 NASB)

Why are you posting this especially with no comment? Where is the discussion?

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins (James 5:19-20 NASB)

Strays from what truth? Who are you talking to or about? This is a Christians only section.

I just don't understand why you're claiming harassment.

listed said:

I'm reasonably sure what she meant. I can't state it without her admission. If I did I would be sanctioned for accusing of something that doesn't exist. I know murder, lying, adultery are sin. She must be talking about something I don't know. Otherwise she is making a general statement accusing others she doesn't know. Even if she did this isn't the place to make public statements about it. This is bating and against the rules. Supporting her argument with a quote listing sins (works of the flesh) makes no sense if this isn't the case.

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What bothers me is she says discussion forum and provides little to none. She does jump right on anything she thinks is sin when one uses a word or admits to something socially enforced as sin but unsupportable with Scripture. Interesting. At the very best I would say she is not communicating very well.

bugkiller

jmldn2 said:

And how does my post say we are obligated to the law? We are obligated to Jesus Christ and His example. We are to search for perfection, yet we know as long as we live in this earthly body we will never be able to reach that goal. I've explained why. No need to go over that again.

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Do you mean by "His example" we are to keep the law?

bugkiller

Lily of Valleys said:

Any sin, but mainly aim at sins that we are aware that they are sins but we still choose to do it.

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4:17 NKJV)

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Are there any sins you would like us to know about?

bugkiller

Lily of Valleys said:

Hello klutedavid.

The question is not are Christians saved if they commit sin. The question is whether professed Christians are saved if they know that they are committing a sin but still deliberately commit the sin, over and over again, with no intention to make effort to eliminate that sin from their life.

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Oh there are different classes or types of Christian. Many attend church and call themselves Christian. I have a neighbor lady who professes to be Christian and tried very hard to make me a notch on her bed post. I will not even do business with her any more.

bugkiller

Lily of Valleys said:

I have not gone through the Gospels to make a statistics on what Jesus judged for, but you might want to consider adding the following verse in your list said by Jesus that includes the sexually immoral as those who will be outside of the Holy Jerusalem when Jesus returns:

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Revelation 22:14-15 NKJV)

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Please name the commandments a person has to keep to acquire this right.

Because of you quotes in this thread, I wonder if you are calling the bolded Christians in question from your original OP and thread title.

bugkiller

Lily of Valleys said:

I don't think I have read that particular section you mentioned, and it is not about the sabbath. I am referring to any sin that are still considered to be sins under the new covenant.

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

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Why are you quoting this passage? I did not indicate any of these as sins or even problems for Christians.

bugkiller

Alexpro said:

So your saying everything is done away with so then are the ten commandments are done away with; Of course not.

Jesus said he came to fullfill not to take away. I don't think everything is done away with like the ten commandments. Keep thy Sabbath is a commandment. Nobody keeps it. That's sin. People are committing sin and they don't even realize it.

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No and the covenant with Noah precedes the one made exclusively with Israel. The covenant made with Noah is only rescinded concerning Israel.

The first covenant (with Israel) is rescinded by the second covenant based on promises opposed to performance to demands (law). Heb 10:9, 8:6

bugkiller

Old Trapper said:

Interesting question, however, I see no purpose for it since the scripture is quite clear on the topic. Well, common English would be quite clear also.

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Really? I have been here for a few years. What do you think the definitions I asked for are? Rest assured I know of some here at CF that disagree with each other.

bugkiller

1stcenturylady said:

So do we agree, or disagree. I'm not sure.

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Neither am I. You gave nothing to compare your question with.

bugkiller

Old Trapper said:

How is he trying to "force" one to believe what he says?

Gods Holy Days, or Mans Holidays. Which do you celebrate?

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What Holy days does God require of the Christian? Please support with Scripture.

bugkiller

SBC said:

Don't know what you refer to as an escape clause. Could you be more specific?

Thanks,
God Bless,
SBC

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I Jn 1:9

bugkiller

Old Trapper said:

Actually no. I guess I should have been more accurate in my posting of that particular verse since it also refers to the Prophets, and I am certain not all prophecies have been fulfilled:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

In fact, the Law is still our guide not that we are bound by it. For without the Law we would not know good and evil.

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Rom 8:14, Gal 5:18

bugkiller

listed said:

Scripture quotes are great. In some cases not discussing a quote does nothing. Without it anyone who responds would only be guessing at what a person means with a particular Scripture, such as the case above. You need to identify "His" and or those "commandments." With out such an explanation you're really calling people here dogs and sorcerers committing some specific sin and practicing a lie. What lie would posters here be practicing?

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I noticed there are two distinct different groups in that verse.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

I Jn 1:9

bugkiller

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You're not going to like this, but I don't see it as an escape clause. Verse 9 follows verse 8 which is not about a Christian; therefore, verse 9 is how to become a Christian. Once a true Christian, then they are verse 7. A true Christian is dead to sin, and not in the flesh because they are following the Spirit, but only if they have truly repented in the first place and have received the promised Spirit. So if they don't commit willful sin, which is the kind meant, then verse 9 is no longer needed by a true Christian.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

bugkiller said:

What Holy days does God require of the Christian? Please support with Scripture.

bugkiller

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Let us see. What are Gods Holy Days? Do you know?

Passover, The Day of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, The Day of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The Feast of Tabernacles, and the Sabbath. Did I miss any?

And now there are what, 11 National Holidays? Tell me which ones do you celebrate? And how many of those are based on pagan holidays?

Here is the problem. You seem to want to argue that since there is no New Testament command to keep the holy days, they should not be kept. But where is there any New Testament command to keep the Sabbath? Where is there in the New Testament that homosexuality is sin? Abortion? What the "christian" of today wants to ignore is that the Old and New Testaments are inseparably linked. The New Testament is a continuation of the Old. Christ and the apostles knew this. This is the reason they kept the Sabbath and the holy days. Christ taught in Mark 7: 7, 9 “In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men…full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition”

In Isaiah 1: 13-15 we read: "Stop bringing meaningless offerings! New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations -- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moons, festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen.

Your hands are filled with blood"

I long ago learned that it is the rare man that is actually concerned with the desires of God over his own pleasure.

Old Trapper said:

Let us see. What are Gods Holy Days? Do you know?

Passover, The Day of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, The Day of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The Feast of Tabernacles, and the Sabbath. Did I miss any?

And now there are what, 11 National Holidays? Tell me which ones do you celebrate? And how many of those are based on pagan holidays?

Here is the problem. You seem to want to argue that since there is no New Testament command to keep the holy days, they should not be kept. But where is there any New Testament command to keep the Sabbath? Where is there in the New Testament that homosexuality is sin? Abortion? What the "christian" of today wants to ignore is that the Old and New Testaments are inseparably linked. The New Testament is a continuation of the Old. Christ and the apostles knew this. This is the reason they kept the Sabbath and the holy days. Christ taught in Mark 7: 7, 9 “In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men…full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition”

In Isaiah 1: 13-15 we read: "Stop bringing meaningless offerings! New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations -- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moons, festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen.

Your hands are filled with blood"

I long ago learned that it is the rare man that is actually concerned with the desires of God over his own pleasure.

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It is because of what the Holy Days, or holidays have came to, or come to, or eventually come to, think about holiday's like Halloween, and what people do on new years, and how Easter is almost a mockery of God... In Jesus Day, the cleansing of the temple...

Over time, nations prospered, got worse, because of this...

Neogaia777 said:

It is because of what the Holy Days, or holidays have came to, or come to, or eventually come to, think about holiday's like Halloween, and what people do on new years, and how Easter is almost a mockery of God... In Jesus Day, the cleansing of the temple...

Over time, nations prospered, got worse, because of this...

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We pervert things, maybe even the ones you listed @Old Trapper

Neogaia777 said:

We pervert things, maybe even the ones you listed @Old Trapper

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Cause we forget God, that's when it happens...