"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Buzz_B

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Well if you don't understand there are dispensations then why don't you go and start building ark to be saved like Noah did , or why don't you take your son and offer him like Abraham did ?


Old Testament God requires blood for remmision of sin , are you doing your lamb sacrifices every year ?
First, because the body of Christ is the Ark of we who think spiritually cooperate together to build.

And second you just proved that you think and speak ill of the Old Testament God.

And further you just proved that there are a company of those who are like you and agree with you.

Too bad. :)
 
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JIMINZ

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It is so easy to confuse ourselves and that part I am sure God is sympathetic toward. But put on your thinking cap here for a moment and give yourself to follow the thoughts I am about to speak. You will not know they are from God until you do.

Even some of us who either do not or no longer do accept OSAS have been making a mistake. Not that we are wrong that OSAS is wrong, but in that we have gulped down what the many have said about Matthew 7:23-23 being those who believe in works. Verse 21 clearly there shows works are required. But what even some of us who do not believe OSAS have failed to see is that these verses are really about those who believe they have the Holy Spirit in them and doing the work. But because they believe God is doing it all for them they do yet give themselves over also to sin. Thus Matthew 7:23.

Jesus told us, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Who does Jesus lay the responsibility on? It is important that we be honest with ourselves about that answer.

And who of you can say that keeping Jesus' commandments is then not a requirement? Only the unsaved would say it is not a requirement.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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What then are these Commandment Jesus spoke of that we may know them?

You speak so surely of keeping Jesus Commandments.

Where is the list of Jesus Commandments, without which a man does not know if he keeps them or not?
 
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JIMINZ

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You are wrong. That is the logical fallacy that RadientGrace spoke of. For example, Blood Bought 1953 ended his conclusion saying, "Faith plus nothing." Can you not see that James clearly thought that was a logical fallacy when James said, "O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" There is no such things as faith alone except in the imagination of those who engage in logical fallacies. Something is always required of us. They did not receive a gift of salvation free from having to work to avail themselves to it.

So where are you making your mistake of thinking then? You are forgetting that it had to first begin with something free because being dead in our sins our works had no value with God. He would not even consider our works because we were dead in his eyes due to sin. So the gift was not salvation but the gift was the grace that loved us while we were dead in our sins so that by that free gift of grace we could be returned to life that our works could be considered as having value and thus we would have a chance to secure salvation through our obedience to God as he teaches us how. (This compares to how he told the nation of Israel that he was teaching them to benefit themselves. Isaiah 48:17)

Did I state that plain enough? If you have any further questions just ask. If you understand what i said, then proceed to compare it to Scripture and see that it is so. You will then figure out what you missed.
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So, your saying an unsaved individual can also believe in OSAS?

What would be his purpose for believing such a thing?
 
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Buzz_B

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Interestingly, Paul teaches something different ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
We were dead and it could not have been of a dead man's works. God is not going to allow dead men to have credit for their works for dead men being dead spiritually in their thinking would just boast.

Not so with men God has made alive spiritually for they listen and are humble and their prideful thinking is healed. They realize that they would have no works they could do if God had not made them alive.

Evidently that is too much for the many to see which proves what concerning the many? That they are yet dead spiritually. And if they cannot hear this of God then how shall they hear it of us?
 
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Buzz_B

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What then are these Commandment Jesus spoke of that we may know them?

You speak so surely of keeping Jesus Commandments.

Where is the list of Jesus Commandments, without which a man does not know if he keeps them or not?
The answer may just be too wonderful for you to hear.

Here in summation is that work we do:

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
 
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razzelflabben

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I believe that you believe exactly what you have said you believe.

You do not believe that God will complete the good work He started in believers.
please quote where I said that God will not complete the work He started in believers since I believe with all my heart that He will and does....it will be interesting to see the quote that I didn't say.
I did not say that the flesh cannot make choices to sin. I did say that the spiritual man cannot sin.
now now now, if you can reinvent what I said I can at least use your words to extrapolate something you didn't intend, now can't I?!

Here is the thing, according to the way you worded your post we absolutely can assume that you think that man is not capable of sinning after coming to the saving knowledge of Christ and that is totally contrary to what scripture teaches...so the real question here is are you going to talk to me and what I have said or are you going to insist on reinventing what I said and in that pretend to be righteous?

As to the spiritual man...yes and no depending on what you mean by the spiritual man. IOW's if by spiritual man you mean when we are living in the power of the indwelling HS...amen On the other hand, if by spiritual man you mean when we come to Christ then scripture and I both disagree with you and since I take scripture at it's word that leaves us at an impasse.
"As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:17-20
yep...the very passage I presented that shows that even the genuine believer can and sometimes does sin...just like I said and you disagreed with.
So that our sins may be forgiven and we can regain lost fellowship with the Lord.
yep...that is how it works, just like the non OSAS people have been telling you all this time...lol funny how you disagree with what they say even though you agree with what they say...lol
This is rather basic stuff is it not?

What I am saying makes perfect sense to the Holy Spirit who first wrote it for us.

I'm ready anytime you are willing to believe the scriptures.
lol oh my what a load of funny accusations and non sense judgement...
You do not believe that believers have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.
except that is the thing, I do believe that believers have passed from death to life and will not face condemnation...just like I said I believe but you claim I don't believe what I say I believe which is like the most ridiculous thing someone can claim about another person and still expect to be taken seriously.

As I said before the only real difference in the two beliefs is whether or not we can return the gift of salvation once accepting it. I say we can and if we do we will on judgment day be subject to the same judgment as the non believer because we rejected/ returned/denied/whatever word you want to put on it, the truth of Christ. See, it's all about whether or not we accept the truth of God...apparently you don't accept the truth of God because you can't even accept the truth of what I believe and have openly said.
Therefore you do not believe that God will complete the good work He begins in all believers as He has promised.
again false accusations and I encourage you to post the quote where I say that God will not finish the work He has begun...see the problem is that the work He will finish is even as you say here in the believer...what I am telling you is that not everyone who comes to Christ as a believer remains a believer therefore there is no contradiction in saying that we can "fall away" and that God will lfinish the work He has begun in all believers and I will NOT continue to tolerate your misrepresenting what I say and believe as if you are God.
It does no good for you to say that you believe God starts and finishes our faith and that He will complete the good work He started in us - if you believe that a saved person can be lost.
lol I don't believe a saved person is lost I have clearly stated that many times over. I do believe that a saved person can reject the salvation He has been given just like the unbeliever has the right to choose whether or not he believes in the first place...there is nothing about that that is lost...it's a willful act of defiance.
This isn't rocket surgery. You and I don't believe the same things about things related to salvation.
lol...you still refuse to listen to what is being said
 
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Buzz_B

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So, your saying an unsaved individual can also believe in OSAS?

What would be his purpose for believing such a thing?
It is true for those who think they are saved when they are in fact not. That describes the majority of OSAS believers. You have not had a brain storm to know that one who does not care whether he is saved does not care about the subject at all. You are just wrangling to find something to twist into a poison dart.
 
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Oldmantook

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Wow, excellent way of putting it, "If you could loose your salvation, then you would." In the contrapositive it has a nice ring, "If you didn't loose your salvation, then you can't"
I very much agree with the realization that non OSAS carries with it a heavy note of arrogance. To deny perseverance of the saints seems to, by necessity, exalt the human individual as the pilot of his salvation.
Your anthropocentric argument rings hollow. One could just as easily say that God is my pilot but he has chosen me as his co-pilot of salvation. As a co-pilot, I am required to obey the commands of the pilot. No obedience to the "pilot" = no salvation. "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," (Heb 5:9). Both believing and obeying are requisite for salvation. Ceasing to do either one, results in loss of salvation.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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It is true for those who think they are saved when they are in fact not. That describes the majority of OSAS believers. You have not had a brain storm to know that one who does not care whether he is saved does not care about the subject at all. You are just wrangling to find something to twist into a poison dart.

Well by your logic if you don't keep commandments then you are not saved , did you prepare for hell alredy since you are divorced ? Since you divorce and had sex with somebody else you cannot inherit according to your logic because fornicators can't inherit as seen in 1 Corinthians 6:9 so why bother posting here since you alredy lost your own battle ?
 
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Buzz_B

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Well by your logic if you don't keep commandments then you are not saved , did you prepare for hell alredy since you are divorced ?
Is that comment indicative of how low you are willing to sink?

My wife left me for another man many years ago who she thought she had fallen in love with at her place of employment. But all my children are by that one woman.

Is there anything else you would like to know in your desperate search to find knives to throw? Are you being like Christ? Or, like those Pharisees who tossed their missiles at Christ?

You do owe me an apology, you know. But you should apologize first to God. I don't even really care about receiving an apology. I care about you and what is best for you.
 
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JIMINZ

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We are saved by God's grace and by good works.
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Are you able to produce the verse which says that?

Sort of like this, "We are saved by Grace."

Eph. 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And, "Good Works Will Follow."

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you see, only after we receive Gods' Grace unto Salvation do we walk in Good Works, having been ordained beforehand to do so.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Is that comment indicative of how low you are willing to sink?

My wife left me for another man many years ago who she thought she had fallen in love with at her place of employment. But all my children are by that one woman.

Is there anything else you would like to know in your desperate search to find knives to throw? Are you being like Christ? Or, like those Pharisees who tossed their missiles at Christ?

You do owe me an apology, you know. But you should apologize first to God. I don't even really care about receiving an apology. I care about you and what is best for you.

I will apologise if you explain to me how could David be saved if he commited murder .
 
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Buzz_B

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Are you able to produce the verse which says that?

Sort of like this, "We are saved by Grace."

Eph. 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And, "Good Works Will Follow."

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you see, only after we receive Gods' Grace unto Salvation do we walk in Good Works, having been ordained beforehand to do so.
Reminds me of the man who saw one sliver of gold and became so fixated on watching it for fear it would get lost that he could not see the rest of the gold which lay nearby so as to have the entire nugget.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Reminds me of the man who saw one sliver of gold and became so fixated on watching it for fear it would get lost that he could not see the rest of the gold which lay nearby so as to have the entire nugget.

Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So sin is gone either by yourself or by Jesus , since both can't be , you choose .
 
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Buzz_B

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I will apologise if you explain to me how could David be saved if he commited murder .
Obviously you apology would mean nothing then if you did issue it.

God is merciful but God and does forgive immensely but God does not excuse man to sin.

Romans 3:25 " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"

What does that mean, "through the forbearance of God."
 
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JIMINZ

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The answer may just be too wonderful for you to hear.

Here in summation is that work we do:

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
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You can cut the Condescending attitude.

Those were the Commandments Jesus was speaking of?
Surely there must be more than that.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus was saying Keep My Commandments, way before the Last supper.
 
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JIMINZ

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It is true for those who think they are saved when they are in fact not. That describes the majority of OSAS believers. You have not had a brain storm to know that one who does not care whether he is saved does not care about the subject at all. You are just wrangling to find something to twist into a poison dart.
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Is it then your belief, that those who believe in OSAS are not Saved?
 
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Buzz_B

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Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So sin is gone either by yourself or by Jesus , since both can't be , you choose .
So you are saying that our sins cannot become past and we be made righteous by obediently following the spirit of Christ's example and applying Christ's thinking in our life?

You must think is "the way and the truth and the life" even for those who neglect to do as he did while in the flesh. How sad.
 
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Buzz_B

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Is it then you belief, that those who believe in OSAS are not Saved?
As it would apply to most, common sense says so, all though I cannot judge who ultimately will or won't be saved. But those who are saved would act saved; not just boast of being saved.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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So you are saying that our sins cannot become past and we be made righteous by obediently following the spirit of Christ's example and applying Christ's thinking in our life?

You must think is "the way and the truth and the life" even for those who neglect to do as he did while in the flesh. How sad.

They cannot because there is no ongoing sacrifice , Christ died once for sin not every day . And you are not saved by being like Christ because Buddah was too a good person but he was not the lamb of God .

God can't have single sin in his presence , and if you commit one sin you are guilty of all .

James 2:10

Either your sins are put on Christ 2 Corinthians 5:21 and judged at cross , or your sins are still on you and you will die with your sins .
 
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