All Israel is saved

2tim_215 said:

What is, "swift destruction" and what does it mean? I notice that you've inserted in parenthesis (your own words) that it is "eternal damnation in hell" Yet you also claim that everyone is going to be saved (including Satan) which would be a complete contradiction. You can't have it both ways (you sure try hard to do so). Going by your your doctrine, even if all those things you claim about me, false teacher, etc., who cares since according to you it doesn't matter since under your teachings, I'm going to be saved regardless.

I'm sure that under your doctrine that no matter how much evil I do in this life I'd be saved since there's no way I'd be able to come close to the evil and misery caused by Satan on this earth. So I guess that I (and everyone else for that matter) might as well go out and murder, steal, rape and pillage since God's going to find a way to bring us to heaven anyways according to your way of thinking.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go to heaven if it was a place like that with people who've caused so much suffering to others throughout world history and have no remorse about it and I seriously doubt most Christians would either. You and Satan can have that place all to yourselves, I want no part of it. It just doesn't make any sense for things tor workout the way you say they will.
2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
You and your "letter", how many times do I have to tell you that "the letter which killeth" refers to the Old Testament LAW", "letter" of the New Testament (which is the "written Word") is what today's Christians go by and is grace and is spiritually discerned (understood). Stop with the phony argument when someone disagrees with you and you claim they're carnal implying they have no spiritual understanding) and just going by what you refer to as "the letter" when they use scripture to prove you wrong. Yet, what do you do when you use scripture? Is it not the "letter" when you use it? Very hypocritical.

'The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis. When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not necessarily the intent of those who wrote the law."

You have to have the "letter" of the law, before you can determine what the "spirit" of it is otherwise what are you figuring actually out? Might as well through your Bible away since all it is is a bunch of "letters" according to you. You can just let your false spirit tell you what you need to know. Is that what you're doing? Of course I'm being somewhat facetious here but it's the written word (or the "letter") as you prefer to call it that allows to "test" the spirits to see if they really be of God and not one of Satan's tricksters.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Soars speaks like he is an authority in the Greek translation but then only recognizes that many Greek words are contextually dependent when it suits his need. He has an incomplete understanding of what he is talking about as I see in his post 657.

At 2 Thessalonians 2:10 the contrast is "perish" to "saved". And so it is easy to see that to "perish" means to not be "saved", and thus "perish" is clearly in the complete sense. For it is as good as saying they will never be saved.

Soars knows that most all Greek verbs are subject to various interpretations for basically that same reason as well as tense.

Trying to say this in a tasteful way.

Buzz_B said:

Soars speaks like he is an authority in the Greek translation but then only recognizes that many Greek words are contextually dependent when it suits his need. He has an incomplete understanding of what he is talking about as I see in his post 657.

At 2 Thessalonians 2:10 the contrast is "perish" to "saved". And so it is easy to see that to "perish" means to not be "saved", and thus "perish" is clearly in the complete sense. For it is as good as saying they will never be saved.

Soars knows that most all Greek verbs are subject to various interpretations for basically that same reason as well as tense.

Trying to say this in a tasteful way.

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No I do not. But when it comes to the spiritual word neither of you have a clue. You have not got out of kindergarten.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

No I do not. But when it comes to the spiritual word neither of you have a clue. You have not got out of kindergarten.

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I am not entirely without empathy for why you feel as you do concerning universal salvation. I fully see that there are many perversions which do, just as you say, paint a rather bleak picture for mankind. But even you have found a way around them by incorrect understanding rather than correcting the wrong by truth. And I do not mean that to insult you. After all, we all struggle with it to various degrees and that degree varies with us as we go along learning.

You, for example, believe that the natural man is completely incapable of turning toward God while I say that the natural man can choose to turn toward God but then does not know what to do to perfect himself in honor of God. I say it is that lack of understanding of how to be holy that is man's main problem and when that ignorance gets coupled with a defiant "I don't care" attitude, that makes a man wicked and locks him into his wickedness. The natural man can yet love what is right but for him it is a mixture like that tree of the knowledge of good and bad, for he does not understand the full course of what is right in God's view. He differs from the wicked in that he cares. For the wicked do not care about anything but their wicked way as it is founded on what they choose to love.

Paul shows us that natural man at Romans 7:15 who does care but because he is carnal he knows not how.

You may of may not see Romans 3:10 as speaking of literally all. I don't. The words are the lament of the psalmist at seeing wickedness all around him. And while David did sin we must remember that God plainly said David was a man after his own heart. Speaking of David replacing Saul as king:

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: Jehovah hath sought him a man after his own heart, and Jehovah hath appointed him to be prince over his people, because thou hast not kept that which Jehovah commanded thee.

A lament of David: Psalms 5:8-9 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psalms 36:1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Do you think God was speaking of Jeremiah when God said, "But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone. Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear Jehovah our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest." Jeremiah 5:23

There is a long line of faithful witnesses listed at Hebrews 11. These were not looked on that way. And even there in Genesis when the world became so evil that God saw, "that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, " God looked and saw Noah who found grace in his eyes. Genesis 6:9 says that
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

So can you see how subtly we pervert what Paul said at Romans 3:10-18? That was clearly not spoken of literally everyone. It is like the idea that every mans sins are like scarlet. That is another false assumption. Those words were being spoken of the nation of Israel and there were some faithful among Israel but the wicked were so many at times that what one saw as a whole concerning the nation was evil.

Righteous Abel was the first and then we read of Enoch whose righteous soul was vexed by all the ungodliness around him, and then Noah and a long line ever after even to our day. So it is not true that the natural man is an excuse. It is a logical fallacy.

Let me just add a thought about what I said in post 663.

Paul was a compassionate person who often spoke as if what others did was done by all. Not that all had done so but that Paul viewed the entire congregation including himself as one body and that is how he often spoke to them, as if literally one body. (One body of Christ.) For Paul understood that is any were ill they all suffered. If one mourned they all mourned for the sake of that one.

This is the holy spirit of what he speaks and it is getting missed due to failure to go back into the Old Testament and ponder the quotations of it he often presents. When we go back to the OT and ponder what he said against it, only then do we really begin to more fully understand what he meant. But we cannot take a preconceived idea with us when we do that, else that preconceived idea will blind us. We have to learn how to become open to really hearing. And it takes humility and practice.

Buzz_B said:

I am not entirely without empathy for why you feel as you do concerning universal salvation. I fully see that there are many perversions which do, just as you say, paint a rather bleak picture for mankind. But even you have found a way around them by incorrect understanding rather than correcting the wrong by truth. And I do not mean that to insult you. After all, we all struggle with it to various degrees and that degree varies with us as we go along learning.

You, for example, believe that the natural man is completely incapable of turning toward God while I say that the natural man can choose to turn toward God but then does not know what to do to perfect himself in honor of God. I say it is that lack of understanding of how to be holy that is man's main problem and when that ignorance gets coupled with a defiant "I don't care" attitude, that makes a man wicked and locks him into his wickedness. The natural man can yet love what is right but for him it is a mixture like that tree of the knowledge of good and bad, for he does not understand the full course of what is right in God's view. He differs from the wicked in that he cares. For the wicked do not care about anything but their wicked way as it is founded on what they choose to love.

Paul shows us that natural man at Romans 7:15 who does care but because he is carnal he knows not how.

You may of may not see Romans 3:10 as speaking of literally all. I don't. The words are the lament of the psalmist at seeing wickedness all around him. And while David did sin we must remember that God plainly said David was a man after his own heart. Speaking of David replacing Saul as king:

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: Jehovah hath sought him a man after his own heart, and Jehovah hath appointed him to be prince over his people, because thou hast not kept that which Jehovah commanded thee.

A lament of David: Psalms 5:8-9 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psalms 36:1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Do you think God was speaking of Jeremiah when God said, "But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone. Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear Jehovah our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest." Jeremiah 5:23

There is a long line of faithful witnesses listed at Hebrews 11. These were not looked on that way. And even there in Genesis when the world became so evil that God saw, "that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, " God looked and saw Noah who found grace in his eyes. Genesis 6:9 says that
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

So can you see how subtly we pervert what Paul said at Romans 3:10-18? That was clearly not spoken of literally everyone. It is like the idea that every mans sins are like scarlet. That is another false assumption. Those words were being spoken of the nation of Israel and there were some faithful among Israel but the wicked were so many at times that what one saw as a whole concerning the nation was evil.

Righteous Abel was the first and then we read of Enoch whose righteous soul was vexed by all the ungodliness around him, and then Noah and a long line ever after even to our day. So it is not true that the natural man is an excuse. It is a logical fallacy.

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Lets not get the OT confused with the NT when it comes to salavtion for salvation is a spiritual expereice not a matter of just believing in God as the natural believer did in th OT. But even Israel was a called out nation and or called out elect like David and Moses. If God does not call you you cannot come. Show me an example in the NT when Jesus or God's Spirit did not call someone first?

Do you even see the fact that the Adamic race is dead in trustpasses and sins? And if so what does that mean to you?

Soar Like and Eagle said:

Lets not get the OT confused with the NT when it comes to salavtion for salvation is a spiritual expereice not a matter of just believing in God as the natural believer did in th OT. But even Israel was a called out nation and or called out elect like David and Moses. If God does not call you you cannot come. Show me an example in the NT when Jesus or God's Spirit did not call someone first?

Do you even see the fact that the Adamic race is dead in trustpasses and sins? And if so what does that mean to you?

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That would not be possible in either the Old or the new Testament. Why?

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.." Romans 1:20

If you want an NT example which plainly shows How God calls us, it is Romans 2:4. God's goodness draws a man whose heart is not wicked.

You do remember, don't you, what Jesus told us about why some are not drawn to him? "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

Buzz_B said:

That would not be possible in either the Old or the new Testament. Why?

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.." Romans 1:20

If you want an NT example which plainly shows How God calls us, it is Romans 2:4. God's goodness draws a man whose heart is not wicked.

You do remember, don't you, what Jesus told us about why some are not drawn to him? "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

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Again. Salavtion comes by the blood of Jesus. If Jesus the word drawn means compel or drag. You know Greek and know this?

That is what I said God draws us. Do you understand what being dead in trustpasses and sin means?

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.." Romans 1:20

God has many ages to take care of all things.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

Again. Salavtion comes by the blood of Jesus. If Jesus the word drawn means compel or drag. You know Greek and know this?

That is what I said God draws us. Do you understand what being dead in trustpasses and sin means?

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.." Romans 1:20

God has many ages to take care of all things.

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Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There Paul is speaking of a judgment which was the result of sin. That judgement is based upon the fact that God will have nothing to do with that which is unholy. And being as life is dependent upon God to sustain it we had to be quickened from that judgment by an attributing of life which can only exist by righteousness. For now it is impossible for that life to exist by our own righteousness and thus God furnished us the righteousness of Christ which we can share for our righteous covering. That is why God only works with us "in Christ." It is Christ's righteousness and not our own.

That judgment has little to do with our ability to yet have intelligence with which to know that there is God. It does not prevent that intelligence and the Scripture we both quoted at Romans 1:20 proves that. For what is clearly seen would not be able to be seen by those who are as dead as you claim and thus they would have excuse. But Romans 1:20 says that because these things are clearly able to be seen by all since man began, that those who are not drawn to God are without excuse.

Your theory has been disintegrated. It went up in smoke.

Buzz_B said:

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There Paul is speaking of a judgment which was the result of sin. That judgement is based upon the fact that God will have nothing to do with that which is unholy. And being as life is dependent upon God to sustain it we had to be quickened from that judgment by an attributing of life which can only exist by righteousness. For now it is impossible for that life to exist by our own righteousness and thus God furnished us the righteousness of Christ which we can share for our righteous covering. That is why God only works with us "in Christ." It is Christ's righteousness and not our own.

That judgment has little to do with our ability to yet have intelligence with which to know that there is God. It does not prevent that intelligence and the Scripture we both quoted at Romans 1:20 proves that. For what is clearly seen would not be able to be seen by those who are as dead as you claim and thus they would have excuse. But Romans 1:20 says that because these things are clearly able to be seen by all since man began, that those who are not drawn to God are without excuse.

Your theory has been disintegrated. It went up in smoke.

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That is not what the verse says.. This is more spin and not worth discussing with you.

Buzz_B said:

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There Paul is speaking of a judgment which was the result of sin. That judgement is based upon the fact that God will have nothing to do with that which is unholy. And being as life is dependent upon God to sustain it we had to be quickened from that judgment by an attributing of life which can only exist by righteousness. For now it is impossible for that life to exist by our own righteousness and thus God furnished us the righteousness of Christ which we can share for our righteous covering. That is why God only works with us "in Christ." It is Christ's righteousness and not our own.

That judgment has little to do with our ability to yet have intelligence with which to know that there is God. It does not prevent that intelligence and the Scripture we both quoted at Romans 1:20 proves that. For what is clearly seen would not be able to be seen by those who are as dead as you claim and thus they would have excuse. But Romans 1:20 says that because these things are clearly able to be seen by all since man began, that those who are not drawn to God are without excuse.

Your theory has been disintegrated. It went up in smoke.

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What has gone up in smoke is your openess and bias.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

You never even attempted to analize this verse for what it says and you are the so called greek scholar.

Dead and trustpasses and sin is a serious issue but it does not fit how you see men who do not know God. I see this an issue with believer for believers are far from being totally alive to the realm of God for it is a proc of salvation.

Why are we living in a world where the vast majority of mankind are under a bondage where there is little change of salvation as you see it. Take China under Mao, Russia under Stalin, Islam and North Korea.

In North Korea the people are taught that Kim Jong-Un is a god and that his grandfather was raise by chrisitan missionaries was born under a special star and his mother was a virgin. It is so easy for you to try to erase Eph 2:1 quoting Romans 20 but it simply not true or that simple. For god has not calle dthe whole world now for like Adam we are all under a deep sleep spiritually. Was there any mention of God waking Adam up spiritually?

So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.

Romans 1:20: 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

These billions of people were never called and they live under a much greater bondage and the curse of sin and death that makes our world a heaven on earth compared to their daily lives.

This is the world God created and if God made it that way all the sin, death, curse and actions of man will never stop God from restosing all creation free from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God and has many ages to do this.

Romans 8: 20 For the creatures were subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected them, For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

What has gone up in smoke is your openess and bias.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

You never even attempted to analize this verse for what it says and you are the so called greek scholar.

Dead and trustpasses and sin is a serious issue but it does not fit how you see men who do not know God. I see this an issue with believer for believers are far from being totally alive to the realm of God for it is a proc of salvation.

Why are we living in a world where the vast majority of mankind are under a bondage where there is little change of salvation as you see it. Take China under Mao, Russia under Stalin, Islam and North Korea.

In North Korea the people are taught that Kim Jong-Un is a god and that his grandfather was raise by chrisitan missionaries was born under a special star and his mother was a virgin. It is so easy for you to try to erase Eph 2:1 quoting Romans 20 but it simply not true or that simple. For god has not calle dthe whole world now for like Adam we are all under a deep sleep spiritually. Was there any mention of God waking Adam up spiritually?

So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.

Romans 1:20: 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

These billions of people were never called and they live under a much greater bondage and the curse of sin and death that makes our world a heaven on earth compared to their daily lives.

This is the world God created and if God made it that way all the sin, death, curse and actions of man will never stop God from restosing all creation free from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God and has many ages to do this.

Romans 8: 20 For the creatures were subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected them, For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

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The fault for all of this is man's ignorance:

“As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance..” 1 Peter 1:14

And we have the testimony of Peter and Paul telling us that it is up to us to do something about that ignorance and its consequences:

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.” Acts 17:30

“Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves, because he who did suffer in the flesh hath done with sin, no more in the desires of men, but in the will of God, to live the rest of the time in the flesh; for sufficient to us is the past time of life the will of the nations to have wrought, having walked in lasciviousnesses, desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries, in which they think it strange -- your not running with them to the same excess of dissoluteness, speaking evil, who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge living and dead..”1 Peter 4:1-5 (YLT)

This is well established throughout the Scriptures that it is our fault and our responsibility. And it is clear that God will not absolve us of that responsibility.

One of the hugely blinding false ideas is that God is responsible for Israel's blindness. On that false premise much false doctrine gets built. God actually did nothing more than let them have their way and it was and is their own way which blinds them. But because God could have given them the miracles they demanded in such a powerful way that they would be helpless to any longer deny Christ, it can be said that God chose to let them be blind.

Jesus told us why we do not see when we do not see:

“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” Luke 6:25

Their thinking was what blinded them and because of that they could infect others with their ignorant thinking:

“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” Matthew 23:13

Why? Because, “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Proverbs 14:12

It is the same as it was with the Pharaoh of Egypt, of which we are told, “Thus saith Jehovah God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.” Exodus 10:3

Jehovah God does not see it as those who claim that he is responsible for blinding men:

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” Hosea 4:6

What Moses spoke to the people agrees:

“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.” Deuteronomy 32:4-5

Moses faulted the people's foolishness and consequent lack of wisdom:

“Do ye thus requite Jehovah, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? He hath made thee [a peoples], and established thee [as a nation].” Deuteronomy 32:6

There is so very much written on this subject in the Scriptures that, now that you know to look for it, you will find it inescapable to realize that man blinds his own self by his own arrogance and self-reliance. And that brings us back to what Jesus said:

“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” Luke 6:25

Man is too full of his own opinion to see much of anything else. And that is all that blindness is. Then when man loves what he believes more than he desires to know God's wisdom and when man loves the things he already pursues so that he is unwilling to consider that there is anything better, that man is wickedly blind.

Buzz_B said:

The fault for all of this is man's ignorance:

“As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance..” 1 Peter 1:14

And we have the testimony of Peter and Paul telling us that it is up to us to do something about that ignorance and its consequences:

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.” Acts 17:30

“Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves, because he who did suffer in the flesh hath done with sin, no more in the desires of men, but in the will of God, to live the rest of the time in the flesh; for sufficient to us is the past time of life the will of the nations to have wrought, having walked in lasciviousnesses, desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries, in which they think it strange -- your not running with them to the same excess of dissoluteness, speaking evil, who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge living and dead..”1 Peter 4:1-5 (YLT)

This is well established throughout the Scriptures that it is our fault and our responsibility. And it is clear that God will not absolve us of that responsibility.

One of the hugely blinding false ideas is that God is responsible for Israel's blindness. On that false premise much false doctrine gets built. God actually did nothing more than let them have their way and it was and is their own way which blinds them. But because God could have given them the miracles they demanded in such a powerful way that they would be helpless to any longer deny Christ, it can be said that God chose to let them be blind.

Jesus told us why we do not see when we do not see:

“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” Luke 6:25

Their thinking was what blinded them and because of that they could infect others with their ignorant thinking:

“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” Matthew 23:13

Why? Because, “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Proverbs 14:12

It is the same as it was with the Pharaoh of Egypt, of which we are told, “Thus saith Jehovah God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.” Exodus 10:3

Jehovah God does not see it as those he claim that he is responsible for blinding men:

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” Hosea 4:6

The song Moses spoke to the people agrees:

“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.” Deuteronomy 32:4-5

Moses faulted the people's foolishness and consequent lack of wisdom:

“Do ye thus requite Jehovah, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? He hath made thee [a peoples], and established thee [as a nation].” Deuteronomy 32:6

There is so very much written on this subject in the Scriptures that, now that you know to look for it, you will find it inescapable to realize that man blinds his own self by his own arrogance and self-reliance. And that brings us back to what Jesus said:

“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” Luke 6:25

Man is too full of his own opinion to see much of anything else. And that is all that blindness is. Then when man loves what he believes more than he desires to know God's wisdom and when man loves the things he already pursues so that he is unwilling to consider that there is anything better, that man is wickedly blind.

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What these verses are referring to is the religious of the day or God's chosen people not the loss. God is not calling all people now or the loss for has many ages to do so. Your above statement is either speaking of Israel or the scribes or scholars of Israel the Pharisees or Sadducees.

You said clear that God will not absolve us of that responsibility and this is true that is why God will have a spiritual fire to purge out the old man and has many ages to do this.

Here is an example God put a flaw in, who is Israel today?

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”’”
12 And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:


“ Ask now among the Gentiles,
Who has heard such things?
The virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing.
14 Will a man leave the snow water of Lebanon,
Which comes from the rock of the field?
Will the cold flowing waters be forsaken for strange waters?
15 “ Because My people have forgotten Me,
They have burned incense to worthless idols.
And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,
From the ancient paths,
To walk in pathways and not on a highway,
16 To make their land desolate and a perpetual hissing;
Everyone who passes by it will be astonished
And shake his head.
17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy;
I will show them[a] the back and not the face
In the day of their calamity.”
Jeremiah Persecuted

18 Then they said, “Come and let us devise plans against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come and let us attack him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.”
19 Give heed to me, O LORD,
And listen to the voice of those who contend with me!
20 Shall evil be repaid for good?
For they have dug a pit for my life.
Remember that I stood before You
To speak good for them,
To turn away Your wrath from them.
21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine,
And pour out their blood
By the force of the sword;
Let their wives become widows
And bereaved of their children.
Let their men be put to death,
Their young men be slain
By the sword in battle.
22 Let a cry be heard from their houses,
When You bring a troop suddenly upon them;
For they have dug a pit to take me,
And hidden snares for my feet.
23 Yet, LORD, You know all their counsel
Which is against me, to slay me.
Provide no atonement for their iniquity,
Nor blot out their sin from Your sight;
But let them be overthrown before You.
Deal thus with them
In the time of Your anger.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

What these verses are referring to is the religious of the day or God's chosen people not the loss. God is not calling all people now or the loss for has many ages to do so. Your above statement is either speaking of Israel or the scribes or scholars of Israel the Pharisees or Sadducees.

You said clear that God will not absolve us of that responsibility and this is true that is why God will have a spiritual fire to purge out the old man and has many ages to do this.

Here is an example God put a flaw in, who is Israel today?

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”’”
12 And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:


“ Ask now among the Gentiles,
Who has heard such things?
The virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing.
14 Will a man leave the snow water of Lebanon,
Which comes from the rock of the field?
Will the cold flowing waters be forsaken for strange waters?
15 “ Because My people have forgotten Me,
They have burned incense to worthless idols.
And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,
From the ancient paths,
To walk in pathways and not on a highway,
16 To make their land desolate and a perpetual hissing;
Everyone who passes by it will be astonished
And shake his head.
17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy;
I will show them[a] the back and not the face
In the day of their calamity.”
Jeremiah Persecuted

18 Then they said, “Come and let us devise plans against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come and let us attack him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.”
19 Give heed to me, O LORD,
And listen to the voice of those who contend with me!
20 Shall evil be repaid for good?
For they have dug a pit for my life.
Remember that I stood before You
To speak good for them,
To turn away Your wrath from them.
21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine,
And pour out their blood
By the force of the sword;
Let their wives become widows
And bereaved of their children.
Let their men be put to death,
Their young men be slain
By the sword in battle.
22 Let a cry be heard from their houses,
When You bring a troop suddenly upon them;
For they have dug a pit to take me,
And hidden snares for my feet.
23 Yet, LORD, You know all their counsel
Which is against me, to slay me.
Provide no atonement for their iniquity,
Nor blot out their sin from Your sight;
But let them be overthrown before You.
Deal thus with them
In the time of Your anger.

Click to expand...

No way could you have taken time to even really consider my post 671 for you replied too quickly to it.

And no way could you have taken adequate time to think about what you wanted to post, which explains why your conclusions are incomprehensible to the text you cited.

God is watching and the angels are taking notes on all we say and do, ya know.

It reveals our hearts.

Buzz_B said:

No way could you have taken time to even really consider my post 671 for you replied too quickly to it.

And no way could you have taken adequate time to think about what you wanted to post, which explains why your conclusions are incomprehensible to the text you cited.

God is watching and the angels are taking notes on all we say and do, ya know.

It reveals our hearts.

Click to expand...

I totally disagree. You did the very same thing with being dead in trustpasses and sins. I see God as sovereign over all and man as sinful but that is why the blood of Jesus is greater than the sins of Adam. You believe in a sin cursed world and that god is helpless to save all. I believe in a sin cursed world where it was God's plan to create sons not servants.

The big differene between you and I is you focus on Adam's sin. I focus on the blood of Jesus and God's grace for all mankind to include the ages to come.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

I totally disagree. You did the very same thing with being dead in trustpasses and sins. I see God as sovereign over all and man as sinful but that is why the blood of Jesus is greater than the sins of Adam. You believe in a sin cursed world and that god is helpless to save all. I believe in a sin cursed world where it was God's plan to create sons not servants.

Click to expand...

I believe moral sin begins as an external influence just as it did for Eve and that this is why it entered the world among men as Romans 5:12 says: "by one man sin entered into the world..."

Moral Sin is primarily the result of being taught imperfect knowledge and wisdom, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and bad pictures. The mix of both good and bad knowledge produces in us what is only an appearance of wisdom, a wisdom which fails by the bad bound up with it. And that imperfect teaching was dumped upon us by Adam's neglect of God as his teacher. It began a pattern which then infected all of man's teachings and thus affected all men.

This is why the rivers and springs are so important in the book of Revelation. Most of them represent mans sources of polluted knowledge which blinds man. Like for example, false religion.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

The big differene between you and I is you focus on Adam's sin. I focus on the blood of Jesus and God's grace for all mankind to include the ages to come.

Click to expand...

Yes, you focus on how you believe it works and do indeed believe that is your focus.

I, on the other hand, see that when our focus is through impure lenses we may actually be focused a bit left rather than right on target, even though we think we are seeing spot on.

I copied your post 672 to my desktop and when I get time will comment more completely on why a say you have not comprehended it properly.

Buzz_B said:

I believe moral sin begins as an external influence just as it did for Eve and that this is why it entered the world among men as Romans 5:12 says: "by one man sin entered into the world..."

Moral Sin is primarily the result of being taught imperfect knowledge and wisdom, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and bad pictures. The mix of both good and bad knowledge produces in us what is only an appearance of wisdom, a wisdom which fails by the bad bound up with it. And that imperfect teaching was dumped upon us by Adam's neglect of God as his teacher. It began a pattern which then infected all of man's teachings and thus affected all men.

This is why the rivers and springs are so important in the book of Revelation. Most of them represent mans sources of polluted knowledge which blinds man. Like for example, false religion.

Yes, you focus on how you believe it works and do indeed believe that is your focus.

I, on the other hand, see that when our focus is through impure lenses we may actually be focused a bit left rather than right on target, even though we think we are seeing spot on.

I copied your post 672 to my desktop and when I get time will comment more completely on why a say you have not comprehended it properly.

Click to expand...

I see the fall of all mankind was due to Adam's sin which was God's plan.

”Soars Like And Eagle – post 672 said:

What these verses are referring to is the religious of the day or God's chosen people not the loss. God is not calling all people now or the loss for has many ages to do so. Your above statement is either speaking of Israel or the scribes or scholars of Israel the Pharisees or Sadducees.

Click to expand...

At least you have proven that the blind leads the blind both fall into the pit, just as Jesus said. And that supports my point that moral sin is primarily the result of our teachings. But I am going to stay focused on my point, that we are not helpless to have to sin, as you claim.

”Soars Like And Eagle – post 672 said:

You said clear that God will not absolve us of that responsibility and this is true that is why God will have a spiritual fire to purge out the old man and has many ages to do this.

Click to expand...

Yes, even when God forgives he lets us suffer certain consequences for our own benefit. Do all benefit or will they ever? Did all benefit from being made to suffer the consequences of their actions throughout the history of Israel, or did only a remnant of them benefit? Is that not our example not to do what they did?

Psalms 95:8-11 “Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.” (compare: Hebrews 3:8; Hebrews 3:15; Hebrews 4:7)

”Soars Like And Eagle – post 672 said:

Here is an example God put a flaw in, who is Israel today?

Click to expand...

God rewarded them according to their way. And what we see is that God was justified to do so. God merely sped up their reaping of what they themselves sowed by their refusal to listen to Him. And in so doing He did exactly what He said He would do if they kept on not listening to Him.

Leviticus 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Now see that in what you posted:

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”’”
12 And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:


“ Ask now among the Gentiles,
Who has heard such things?
The virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing.
14 Will a man leave the snow water of Lebanon,
Which comes from the rock of the field?
Will the cold flowing waters be forsaken for strange waters?
15 “ Because My people have forgotten Me,
They have burned incense to worthless idols.
And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,
From the ancient paths,
To walk in pathways and not on a highway,
16 To make their land desolate and a perpetual hissing;
Everyone who passes by it will be astonished
And shake his head.
17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy;
I will show them[a] the back and not the face
In the day of their calamity.”
Jeremiah Persecuted

18 Then they said, “Come and let us devise plans against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come and let us attack him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.”
19 Give heed to me, O LORD,
And listen to the voice of those who contend with me!
20 Shall evil be repaid for good?
For they have dug a pit for my life.
Remember that I stood before You
To speak good for them,
To turn away Your wrath from them.
21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine,
And pour out their blood
By the force of the sword;
Let their wives become widows
And bereaved of their children.
Let their men be put to death,
Their young men be slain
By the sword in battle.
22 Let a cry be heard from their houses,
When You bring a troop suddenly upon them;
For they have dug a pit to take me,
And hidden snares for my feet.
23 Yet, LORD, You know all their counsel
Which is against me, to slay me.
Provide no atonement for their iniquity,
Nor blot out their sin from Your sight;
But let them be overthrown before You.
Deal thus with them
In the time of Your anger.

God is giving us every opportunity NOW. If we refuse him he made us and he can and will take us out of the realm of life, permanently.

Go on the street anywhere and find someone who does not know Jesus as savior and start preaching to them and them come back and tell me that person is not dead in truspasses and sins and all things spiritual are foolishness to his carnal brain. This is carnal man's nature and it is the result of the fall and he did not choose this life but was born into a body a slave to the death nature/carnal nature/Adamic nature. He cannot not choose God it takes God's grace not carnal man who has no freewill to save himself.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

I see the fall of all mankind was due to Adam's sin which was God's plan.

Click to expand...

You see what you believe. There is nothing amazing about that.

But what you teach has no saving power. It is but wine for the dying that they may drink and get drunk enough to ignore their fate as warned of God.