signs of a true apostle

Daniel Marsh · Jan 31, 2018

lamb7 said:
My one questionwpuld be unless I misunderstood the reply. How would one be saved without hearing the gospel? Or would the miracle be part of it thus verifying the gospel?

There are testimonies today of Jesus appearing to Muslims, who gave their lives to Jesus.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 31, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
All you are doing is trying to justify the lack Bible type miracles in your own Christian walk. After all if they really happen, and since you are a real Christian then they would be happening for you to. I'm sorry, that not the way things work.
Had you had any interest whatsoever in finding evidence for miracles you would have read my words a little more carefully and looked into it with a little bit of diligence and spiritual maturity. I did not say Pat Robertson preforms miracles. I wouldn't use his words of knowledge real or not to tell you about miracles. What I said was the 700 club has been putting out high quality videos, as in high quality TV reenactments of Christians who have had miracles happen in their lives for many decades now. Which includes doctor testimonies. Robertson's organization is not some sectarian entity like you are exhibiting. Perhaps only 1 in 5-10 of these video's have anything to do with his organization. They are TV quality video's of miracles that happen to Christians all over the world that the 700 club gets wind of and seeks out the people so that their miracle may be documented and put to use to win others to Christ and get God the glory. The people in these video's may be Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, independent, Catholic of any other Orthodox Christian or orthodox Christian testimonial of people getting saved.
There are others that make video's like these but there is nothing out there that does them like the 700 club. Highly professional. Nor is there anyone out there who has made these for decades.
So you lose. You lose the blessing. You lose the testimony.

You have no idea the miracles God has used me for. But, cold reading and playing the odds by a man in his so-called word of knowledge does matter because it is based on deception, not the real word of knowledge.

What examples of word of knowledge can you find in scripture?

Off the top of my head, John 4
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.

It is used to my knowledge in scripture to expose sin, not who needs healing. Please, provide examples from scripture of any use of the word of knowledge that you know of.

Thanks,
Daniel

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
Since none of us were there it is all conjecture.

weakness is consistent with a health problem. We are not as I know from Scripture to have that level of devotion for a person. Can you give over examples of that level of devotion for others in the New Testament?

"Paul was short of stature; the Pseudo-Chrysostom calls him "the man of three cubits" (anthropos tripechys); he was broad-shouldered, somewhat bald, with slightly aquiline nose, closely-knit eyebrows, thick, greyish beard, fair complexion, and a pleasing and affable manner. He was afflicted with a malady which is difficult to diagnose (cf. Menzies, "St. Paul's Infirmity" in the "Expository Times", July and Sept., 1904), but despite this painful and humiliating infirmity (2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Galatians 4:13-14) and although his bearing was not impressive (2 Corinthians 10:10), Paul must undoubtedly have been possessed of great physical strength to have sustained so long such superhuman labours (2 Corinthians 11:23-29). Pseudo-Chrysostom, "In princip. apostol. Petrum et Paulum" (in P.G., LIX, 494-95), considers that he died at the age of sixty-eight after having served the Lord for thirty-five years."(from CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Paul )

As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me (Gal 4:13-15).

The context is more consistent with an illness.

Saul got up from the ground,
but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing;
so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus.
For three days he was unable to see, and he neither ate nor drank (Acts 9:8-10).

From a sermon of one of the Church Fathers, that says the thorn was a person.

"
2 Corinthians 12:7
And that I should not be exalted overmuch, through the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet me.

What do you say? He that counted not the kingdom to be any thing; no, nor yet hell in respect of his longing after Christ; did he deem honor from the many to be any thing, so as both to be lifted up and to need that curb continually? For he did not say, 'that he might buffet me,' but that he may buffet me. Yet who is there would say this? What then is the meaning of what is said? When we have explained what is meant at all by the thorn, and who is this messenger of Satan, then will we declare this also. There are some then who have said that he means a kind of pain in the head which was inflicted of the devil; but God forbid! For the body of Paul never could have been given over to the hands of the devil, seeing that the devil himself submitted to the same Paul at his mere bidding; and he set him laws and bounds, when he delivered over the fornicator for the destruction of the flesh, and he dared not to transgress them. What then is the meaning of what is said? An adversary is called, in the Hebrew, Satan; and in the third Book of Kings the Scripture has so termed such as were adversaries; and speaking of Solomon, says, 'In his days there was no Satan,' that is, no adversary, enemy, or opponent. 1 Kings 5:4 What he says then is this: God would not permit the Preaching to progress, in order to check our high thoughts; but permitted the adversaries to set upon us. For this indeed was enough to pluck down his high thoughts; not so that, pains in the head. And so by the messenger of Satan, he means Alexander the coppersmith, the party of Hymenæus and Philetus, all the adversaries of the word; those who contended with and fought against him, those that cast him into a prison, those that beat him, that led him away to death ; for they did Satan's business. As then he calls those Jews children of the devil, who were imitating his deeds, so also he calls a messenger of Satan every one that opposes. He says therefore, There was given to me a thorn to buffet me; not as if God puts arms into such men's hands, God forbid! not that He does chastise or punish, but for the time allows and permits them."CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 26 on Second Corinthians (Chrysostom)

The Bible does say thorn in the flesh???? I do not remember.

The point is that the majority of healing under the ministry of Peter and Paul were of unbelievers, who, and the rest of the community around them turned to Christ. It was in the context of winning pagans for Christ that the "extraordinary miracles" that Paul did among them. There are no accounts of Christians having healing meetings just to get Christians healed. Also, the demons that were cast out were not in the Christian community but also among the pagans. This is reflected in the modern Third World where the bulk of healing and deliverance occurs among the unsaved who come to hear the gospel preached.

Modern healing crusades conducted by "apostles" are usually attended by 90% Christians who are there to get their spiritual "fix". They are inward looking hallelujah hootenannies run for self indulgent church members who have no real passion for the lost souls in their communities. Also, many of these prominent preachers have real shortcomings in personal holiness which the people do not see, but God sees, and there has been a good number of scandals where God has exposed their sin so that the body of Christ is not deceived and further damaged by these showmen. I have viewed Youtube where a street evangelist praying for unbelievers on city streets has achieved remarkable results, and that street evangelist was just an ordinary guy whose name was not mentioned at all. No great billboards with his large photos on them. No white suit waving at groups of people who fall over backwards as a result. No teaching that we are little gods. Many of the showmen who make a big display of themselves in crusades and on TV are arrogant and unteachable men who think they have something better than the common herd. They become wealthy on the mum and dad donations which many mums and dads can ill afford, but they give thinking they are giving to the work of the Lord, while their own families are deprived of things they need. What is hidden from them is the bulk of their donations are going to pay for the large mansions, business class airfares, private jets, expensive motor cars, luxury lifestyle of the showmen who are preaching a watered down gospel full of gimmicks and grandiose claims of miracles and healing that doesn't seem to happen for most who attend.

If Paul suffered sickness, that would not have been a hindrance to his ministry. He is a believer, and doesn't need to be healed to show him God's power to save his own soul. If a Christian gets sick and dies, they go to be with the Lord. If an unbeliever gets sick and dies, they go to a Christless eternity, so who really needs to be healed and saved? It is not hypocritical for Paul to heal the sick while being sick himself, because it is not Paul who is doing the healing. Jesus is doing the healing through Paul's ministry. It is like the story of the preacher who heard the story of a healing by Smith Wigglesworth where a person was instantly healed of an incurable condition before everyone. He said to the Lord, "I couldn't do that!" The Lord replied, "Neither could he." There's a lesson in that.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
You have no idea the miracles God has used me for. But, cold reading and playing the odds by a man in his so-called word of knowledge does matter because it is based on deception, not the real word of knowledge.

What examples of word of knowledge can you find in scripture?

Off the top of my head, John 4
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.

It is used to my knowledge in scripture to expose sin, not who needs healing. Please, provide examples from scripture of any use of the word of knowledge that you know of.

Thanks,
Daniel

I know one - where Nathan confronted David over his murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba.

I am having a re-think about the Word of Knowledge. There is sufficient indication in Scripture that it can be used to reveal sin in a person, because God is a holy God and He will expose willful sin in a believer to preserve the honour of His name. But the revealing must be done privately first, according to how we should correct our brothers and sisters in Christ. We go to them first, and if they will not listen, then we take another person along, and if they won't listen then, it then is made public in the church and the person is put out of the fellowship until he repents. But when he does repent, he is totally restored.

Peter had a word of knowledge about Simon the sorcerer who offered money for the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul had a word of knowledge about the official who tried to hinder Paul's sharing of the gospel to the Roman governor and the official went blind. Paul also had a word of knowledge that although they would lose the ship when it hit a large storm off Malta, no one would lose their lives.

The reason why some of these showmen TV evangelists have been exposed to public scandal was that they did not listen to someone coming to them with a word of knowledge about their hidden sin. They were too arrogant to subject themselves to the word of a "lesser mortal" and so they suffered the consequences.

So why is it that Paul speaking about the gift of prophecy in the church, that when all prophesy, an unbeliever may enter, fall on his face (not his back, mind you!) and acknowledge that God is in them in reality. Would it not be that the prophetic words contained words of knowledge about the state of their hearts and their hidden sins?

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
It seems to me that as the apostles began to disappear from the earthly scene, miraculous powers among Christians began to fade away with them as recorded in I Cor. 13:8-10.

However, as I believe you are saying and I agree, in their place was left something equally effective: the New Testament. The books constituting the New Testament were penned by eight inspired men, especially Paul. All but John's writings are believed by conservative scholars to have been written 50-70 A.D. prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. John's books are believed to have been written in the last decade of the First Century (95-98 A.D.). The New Testament serves as an infallible, all-sufficient, incorruptible, indestructible guide for the Christian (II Tim. 3:16,17; I Pet. 1:23-25).

That being the case then there is NO reason for Apostles or Prophets today.

If the New Testament was "the perfect" that was to come, how come when you quote the New Testament to unbelievers, that they don't get convicted of their sin through the power of the words, fall on their faces and turn to Christ on the spot?

And if the Old Testament Scriptures were the perfect word of God in Paul's time, why is it that he needed "extraordinary miracles" to win whole pagan communities over to Christ? All he had to do was to read the Torah to them, didn't he, in the same way that all you have to do is read the New Testament to unbelievers and whole communities of them will turn to Christ, if the New Testament has replaced the "extraordinary miracles" that the Holy Spirit did through Paul?

Major1 · Jan 31, 2018

Oscarr said:
If the New Testament was "the perfect" that was to come, how come when you quote the New Testament to unbelievers, that they don't get convicted of their sin through the power of the words, fall on their faces and turn to Christ on the spot?

And if the Old Testament Scriptures were the perfect word of God in Paul's time, why is it that he needed "extraordinary miracles" to win whole pagan communities over to Christ? All he had to do was to read the Torah to them, didn't he, in the same way that all you have to do is read the New Testament to unbelievers and whole communities of them will turn to Christ, if the New Testament has replaced the "extraordinary miracles" that the Holy Spirit did through Paul?

Oscar, the thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians is the heart of Paul’s three-chapter-long discourse on spiritual gifts and the Dispensation of Grace. The Corinthians were spiritually immature (1 Corinthians 3:1-2), and they were ignorant of spiritual gifts and they were misusing and abusing them (1 Corinthians 12:1–14:40). Rather than focusing on sound doctrine, the Corinthians, like today’s charismatics, were too engaged in emotional experiences—especially the gift of tongues (refer to the 40 verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 14).

Paul wrote chapters 12-14 to show them that there Christian lives were not functioning properly, and if they did not correct their thinking, when the spiritual gifts would fall away, their Christian lives would fall apart!

Ephesians 3:1-4 explains:......
“[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)….”

We learn the knowledge God revealed first to Paul, by reading his epistles of Romans through Philemon.

“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

Verses 9 and 10 again: “[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once Paul wrote the epistle of 2 Timothy, the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows.

Major1 · Jan 31, 2018

Oscarr said:
I know one - where Nathan confronted David over his murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba.

I am having a re-think about the Word of Knowledge. There is sufficient indication in Scripture that it can be used to reveal sin in a person, because God is a holy God and He will expose willful sin in a believer to preserve the honour of His name. But the revealing must be done privately first, according to how we should correct our brothers and sisters in Christ. We go to them first, and if they will not listen, then we take another person along, and if they won't listen then, it then is made public in the church and the person is put out of the fellowship until he repents. But when he does repent, he is totally restored.

Peter had a word of knowledge about Simon the sorcerer who offered money for the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul had a word of knowledge about the official who tried to hinder Paul's sharing of the gospel to the Roman governor and the official went blind. Paul also had a word of knowledge that although they would lose the ship when it hit a large storm off Malta, no one would lose their lives.

The reason why some of these showmen TV evangelists have been exposed to public scandal was that they did not listen to someone coming to them with a word of knowledge about their hidden sin. They were too arrogant to subject themselves to the word of a "lesser mortal" and so they suffered the consequences.

So why is it that Paul speaking about the gift of prophecy in the church, that when all prophesy, an unbeliever may enter, fall on his face (not his back, mind you!) and acknowledge that God is in them in reality. Would it not be that the prophetic words contained words of knowledge about the state of their hearts and their hidden sins?

1 Cor. 13:9..........
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

lamb7 · Jan 31, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
There are testimonies today of Jesus appearing to Muslims, who gave their lives to Jesus.

I heard of that and I think that is so awesome. I believe that. I remember when I first heard about that and was amazed! Glad He is reaching to them.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
Oscar, I believe with all my being and I in fact KNOW that God heals people. HE does it when He wants to and how He wants to.

What I am saying is that NO Man or Woman has that ability today as there are NO Apostles today. The Apostles are the ones to whom Jesus gave the SIGN gifts too.

Mark 16:14............
"TO THE ELEVEN Jesus said.................".

Today, it is clear that very unscrupulous and devious people have determined to make MONEY from those who are easily manipulated. They are elderly, sick, in pain and when anyone comes along who knows how to manipulate their feelings and emotions, they do just that.

Frankly Oscar, my question is based in REALITY and it is the same I have asked for years now. If those who claim to have miraculous healing powers are for real, why don’t we see cameras rolling and recording these events? And doctor’s backing them up as they empty the hospitals and cancer wards around the nation?

Then why don’t’ they go into Africa and cure all those who have AIDS? Some will claim that if a sick person’s faith is not strong enough then they will not be healed, but that is not what is required according to the Bible records of these healings. The Bible is full of examples where a healing was done when NO faith at all was required.

You are correct, but maybe not for the reasons you think.

The reason why we don't have an apostolic ministry today is that it was part of an Early Church were members were totally committed to Christ, had repented of all willful sin and had a very high standard of holiness, to such an extent that two people dropped dead just because they lied about how much money they were giving to the Apostles, and that many in the community were afraid to join the Church because of the awesome power of God that was being displayed by it. It is a church where members prophesied and unbelievers coming had the secrets of their hearts exposed and they fell on the faces (not on their backs!) confessing that God is really among them. Tell me of any church you know of that is like that!

We have churches where people speak in tongues, dance, fall on their backs, listen to ear tickling sermons from showmen preachers, and yet retain their hidden sinful habit patterns, behave as anyone in the world during the week until they come and get their next Sunday "fix". These are churches where elders have been exposed as having homosexual encounters and visiting prostitutes. Members of the Early Church hated sin so much that they fought against it at every corner, but today's churches, even the largest Charismatic ones, either tolerate or are indifferent to sin, and are able to willfully sin and expecting to go to God for forgiveness afterward. It was the preacher in the white suit who said that he was so angry with a guy that he could go a punch him and then ask the Holy Spirit to forgive him afterward. Members of the Early Church would not have such an insulting attitude toward God, and would be terrified at the very prospect of anything like that.

Although there is a great need for a powerful apostolic ministry in the world today, because of the great increase of homosexuality, prostitution, greed, murders, robberies, genocide, dishonest politics, police brutality, guilty criminals being acquitted on technicalities and innocent people convicted crimes they didn't commit, corrupt judges who favour the rich over the poor, and so on, the modern churches are not of the required standards of holiness and commitment to Christ to have apostolic ministries because God is not going to dishonour His own Name by supporting groups of people who do not set the example to the world that He requires of them.

Major1 · Jan 31, 2018

Oscarr said:
You are correct, but maybe not for the reasons you think.

The reason why we don't have an apostolic ministry today is that it was part of an Early Church were members were totally committed to Christ, had repented of all willful sin and had a very high standard of holiness, to such an extent that two people dropped dead just because they lied about how much money they were giving to the Apostles, and that many in the community were afraid to join the Church because of the awesome power of God that was being displayed by it. It is a church where members prophesied and unbelievers coming had the secrets of their hearts exposed and they fell on the faces (not on their backs!) confessing that God is really among them. Tell me of any church you know of that is like that!

We have churches where people speak in tongues, dance, fall on their backs, listen to ear tickling sermons from showmen preachers, and yet retain their hidden sinful habit patterns, behave as anyone in the world during the week until they come and get their next Sunday "fix". These are churches where elders have been exposed as having homosexual encounters and visiting prostitutes. Members of the Early Church hated sin so much that they fought against it at every corner, but today's churches, even the largest Charismatic ones, either tolerate or are indifferent to sin, and are able to willfully sin and expecting to go to God for forgiveness afterward. It was the preacher in the white suit who said that he was so angry with a guy that he could go a punch him and then ask the Holy Spirit to forgive him afterward. Members of the Early Church would not have such an insulting attitude toward God, and would be terrified at the very prospect of anything like that.

Although there is a great need for a powerful apostolic ministry in the world today, because of the great increase of homosexuality, prostitution, greed, murders, robberies, genocide, dishonest politics, police brutality, guilty criminals being acquitted on technicalities and innocent people convicted crimes they didn't commit, corrupt judges who favour the rich over the poor, and so on, the modern churches are not of the required standards of holiness and commitment to Christ to have apostolic ministries because God is not going to dishonour His own Name by supporting groups of people who do not set the example to the world that He requires of them.

If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.

We can not worry about what we do not have today, bu we can act upon what we do have.

We do not have Apostles today but we do have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

What is need IMO is men who will put their hand to the plow and do the work.
Action speek louder than words.

Major1 · Jan 31, 2018

lamb7 said:
I heard of that and I think that is so awesome. I believe that. I remember when I first heard about that and was amazed! Glad He is reaching to them.

I do not know who anyone saw, but I do know that they did not see the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have read the Bible and it says that the next time Jesus is seen will be a the battle of Armageddon where He comes riding a great white horse.

lamb7 · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
I do not know who anyone saw, but I do know that they did not see the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have read the Bible and it says that the next time Jesus is seen will be a the battle of Armageddon where He comes riding a great white horse.

Oh wow yes I forgot this verse. I'm assuming. The good thing is the vision led them to the gospel of Christ. I only heard briefly I didn't really look into at the time.

lamb7 · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
We do not have Apostles today but we do have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worldsWho being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Paul was speaking yo the Hebrews and Prophets were a big part of the Word of God. Seems the prophets were all Jewish too?

We now have the Word and it is closed. Jesus was the Word made flesh...

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
Oscar, the thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians is the heart of Paul’s three-chapter-long discourse on spiritual gifts and the Dispensation of Grace. The Corinthians were spiritually immature (1 Corinthians 3:1-2), and they were ignorant of spiritual gifts and they were misusing and abusing them (1 Corinthians 12:1–14:40). Rather than focusing on sound doctrine, the Corinthians, like today’s charismatics, were too engaged in emotional experiences—especially the gift of tongues (refer to the 40 verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 14).

Paul wrote chapters 12-14 to show them that there Christian lives were not functioning properly, and if they did not correct their thinking, when the spiritual gifts would fall away, their Christian lives would fall apart!

Ephesians 3:1-4 explains:......
“[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)….”

We learn the knowledge God revealed first to Paul, by reading his epistles of Romans through Philemon.

“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

Verses 9 and 10 again: “[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once Paul wrote the epistle of 2 Timothy, the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows.

My point is that if the canon of the New Testament replaces the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, which is taught widely by teachers like John MacArthur and others, then reading the New Testament would perform the same function as the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So, to get a person healed, all one has to do is to read the bits about healing from the New Testament and howzthat! The person is healed on the spot! If prophecies caused unbelievers coming into the Early Church to fall on their faces confessing that God is with them in reality, so reading the New Testament to unbelievers should perform the same function, seeing that New Testament has replaced the prophetic? I know that I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a point there nevertheless.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 31, 2018

Major1 said:
If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.

We can not worry about what we do not have today, bu we can act upon what we do have.

We do not have Apostles today but we do have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

What is need IMO is men who will put their hand to the plow and do the work.
Action speek louder than words.

Thank you for sharing the work that you have done in the orphanages. This is right in line with what James taught about true religion involves looking after orphans and widows, along with other things.

Why I have a greater respect for you is that I have never left New Zealand, and have lived a normal life as teacher and government employee. I did 10 years as a court victim advisor and this work involved working with domestic violence victims. But you have done things that I have never done, and I wouldn't have the courage to travel to Africa to do those things. So you are a better example of selfless service for the Lord than I am.

Major1 · Feb 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
Thank you for sharing the work that you have done in the orphanages. This is right in line with what James taught about true religion involves looking after orphans and widows, along with other things.

Why I have a greater respect for you is that I have never left New Zealand, and have lived a normal life as teacher and government employee. I did 10 years as a court victim advisor and this work involved working with domestic violence victims. But you have done things that I have never done, and I wouldn't have the courage to travel to Africa to do those things. So you are a better example of selfless service for the Lord than I am.

I only shared those things with you Oscar so that you would know that there are a lot of people doing work for the Lord who do not advertise or brag or ask for a love offering and so on that we all see on religious TV. We do it because ACTION speaks louder than words.

Major1 · Feb 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
My point is that if the canon of the New Testament replaces the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, which is taught widely by teachers like John MacArthur and others, then reading the New Testament would perform the same function as the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So, to get a person healed, all one has to do is to read the bits about healing from the New Testament and howzthat! The person is healed on the spot! If prophecies caused unbelievers coming into the Early Church to fall on their faces confessing that God is with them in reality, so reading the New Testament to unbelievers should perform the same function, seeing that New Testament has replaced the prophetic? I know that I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a point there nevertheless.

I understand what you are saying, however I do not agree with your premise.

The "Sign Gifts" were given by Jesus to the Apostles in order to "Validate" what they were doing and teaching and preaching. I am of course referring to miracles like speaking in tongues, visions, healing, raising the dead, and prophesying.

One thing that is often overlooked in discussions about signs and miracles is the timing and placement of them in the Scriptures. Contrary to popular belief, people in Bible times did not see miracles all the time. In fact, the miracles of the Bible are generally grouped around special events in God's dealing with mankind.

1). Israel's deliverance from Egypt and entrance into the Promised Land were accompanied by many miracles, but the miracles faded away soon afterward.

2). During the late kingdom years, when God was about to place the people in exile, He allowed some of His prophets to do miracles.

3). When Jesus came to live among us, He did miracles, and in the early ministry of the apostles, they did miracles, but outside of those times, we see very few miracles or signs in the Bible. The vast majority of people who lived in Bible times never saw signs and wonders with their own eyes. They had to live by faith in what God had already revealed to them.

4). In the early church, the signs and wonders were primarily centered on the first presentation of the gospel among various people groups. On the day of Pentecost, we read that there were in Acts 2:5...........
“Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven” gathered in Jerusalem.

It was to these Jews, who had been raised in other lands and spoke those foreign languages (v. 6-11), that the sign of tongues was first given. They acknowledged that they were hearing in their native tongues about the wonderful works of God, and Peter told them that the only appropriate response was to repent of their sins (v. 38). When the gospel was first presented among the Samaritans, Philip did signs and wonders in Acts 8:13.

Again, when Peter was sent to Cornelius, a Gentile, God gave a miraculous sign to confirm His work.

Acts 10:45-46........
“And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God”.

When Peter was questioned by the other apostles, he gave this as evidence of God's leading, and the others “glorified God, saying in Acts 11:18........
‘Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life’”.

In every instance, the sign gifts were a confirmation of God's message and messenger, in order that people might hear and believe. Once the message was confirmed, the signs faded away. We typically don't need those signs to be repeated in our lives, but we do need to receive the same gospel message.

Major1 · Feb 1, 2018

lamb7 said:
Oh wow yes I forgot this verse. I'm assuming. The good thing is the vision led them to the gospel of Christ. I only heard briefly I didn't really look into at the time.

Visions????

We are not saved by visions or dreams or thoughts.

Remember that the "Prince of the power of the air" is Satan and he will and has and can do visions, dreams and miracles to get our eyes onto those things and off of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:17........
"Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Major1 · Feb 1, 2018

lamb7 said:
Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worldsWho being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Paul was speaking yo the Hebrews and Prophets were a big part of the Word of God. Seems the prophets were all Jewish too?

We now have the Word and it is closed. Jesus was the Word made flesh...

Correct and I agree with you.

lamb7 · Feb 1, 2018

Major1 said:
Visions????

We are not saved by visions or dreams or thoughts.

Remember that the "Prince of the power of the air" is Satan and he will and has and can do visions, dreams and miracles to get our eyes onto those things and off of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:17........
"Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Thank you for that sobering reminder! I think that is why I was asking if they heard the gospel with the visions post earlier I was confused because I remember Romans 10:17 thank you for that!

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