signs of a true apostle

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hmm good question! I was thinking about this... it seemed the signs and wonders were mainly in Israel or at least started there, and then the Jews went to the Samaritans and the other Gentile nations if I am remembering that right. (Acts?)

Jews required the signs. All the Prophets were Jewish Men, and the 144K will be Jewish Men during the Trib. Seems the Trib is focused again on Israel God trying to win back the remement as He promised. ( I am aware women can prophesy but that word is loaded in meaning)

Oh and the 2 witnesses will be Jewish too I think.. I am seeing a theme, Jews and Israel. They need the signs since they are blind. We believers are already believe on Christ as savior but the Jews need signs to believe on Him. Jews require a sign. Ever since Moses really.

I feel IMHO from seeing the pattern in scripture, it started with the Jews and will end with them.

Sorry if my reply is kinda random thoughts mixed into a few sentences!

1 Corinthians 1:22
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
 
  • Agree
Reactions: lamb7
Upvote 0

lamb7

Little Lamb
Jul 19, 2017
336
304
USA
✟36,619.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Why should I document other people’s claims? You can find documented claims. I think you sound like the kind of person that would reject them though. Try the 700 club. They have been making the highest quality videos for decades of people’s testimonies that include doctors testimonies. Why the hunt to disprove them? Like I said miracles, whether works of power or answers to simple prayer have nothing to do with Apostleship. If that is what you are trying to disprove. People’s claims of Apostleship. Heck I agree with you on that. Bunch of bogus crap.

Decades ago, people I knew who were in what many Christians consider to be in cults like Christian Science and Mind Science who were interviewed on that station. Also, people who appeared on that show that later was investigated and found the healings did not happen. Someone, wrote a book called The Faith Healers. I do not have Cable Tv, nor speakers on my computer. I also knew Christians who went on those shows that claimed to be healed who were not.
"
A former employee describes Robertson’s "Word of Knowledge” performance in James Randi’s book, “The Faith Healers:” "There was nothing "mystical" to understand; it was simply "statistical". Robertson's little faith-healing procedure is a charade -- he simply "calls out" an illness and predicts its cure, and with millions of viewers the statistical probabilities are that someone will have the disease named and that they will naturally recover. People put their faith in the belief that God speaks to Pat. (James Randi, The Faith Healers, 1989, p.201)

While I don't agree with James Randi's cynicism he has spoken for the numerous people that watch and can see through the antics that are presented as genuine Christianity and the power of God.

“(Gerry) Straub relates a non-miracle he witnessed while still a believer in the ministry he worked for. He describes Robertson, at the close of a "700 Club" videotaping, shaking hands with members of the studio audience: "He stopped when he reached a man sitting in a wheelchair ... Pat ... laid hands on him as everyone prayed for healing ... at Pat's urging the man stood up. The people cheered as the man took a couple of very shaky, small steps. While everyone applauded God, I feared the man might fall. The next day we showed the nation the miracle (on the "700 Club" broadcast). I simply wanted to know if the old man in the wheelchair was permanently healed by God or if he temporarily thought that he was healed. A few weeks later I had an assistant track down the man's family in order to see if the cure had lasted. He had died 10 days after his visit to [the Christian Broadcasting Network]. We reported his "healing" but not his death. (James Randi, The Faith Healers, 1989, p.201)

...


In his book Beyond Reason as "an effort to teach some of the basic principles that enable you to understand and experience the flow of God's energy... and to enter the world of miracles . . . teaches that miracles work according to laws which "are as valid for our lives as the laws of thermodynamics or the law of gravity." Robertson says, "The metaphysical principles of the kingdom [of God], taken by themselves, can produce fantastic temporal benefits"-and these benefits, because they follow scientific laws, can be enjoyed by atheists as well as by Christians.”

This sounds more like Christian Science than Bible teaching. Jesus did not teach a method or law. This is what happens to those who become unbalanced in their Bible reading and focus on one area. This is not teaching Christian doctrine. This becomes like a teaching of a force which one can use if they discover how to “make it happen.” “And you can perform miracles if you but understand the power of God and the laws . . . that unlock God's power... the basic principles that enable you to understand and experience the flow of God's energy.' In short, God uses the spoken word [spoken by us] to translate spiritual energy-sheer power-into the material .... We speak to money, and it comes. We speak to storms, and they cease . . . when you confess blessing . . . and success, those things will come to you. (Pat Robertson with Bob Slosser, The Secret Kingdom 1982, pp. 62, 65, 69)
"Pat Robertson
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 4:15
What has become of the satisfaction you felt? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.
Does not prove disability on Paul's part. To say that he has some type of eye condition is just conjecture. It merely shows the level of devotion the people had for him. Not enough evidence for anything else.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Two tests that come to mind are: Look at the doctrine and lifestyle fruit And follow up with the healed a month later to see if they are still healed. I have seen people claim one can lose their healing. When Jesus healed people He instructed them to see the Priests to verify their healing -- the man born blind comes to mind.

Why today do they not cause a limb to regrow or the born blind to see?
Because the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are backslidden through a lack of preaching of true repentance and holiness. That's the simple answer.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I realize you are speculating about Luke's dairy. Are you aware of any copies of his notes outside of Acts today? Just curious.

There is a Dictionary of Miracles by
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer
Not that I know of, unless they are buried deep in the Vatican archives.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Exaggerated reports is lying and discredits people in the minds of many people.
So is unfounded and unsubstantiated criticism and accusing people of lying who were genuinely healed, as in the lying accusation of John MacArthur of a woman who was healed of blindness, and she and her family said definitely that he was telling absolute lies.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Decades ago, people I knew who were in what many Christians consider to be in cults like Christian Science and Mind Science who were interviewed on that station. Also, people who appeared on that show that later was investigated and found the healings did not happen. Someone, wrote a book called The Faith Healers. I do not have Cable Tv, nor speakers on my computer. I also knew Christians who went on those shows that claimed to be healed who were not.
"
A former employee describes Robertson’s "Word of Knowledge” performance in James Randi’s book, “The Faith Healers:” "There was nothing "mystical" to understand; it was simply "statistical". Robertson's little faith-healing procedure is a charade -- he simply "calls out" an illness and predicts its cure, and with millions of viewers the statistical probabilities are that someone will have the disease named and that they will naturally recover. People put their faith in the belief that God speaks to Pat. (James Randi, The Faith Healers, 1989, p.201)

While I don't agree with James Randi's cynicism he has spoken for the numerous people that watch and can see through the antics that are presented as genuine Christianity and the power of God.

“(Gerry) Straub relates a non-miracle he witnessed while still a believer in the ministry he worked for. He describes Robertson, at the close of a "700 Club" videotaping, shaking hands with members of the studio audience: "He stopped when he reached a man sitting in a wheelchair ... Pat ... laid hands on him as everyone prayed for healing ... at Pat's urging the man stood up. The people cheered as the man took a couple of very shaky, small steps. While everyone applauded God, I feared the man might fall. The next day we showed the nation the miracle (on the "700 Club" broadcast). I simply wanted to know if the old man in the wheelchair was permanently healed by God or if he temporarily thought that he was healed. A few weeks later I had an assistant track down the man's family in order to see if the cure had lasted. He had died 10 days after his visit to [the Christian Broadcasting Network]. We reported his "healing" but not his death. (James Randi, The Faith Healers, 1989, p.201)

...


In his book Beyond Reason as "an effort to teach some of the basic principles that enable you to understand and experience the flow of God's energy... and to enter the world of miracles . . . teaches that miracles work according to laws which "are as valid for our lives as the laws of thermodynamics or the law of gravity." Robertson says, "The metaphysical principles of the kingdom [of God], taken by themselves, can produce fantastic temporal benefits"-and these benefits, because they follow scientific laws, can be enjoyed by atheists as well as by Christians.”

This sounds more like Christian Science than Bible teaching. Jesus did not teach a method or law. This is what happens to those who become unbalanced in their Bible reading and focus on one area. This is not teaching Christian doctrine. This becomes like a teaching of a force which one can use if they discover how to “make it happen.” “And you can perform miracles if you but understand the power of God and the laws . . . that unlock God's power... the basic principles that enable you to understand and experience the flow of God's energy.' In short, God uses the spoken word [spoken by us] to translate spiritual energy-sheer power-into the material .... We speak to money, and it comes. We speak to storms, and they cease . . . when you confess blessing . . . and success, those things will come to you. (Pat Robertson with Bob Slosser, The Secret Kingdom 1982, pp. 62, 65, 69)
"Pat Robertson
All you are doing is trying to justify the lack Bible type miracles in your own Christian walk. After all if they really happen, and since you are a real Christian then they would be happening for you to. I'm sorry, that not the way things work.
Had you had any interest whatsoever in finding evidence for miracles you would have read my words a little more carefully and looked into it with a little bit of diligence and spiritual maturity. I did not say Pat Robertson preforms miracles. I wouldn't use his words of knowledge real or not to tell you about miracles. What I said was the 700 club has been putting out high quality videos, as in high quality TV reenactments of Christians who have had miracles happen in their lives for many decades now. Which includes doctor testimonies. Robertson's organization is not some sectarian entity like you are exhibiting. Perhaps only 1 in 5-10 of these video's have anything to do with his organization. They are TV quality video's of miracles that happen to Christians all over the world that the 700 club gets wind of and seeks out the people so that their miracle may be documented and put to use to win others to Christ and get God the glory. The people in these video's may be Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, independent, Catholic of any other Orthodox Christian or orthodox Christian testimonial of people getting saved.
There are others that make video's like these but there is nothing out there that does them like the 700 club. Highly professional. Nor is there anyone out there who has made these for decades.
So you lose. You lose the blessing. You lose the testimony.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

lamb7

Little Lamb
Jul 19, 2017
336
304
USA
✟36,619.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All of us Christians have miracles in his/her life --> We as believers have one very specific miracle in life once we become Christian: The Holy Spirit/Salvation through Jesus. The fact that The Holy Spirit now dwells in man along with Christ's sacrifice (those 2 go together) are the biggest miracles in our lives! Can't get over that. Thanks be to God.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
All of us Christians have miracles in his/her life --> We as believers have one very specific miracle in life once we become Christian: The Holy Spirit/Salvation through Jesus. The fact that The Holy Spirit now dwells in man along with Christ's sacrifice (those 2 go together) are the biggest miracles in our lives! Can't get over that. Thanks be to God.
Let me ask you a question. What if you lived in a nation of all cultural Christians like Russia of old? All are Christians because they are born that way just like a Muslim or Hindu is a Muslim or Hindu because they were born that way. No one uses the term born again or salvation. No one has a testimonial of any kind of an encounter with God you are calling salvation. No one accepts Jesus, says a sinners prayer no nothing.
How hard would it be to find a real relation with Christ so common today? I tell you nearly impossible. If it were millions of Russian back then would be testifying of it. How does one change that situation then? For the most part those kinds of situations get changed because of the testimony of a few individuals who do find Christ. (Usually because God has to go out on some special mission just to get those few folks saved so he can then bring salvation to the others through them.) They are the open door to heavenly things into other peoples lives. This is just general the way it works. Same with healing, miracles or anything else from God.
So don't think your testimony of a divine encounter with the almighty when you accepted Christ is all that there is because its all you got. Get it?
 
Upvote 0

lamb7

Little Lamb
Jul 19, 2017
336
304
USA
✟36,619.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Let me ask you a question. What if you lived in a nation of all cultural Christians like Russia of old? All are Christians because they are born that way just like a Muslim or Hindu is a Muslim or Hindu because they were born that way. No one uses the term born again or salvation. No one has a testimonial of any kind of an encounter with God you are calling salvation. No one accepts Jesus, says a sinners prayer no nothing.
How hard would it be to find a real relation with Christ so common today? I tell you nearly impossible. If it were millions of Russian back then would be testifying of it. How does one change that situation then? For the most part those kinds of situations get changed because of the testimony of a few individuals who do find Christ. (Usually because God has to go out on some special mission just to get those few folks saved so he can then bring salvation to the others through them.) They are the open door to heavenly things into other peoples lives. This is just general the way it works. Same with healing, miracles or anything else from God.
So don't think your testimony of a divine encounter with the almighty when you accepted Christ is all that there is because its all you got. Get it?

I see what you mean Yes. Part of me believing now is because of a divine miracle I was made aware of first. The miracle happened because of a prayer to God and it was miraculous let's say the doctors were perplexed. ;)
 
Upvote 0

lamb7

Little Lamb
Jul 19, 2017
336
304
USA
✟36,619.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Let me ask you a question. What if you lived in a nation of all cultural Christians like Russia of old? All are Christians because they are born that way just like a Muslim or Hindu is a Muslim or Hindu because they were born that way. No one uses the term born again or salvation. No one has a testimonial of any kind of an encounter with God you are calling salvation. No one accepts Jesus, says a sinners prayer no nothing.
How hard would it be to find a real relation with Christ so common today? I tell you nearly impossible. If it were millions of Russian back then would be testifying of it. How does one change that situation then? For the most part those kinds of situations get changed because of the testimony of a few individuals who do find Christ. (Usually because God has to go out on some special mission just to get those few folks saved so he can then bring salvation to the others through them.) They are the open door to heavenly things into other peoples lives. This is just general the way it works. Same with healing, miracles or anything else from God.
So don't think your testimony of a divine encounter with the almighty when you accepted Christ is all that there is because its all you got. Get it?

My one questionwpuld be unless I misunderstood the reply. How would one be saved without hearing the gospel? Or would the miracle be part of it thus verifying the gospel?
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My one questionwpuld be unless I misunderstood the reply. How would one be saved without hearing the gospel? Or would the miracle be part of it thus verifying the gospel?
Not really sure what you are asking. They, using a culturally Christian nation once more, all knew the Gospel as far as they knew. What they did not know was the God of the gospel. God was not present in anyone. So if your being reconciled to God you should actually be reconciled to him in a personal way. (Once I was blind now i see.) The only thing I am trying to say is that generally, not always. That a miraculous walk with God usually comes because people around you have a miraculous walk with God. Look at the first century church. They got to hang with the miracle worker himself. He didn't just send out the 12 remember. He sent out the seventy first to do what? Told them to do what? They came back and reported they did what? The got access to heavenly things because they had access to the man from heaven.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I think that somewhere in this thread there was a comment criticising those who taught that we are "little gods". You will be interested to know that I have had some more information about that. It came to mind that it was the tempter in the Garden of Eden who hoodwinked Eve in to believing that they would be their own "gods" if she and Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Also, those who believe that they are "gods" are usually arrogant, self advertising, self praising, drawing more attention to themselves than to Christ through their pride. They forget what the greatest Apostle of Christ said about himself: "In me dwells no good thing". I don't think he felt like a "little god" at all. He said that although his letters are weighty and powerful, when he appeared before them in person he appeared weak and frail. Does that sound like a "little god"?

Actually, I don't think Jesus meant that Christians should see themselves as little gods when He quoted the Isaiah Scripture and any assertion that Christians are little gods is a misquote of what Jesus said and of the Isaiah Scripture. Therefore I have come to the strong conviction that the "little gods" doctrine is a deception to pander to people's pride and to make them think they are equal to Jesus instead of bowing before His Lordship. And the ones who peddle the doctrine are caught up in their own arrogance and puffed up attitude that they think they are something more special than the common and humble man or woman of God who just wants to love Jesus and live a holy life before Him.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is the case that the foundation was laid.
When did the Apostolic Dispensation End?

It seems to me that as the apostles began to disappear from the earthly scene, miraculous powers among Christians began to fade away with them as recorded in I Cor. 13:8-10.

However, as I believe you are saying and I agree, in their place was left something equally effective: the New Testament. The books constituting the New Testament were penned by eight inspired men, especially Paul. All but John's writings are believed by conservative scholars to have been written 50-70 A.D. prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. John's books are believed to have been written in the last decade of the First Century (95-98 A.D.). The New Testament serves as an infallible, all-sufficient, incorruptible, indestructible guide for the Christian (II Tim. 3:16,17; I Pet. 1:23-25).

That being the case then there is NO reason for Apostles or Prophets today.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Simon the sorcerer did similar stuff among the Samaritans, but when he saw the signs and wonders that Philip did, he turned to the Lord and was baptised. But it was when Peter and John arrived and laid hands on people and they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit that he saw something he never had. He offered money for it so he could do the same and make money out of it.

The interesting thing about the magicians of Pharaoh was that they could replicate some of the miracles that Moses was able to perform, but one thing they couldn't do was to get rid of what they conjured up. Moses was able to get rid of the plagues when Pharoah pleaded with him. The magicians were not able to.

Jesus was accused of being a magician and doing His miracles through the power of Satan, so modern preachers who have miracles happen in their ministries can expect to have the same criticism directed at them. If they criticised and accused the master, then the servants cannot expect anything better.

I concur that you cannot prove that many of these modern miracles actually happened, but can you conclusively prove that they actually didn't? I don't think you can. Therefore, a person (the same as in American Law), is innocent of falsehood until proved guilty.

It is quite true that in modern healing crusades, more people leave not healed than those who are healed. That is a fact. But where a person is healed of an incurable disease or disability and this is supported by the doctor's medical report, how can you prove without a reasonable doubt that the healing was false?

I put it to you that you can't!

Oscar, I believe with all my being and I in fact KNOW that God heals people. HE does it when He wants to and how He wants to.

What I am saying is that NO Man or Woman has that ability today as there are NO Apostles today. The Apostles are the ones to whom Jesus gave the SIGN gifts too.

Mark 16:14............
"TO THE ELEVEN Jesus said.................".

Today, it is clear that very unscrupulous and devious people have determined to make MONEY from those who are easily manipulated. They are elderly, sick, in pain and when anyone comes along who knows how to manipulate their feelings and emotions, they do just that.

Frankly Oscar, my question is based in REALITY and it is the same I have asked for years now. If those who claim to have miraculous healing powers are for real, why don’t we see cameras rolling and recording these events? And doctor’s backing them up as they empty the hospitals and cancer wards around the nation?

Then why don’t’ they go into Africa and cure all those who have AIDS? Some will claim that if a sick person’s faith is not strong enough then they will not be healed, but that is not what is required according to the Bible records of these healings. The Bible is full of examples where a healing was done when NO faith at all was required.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It is one thing to tear down the ministry of others, but it is quite another thing to do things that build up the body of Christ and the faith of believers. It seems that the critics of the modern revivals and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements do more to tear down ministries than to do any actual building up of the body of Christ themselves. So what if some of the reports of John Lake's ministry are exaggerated? What is recorded of anything that the guy who criticised and tried to tear down his ministry having done anything significant to relieve the suffering of people in his country, other than write theological documents for other academics. Let's hear what Marius Nel has actually done in his ministry to win souls for Christ.

Oscar, when a man/woman goes about doing the work of the Lord Jesus there is no reason to brag about it. The work itself speaks of the one we work for because it is done for a righters reason.

When people do unscrupulous things, the people involved notice it and they are the ones who record it for future history.

I have been to Uganda Africa 3 times myself. We built a church, living quarters for brother Kasimbo's orphanage and we did not advertise or brag about it.

I have also been to Hattie and am involved there with an orphanage as well. The need there is still overwhelming.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Does not prove disability on Paul's part. To say that he has some type of eye condition is just conjecture. It merely shows the level of devotion the people had for him. Not enough evidence for anything else.

Since none of us were there it is all conjecture.

weakness is consistent with a health problem. We are not as I know from Scripture to have that level of devotion for a person. Can you give over examples of that level of devotion for others in the New Testament?

"Paul was short of stature; the Pseudo-Chrysostom calls him "the man of three cubits" (anthropos tripechys); he was broad-shouldered, somewhat bald, with slightly aquiline nose, closely-knit eyebrows, thick, greyish beard, fair complexion, and a pleasing and affable manner. He was afflicted with a malady which is difficult to diagnose (cf. Menzies, "St. Paul's Infirmity" in the "Expository Times", July and Sept., 1904), but despite this painful and humiliating infirmity (2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Galatians 4:13-14) and although his bearing was not impressive (2 Corinthians 10:10), Paul must undoubtedly have been possessed of great physical strength to have sustained so long such superhuman labours (2 Corinthians 11:23-29). Pseudo-Chrysostom, "In princip. apostol. Petrum et Paulum" (in P.G., LIX, 494-95), considers that he died at the age of sixty-eight after having served the Lord for thirty-five years."(from CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Paul )

As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me (Gal 4:13-15).

The context is more consistent with an illness.

Saul got up from the ground,
but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing;
so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus.
For three days he was unable to see, and he neither ate nor drank (Acts 9:8-10).

From a sermon of one of the Church Fathers, that says the thorn was a person.

"
2 Corinthians 12:7
And that I should not be exalted overmuch, through the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet me.

What do you say? He that counted not the kingdom to be any thing; no, nor yet hell in respect of his longing after Christ; did he deem honor from the many to be any thing, so as both to be lifted up and to need that curb continually? For he did not say, 'that he might buffet me,' but that he may buffet me. Yet who is there would say this? What then is the meaning of what is said? When we have explained what is meant at all by the thorn, and who is this messenger of Satan, then will we declare this also. There are some then who have said that he means a kind of pain in the head which was inflicted of the devil; but God forbid! For the body of Paul never could have been given over to the hands of the devil, seeing that the devil himself submitted to the same Paul at his mere bidding; and he set him laws and bounds, when he delivered over the fornicator for the destruction of the flesh, and he dared not to transgress them. What then is the meaning of what is said? An adversary is called, in the Hebrew, Satan; and in the third Book of Kings the Scripture has so termed such as were adversaries; and speaking of Solomon, says, 'In his days there was no Satan,' that is, no adversary, enemy, or opponent. 1 Kings 5:4 What he says then is this: God would not permit the Preaching to progress, in order to check our high thoughts; but permitted the adversaries to set upon us. For this indeed was enough to pluck down his high thoughts; not so that, pains in the head. And so by the messenger of Satan, he means Alexander the coppersmith, the party of Hymenæus and Philetus, all the adversaries of the word; those who contended with and fought against him, those that cast him into a prison, those that beat him, that led him away to death ; for they did Satan's business. As then he calls those Jews children of the devil, who were imitating his deeds, so also he calls a messenger of Satan every one that opposes. He says therefore, There was given to me a thorn to buffet me; not as if God puts arms into such men's hands, God forbid! not that He does chastise or punish, but for the time allows and permits them."CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 26 on Second Corinthians (Chrysostom)

The Bible does say thorn in the flesh???? I do not remember.
 
Upvote 0