Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth · Jan 30, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Where did I say "sacraments". You said that Communion is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink". I agreed with you and showed you the Scriptures that also say that it is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink". That's all that was needed to be said at the time, because of the ridiculously slanderous insinuations you made towards Communion. You made these slanderous insinuations because you lack the understanding that only the Holy Spirit can give. This is not an understanding that can be read in a book or expressed with sentence combinations, not even in the Bible where the understanding given only by the Holy Spirit is absent in they who read it. This is knowledge of God that comes only through the experience of Communion with God in the Holy Spirit. They who lack the knowledge of God in the Holy Spirit are without understanding, and so they "slander what they do not understand". (Jude 1:10) On the basis of everything you have stated about Communion, and all of the Scriptural quotes you've included in support of your attitude towards Communion, it is painfully clear to me that you are not nearly capable of conversing about such things. So I repeat: let's not.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)

You're defining the profound mystery of Communion as a natural man would, through the power of your intellect and not by the knowledge that only comes from the Spirit of God. Your theology and spirituality has much more to do with "conceptualization" than actual Heavenly Experience in the Holy Spirit. For this reason, the above quoted Scripture describes you, not the ancient Church. There isn't anything "natural" about the "profound mysteries". These "mysteries" are "foolishness" to the natural man, "neither can you know them", because "they are spiritually discerned."

I do not agree with you about the spiritual meat and spiritual drink by the way it is not referring to physical bread and wine we literally eat

I have shown you clearly that you have another gospel and you add many things to the gospel

I am so opposed to your Eastrrn Orthadix religion I see some things that are common to many churches but there is a great conflict against truth in your religion from the true faith

This is very serious

And like I said I see your Easyern Orthadix religion as only slieghtly different in form and practice from the Roman Catholic Church

You say I slander your views etc I am trying to be as gracious as I can but the words I want to use I hold back from to be more gentle.

But it is very serious .

God has shown me many things in the truth and the word and this is not from my natural intellect as you can see many scriptures give the answers I share.

I think your mind is already made up no matter what truth you would hear you would not accept even the strongest evidence from scripture if it exposes your wrong stance and your entire Eastern Orthadix views,

If you do hear things that challenge you you simply have your mind made up that I must be wrong by even if you cannot show me anything that I have said is wrong

Do you believe in sacraments and that the church dispenses these so called “sacraments and grace to those who do such things? As far as I understand there are things called “sacraments” in the Eastern Orthadix church .

LoveofTruth · Jan 30, 2018

truefiction1 said:
The holy Apostle Paul calls the "marriage" between Christ and the Church a "profound mystery". So it is only natural the the Eucharist, which is understood to be the Holy Union of the Bridegroom and His Bride (God and His beloved) is called a "holy mystery". This seems good the the Holy Spirit, and to us, and so we say Holy Mysteries. This has nothing to do with covering any heresies.

Show me the word “Eucharist” in scripture and show me that the spiritual communion is as you put it “natural”

Your words “it’s only natural that the Eucharist“

The natural man does not understand the things of the Soirit as you din’t.

And you saiid this

“the Eucharist, which is understood to be the Holy Union of the Bridegroom and His Bride (God and His beloved) is called a "holy mystery".”

Where is such a thing in scripture this is your made up stuff.

The man is a type of Christ and the woman a type of the church. There is nothing in Ephesians 5 of some Eucharist the chapter has nothing to do with eating literal bread and wine

The word Eucharist is not the grace of God spoken of in scripture. It won’t help to go and show the Latin meaning and it’s origin here. It is not scripture.

truefiction1 · Jan 30, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Your own words prove you wrong :

Quote
"And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)

The work of the Holy Spirit is to teach (unveil, explain) and bring back to mind what the Word of God teaches.

Prove me wrong about what? They prove all that I've said. The first quote says that the disciples will be "clothed with power from on high". This power that they will be clothed with is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is power. They who are clothed with the Holy Spirit are clothed with Power from God. Yes, this means they will receive the power to remember and to understand all that Christ said and taught, but it is not limited to this alone. The Apostles had power to work great signs and mighty miracles. This was on account of the Holy Spirit (Grace) of God residing in them.

Bible2+ · Jan 30, 2018

LoveofTruth said in post #397:

Paul says they did eat and drink THE SAME spiritual meat and drink as us.

1 Corinthians 10:3,4 KJV)
"3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

No, 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 does not mean that believers during Old Testament times obtained the same thing as Christians, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:40).

Instead, in 1 Corinthians 10:3-4, the apostle Paul means that all of the Israelites during the Exodus ate the same literal manna of Exodus 16:15, and drank the same literal water of Exodus 17:6, just as the Israelites during the Exodus "were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Corinthians 10:2). But this did not mean that all of them would obtain ultimate salvation, for "with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness" (1 Corinthians 10:5).

And this loss of their salvation was an example of how Christians can lose their salvation. For "these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things" (1 Corinthians 10:6); "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12). That is, even after Christians have partaken of the literal flesh and blood of Communion (John 6:53-55, Matthew 26:26-28), and have been water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #404:

And a spirit hath not flesh and bone.

Luke 24:39 is referring to the disembodied spirit of a dead person, which Jesus Christ was not when he spoke Luke 24:39 in his immortal, resurrected, physical body, which would also have a spirit, just as we have both a body and a spirit at the same time (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And obedient Christians can be called "spiritual" even while they are still in their mortal, physical bodies (Galatians 6:1).

LoveofTruth said in post #404:

. . . we don't know Jesus after the flesh now . . .

Note that 2 Corinthians 5:16 also says that we know no man after the flesh.

In 2 Corinthians 5:16, "after the flesh" is not literal, but a figurative reference to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-3, Romans 7:5-6), as opposed to the spiritual ministration of the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

LoveofTruth said in post #404:

We also read that the bread in the wilderness (the manna) is specifically not this spiritual meat from heaven as Jesus said

It was, but it could not give immortality, like eating Jesus' literal flesh does (John 6:58, John 6:51).

LoveofTruth said in post #404:

The word "spiritual" used in 1 Cor 10 means non carnal.

No, it doesn't, if you mean non-physical. For, again, obedient physical Christians are called "spiritual" (Galatians 6:1).

Bible2+ · Jan 30, 2018

LoveofTruth said in post #422:

. . . believers communicating or partaking of the spiritual body and blood of Christ, or that spiritual supper, spoken of (Rev. 3:20)"

Regarding Revelation 3:20, it was not addressing non-Christians, as is often assumed, but was addressing people who were already Christians, already part of the Church (Revelation 3:14,22). But after entering into initial salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), those addressed had became so lukewarm in their works (Revelation 3:15-16) that they were in danger of ultimately losing their salvation (Revelation 3:16). For Christians can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30). Also, those addressed had become sinful (Revelation 3:17-18), so that they were warned that they needed to repent (Revelation 3:19). For Christians can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sinfulness (Hebrews 10:26-29).

So the shut door in Revelation 3:20, separating the Christians from Jesus Christ, can represent the danger which they were in of ultimately losing their salvation from hell. Their hearing Jesus' knockings, His warnings to them (Revelation 3:19,16), and getting up to open the door to Him, can then represent their repenting from their laziness, and sinfulness, and entering back into an ultimately-saving relationship with Jesus.

Jesus Christ's eating in Revelation 3:20 can represent His obedience to God the Father, His doing good works for the Father (John 4:34). The Christian in Revelation 3:20 eating with Jesus can then represent that Christian having real fellowship with Jesus, and God the Father, by his obedience to Jesus (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

LoveofTruth · Jan 31, 2018

Bible2+ said:
No, 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 does not mean that believers during Old Testament times obtained the same thing as Christians,

Yes it does mean that exactly. It just refutes your doctrine so you don't like it.

Bible2+ said:
"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:40).

They did not have the fulness and Holy Spirit baptism as we do, but they were still saved, born again had the spirit of Christ in them and the seed in them. As many many scriptures can show. But again some people doctrine doest't understand this and so when they see the mystery they are so confounded by it that they have try and make it fit into their theology to make sense.

Bible2+ said:
Instead, in 1 Corinthians 10:3-4, the apostle Paul means that all of the Israelites during the Exodus ate the same literal manna of Exodus 16:15, and drank the same literal water of Exodus 17:6

I marvel at how you just try to change Paul's words to fit your doctrine and wrest the scriptures to your own destruction.

It says "the SAME” spiritual meat" and you say the same Literal manna", ??? thats just making up your own stuff and changing scripture. This is great danger spiritually.

I already showed you that the meat that endureth unto everlasting life is not the manna in the wilderness as jesus said himself in John 6. But this would confound your doctrine so you have to try hard to twist text to make them fit your thinking, even , it seems if you don't fear to change the text and add your own words

Here is the true biblical holy scriptures

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Bible2+, new version of his own scriptures reads,

"all of the Israelites during the Exodus ate the same literal manna of Exodus 16:15, and drank the same literal water"

I choose to follow holy scripture not your version.

Notice also that they drank of that Rock Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. This any man here would be all men of all time.including as Paul said “out fathers”. Also Paul connects the OT saints with himself and the believers he writes to when he says "our fathers ..the same spiritual meat...drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."1 Cor 10:1,3,4 KJV) " Showing the connection to Christ of both them and us. We see this connection in Hebrews 11 also about OT saints having faith.

Paul also connects them to Christ as we are when he says a few verses down

"9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents."

Then he speaks of this verse

"17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

Speaking of common union in the body. Granted this is speaking to the Corinthians about their gatherings. But there is a subtle play on words and connection to the OT saints who ate the same spiritual meat and drink. That how it appears when i read it.

I already showed you that the entire context of chapter 10, 11, 12 is about the common union of the body of Christ and the love power and gifts of God through all of us as one bread and one body, and how we are all partakers of that one bread. If we are the one bread, then we are also partakers of that one bread ( which is the body of Christ. We edify one another in Christ as the head * Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV, 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV etc)

Bible2+ said:
just as the Israelites during the Exodus "were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Corinthians 10:2). But this did not mean that all of them would obtain ultimate salvation, for "with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness" (1 Corinthians 10:5).

And this loss of their salvation was an example of how Christians can lose their salvation. For "these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things" (1 Corinthians 10:6); "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12). That is, even after Christians have partaken of the literal flesh and blood of Communion (John 6:53-55, Matthew 26:26-28), and have been water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

I believe a believer can fall away.

Bible2+ said:
Luke 24:39
Note that 2 Corinthians 5:16 also says that we know no man after the flesh.

In 2 Corinthians 5:16, "after the flesh" is not literal, but a figurative reference to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-3, Romans 7:5-6), as opposed to the spiritual ministration of the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

"...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

I am speaking about Christ himself. This would rebuke those who think that the bread is Christ literal fresh or real presence in bread, and by this verse it cannot be his flesh. Showing that the Lord is not literal in the bread

Wordkeeper · Jan 31, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Prove me wrong about what? They prove all that I've said. The first quote says that the disciples will be "clothed with power from on high". This power that they will be clothed with is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is power. They who are clothed with the Holy Spirit are clothed with Power from God. Yes, this means they will receive the power to remember and to understand all that Christ said and taught, but it is not limited to this alone. The Apostles had power to work great signs and mighty miracles. This was on account of the Holy Spirit (Grace) of God residing in them.

John 14:26 which you quoted teaches that the power of the Holy Spirit is the explanation of Scripture that would convince listeners, just like Moses's staff convinced Israel, to come out of the world system.

Jeremiah 23:29
29 “Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

LoveofTruth · Jan 31, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Yes, but isn't the Power of the Father in the Holy Spirit Who proceeds From the Father, in accordance with the Word of the Father? Doesn't Scripture quite undeniably equate the Power of God with the Spirit of God? I'm quite certain it does. Besides, Isn't the Holy Spirit He Who is sent from the Father to be our Helper now?

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

"But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned. I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you." (John 16:7-15)

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

And what of all the other Scriptures, which both individually and collectively declare, irrefutably, that the Holy Spirit of God is the Power of God?

Jesus also gave them power before the Holy Ghost baptism was given in Matthew 10

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."(Matthew 10:1 KJV)

truefiction1 · Jan 31, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
John 14:26 which you quoted teaches that the power of the Holy Spirit is the explanation of Scripture that would convince listeners, just like Moses's staff convinced Israel, to come out of the world system.

Jeremiah 23:29
29 “Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

Yes, but the power of the Holy Spirit has always done additional works, besides illumining the Word of God, and continues to do additional works, beyond illumining the Word of God. The Word of God is not by any means silent about those additional works of the Holy Spirit.

truefiction1 · Jan 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus also gave them power before the Holy Ghost baptism was given in Matthew 10

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."(Matthew 10:1 KJV)

Sure, but not like the sort of power that came upon them from on high at Pentecost. Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)

Bible2+ · Jan 31, 2018

truefiction1 said in post #449:

Yes, but the power of the Holy Spirit has always done additional works, besides illumining the Word of God, and continues to do additional works, beyond illumining the Word of God. The Word of God is not by any means silent about those additional works of the Holy Spirit.

That's right.

For example, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect, when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2), will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will just precede the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of the Two Witnesses, because it will involve them prophesying, and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all of the Holy Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20), or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46). For tongues are one of the Holy Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however. For when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), in order to bless God, and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

truefiction1 · Jan 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Show me the word “Eucharist” in scripture and show me that the spiritual communion is as you put it “natural”

Your words “it’s only natural that the Eucharist“

The natural man does not understand the things of the Soirit as you din’t.

And you saiid this

“the Eucharist, which is understood to be the Holy Union of the Bridegroom and His Bride (God and His beloved) is called a "holy mystery".”

Where is such a thing in scripture this is your made up stuff.

The man is a type of Christ and the woman a type of the church. There is nothing in Ephesians 5 of some Eucharist the chapter has nothing to do with eating literal bread and wine

The word Eucharist is not the grace of God spoken of in scripture. It won’t help to go and show the Latin meaning and it’s origin here. It is not scripture.

The word Eucharist is from the Greek New Testament word "eucharistia", which means "thanksgiving, the giving of thanks". God gives us the free gift of salvation by Christ and the Holy Spirit and we accept His salvation with thanksgiving, and Joy! He Loved us first, even though we were sinners not deserving of mercy, dies for us, and we return His Love with our thanks and praise, in the righteousness, peace and joy of the Holy Spirit. This is a profound mystery. It must be experienced by each believer and it is only experience in the Holy Spirit, who teaches the deep things of God -- namely His unspeakable Love and Glory. It is a "mystery" because the intellect can neither fathom it nor pass the experience on to another person through mere words or concepts. What is experienced is Love beyond comprehension. What is experienced is God Himself (God is Love). Nobody can know this Love except it be revealed to them in the Holy Spirit, and the spiritual eyes must be on the Savior Jesus Christ's sacrifice at the moment the Holy Spirit reveals Him ("Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you."}. The great gift of Love that Christ gives is His own most pure body and His own precious blood, shed for us sinners. We receive the Gifts which He has instructed us to eat and drink. We eat and drink the Life of God, the Holy Trinity, when we consume it in the Holy Spirit. It is Heaven. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. This is not "eating and drinking" ("Don’t you have your own homes in which to eat and drink?" - 1 Corinthians 11:22). It is the spiritual meat and drink which our Lord offers us, and for which we give Loving thanks by the awesome power of the Holy Spirit. This "Heaven" cannot be taught, except by the Holy Spirit, in the way that He also showed me.

None of this is made up. It is the clear teaching of Scripture and the Holy Spirit bears witness in all the saints who have been born up into Heaven in the Holy Spirit while partaking of this mystery: the "profound mystery of Christ and the Church", of the Savior and the saved, of the Bridegroom and His Bride.

We don't want to be like the one who showed up at the wedding banquet without wearing a wedding garment (Matthew 22:11-13). These are those who do not "discern the body" and so eat and drink condemnation unto themselves. They don't approach the mystery with enough fear of God (repentance) and Faith, and so they weren't working to sufficiently prepare themselves, having taken the matter far too lightly (1 Corinthians 11:29-30). By doing so, they were removing from their arsenal the one thing by which they surely receive Eternal Life.

As for your opening point, there are indeed things "natural" to the Divine Life, and so it can be legitimately be stated that "since the Lord's Supper (Eucharistic Meal) is the Communion of Christ and His Church and Bride, then it is precisely the sort of "profound mystery" that the Apostle Paul alludes to. The word "natural" is used in a variety of ways, not just to denote "corruption" in men.

Where is the Lord's Supper shown in Scripture to be the "profound mystery" of Christ and His Church? In the parables, metaphors, and teachings of Christ Himself. If you had committed yourself to humble repentance thirty years ago instead of letting yourself be seduced by demons (and possibly some of their human students) into trusting too much in your own, untrustworthy spiritual and intellectual powers (which is the sin of spiritual pride and pride of mind), then the Holy Spirit would most assuredly led you into all of the Truth, shown it to you in the Scripture, and you would've likely been blessed with tasting of the Kingdom of Heaven in the Lord's Supper, by the Holy Spirit's Power. Maybe you have been blessed in this way. But you don't have much to say about the Lord's Supper except that "its not really the body and blood of Christ", So I highly doubt it.

I don't say anything to be insulting. I'm not anymore worthy of blessing than you.

truefiction1 · Jan 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Also

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

"till he come". This shows that he did not come in the bread, or such words would make no sense. His second coming is future and every eye shall see him and the same Jesus that went up into heaven shall come back in like manner. But for some to say Jesus Christ "HAS COME" already in the bread, is confusion.

No confusion. Christ abides in us now. He is indeed in our midst, and also return at the end of the ages to judge all the living and the dead, when all will see Him.

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him." (John 14:23)

truefiction1 · Jan 31, 2018

We are saved by "Grace", through "Faith".

"Grace" is the Power of the Holy Spirit, or simply, the Holy Spirit. The aim of Faith is to acquire the Holy Spirit. Thus, "Faith" is the belief and work that brings "Grace", which saves.

Wordkeeper · Jan 31, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Yes, but the power of the Holy Spirit has always done additional works, besides illumining the Word of God, and continues to do additional works, beyond illumining the Word of God. The Word of God is not by any means silent about those additional works of the Holy Spirit.

There is a test that is applied after the Holy Spirit is given and that is based on belief and obedience.

The Holy Spirit will give the proof by giving water, so baptism is asking for water. and if you drink, out of your innermost being will flow streams of living water.

ONLY IF YOU DRINK.

Did Abraham drink? Yes he did and became a blessing to the world. God blessed Israel because of His promise to him.

Did Joshua drink? Yes he did and he became a blessing to Rahab.

Did Israel drink? No, and she was never fulfillled.

Did Jesus, the Second Son, drink? Yes the Israel of God drank and He became a blessing to the world?

How about you? Have you asked for water from Christ?

Hebrews 4:1-13
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

LoveofTruth · Feb 1, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Sure, but not like the sort of power that came upon them from on high at Pentecost. Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)

It wasn't exactly for that reason they could not cast out the many demons. Jesus said

Mark 9:29 King James Version
"And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 17:21 King James Version
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

truefiction1 · Feb 1, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
There is a test that is applied after the Holy Spirit is given and that is based on belief and obedience.

The Holy Spirit will give the proof by giving water, so baptism is asking for water. and if you drink, out of your innermost being will flow streams of living water.

ONLY IF YOU DRINK.

Did Abraham drink? Yes he did and became a blessing to the world. God blessed Israel because of His promise to him.

Did Joshua drink? Yes he did and he became a blessing to Rahab.

Did Israel drink? No, and she was never fulfillled.

Did Jesus, the Second Son, drink? Yes the Israel of God drank and He became a blessing to the world?

How about you? Have you asked for water from Christ?

Hebrews 4:1-13
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

The Holy, Living Tradition of the Church is the Life in Grace in which we, as members, live through faith with obedience to the commandments of Christ. So, I do drink of this water, which is "Grace", or simply "The Holy Spirit". I can drink of it through the "fountain" of my obedient faith. This "Grace", or "the Holy Spirit" is the Living Water springing up to Life Eternal.

truefiction1 · Feb 1, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
It wasn't exactly for that reason they could not cast out the many demons. Jesus said

Mark 9:29 King James Version
"And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 17:21 King James Version
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Prayer and fasting are works of obedient faith. They bring fruits of the Holy Spirit: Greater Faith being among these fruits! By the Power of the Holy Spirit (Grace) we can come into possession of such faith that can move mountains, cast out any demons, and even raise someone from the dead.

This Scripture you bring to the table of our conversation serves to perfectly illustrate the Truth behind what I have been saying about the Holy Spirit being the Grace that saves us.

LoveofTruth · Feb 1, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Prayer and fasting are works of obedient faith. They bring fruits of the Holy Spirit: Greater Faith being among these fruits! By the Power of the Holy Spirit (Grace) we can come into possession of such faith that can move mountains, cast out any demons, and even raise someone from the dead.

This Scripture you bring to the table of our conversation serves to perfectly illustrate the Truth behind what I have been saying about the Holy Spirit being the Grace that saves us.

Actually I was showing those verses to correct you when you said this. What you said was not correct.

"Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)"

LoveofTruth · Feb 1, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Prayer and fasting are works of obedient faith. They bring fruits of the Holy Spirit: Greater Faith being among these fruits! By the Power of the Holy Spirit (Grace) we can come into possession of such faith that can move mountains, cast out any demons, and even raise someone from the dead.

This Scripture you bring to the table of our conversation serves to perfectly illustrate the Truth behind what I have been saying about the Holy Spirit being the Grace that saves us.

you said this error as well

"Remember they could not cast out a certain sort of demon because they didn't have a powerful enough faith at the time? They didn't have any such limitations after Pentecost though, did they? They could even raise the dead, like Christ did. (Acts 9:36-41)"

but we also read that they did cast out devils

Luke 10:17
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Saved by Faith or grace?

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

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Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Christ builds His church from within us

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Christ builds His church from within us

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Matthew 4:4

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Fool

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Christ builds His church from within us

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Fool

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

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