Ephesians 2:8-10 does state that God saves us, through His grace, ... that we might perform the works He has ordained for us ...
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"If you could lose your salvation, you would."
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Ephesians 2:8-10 does state that God saves us, through His grace, ... that we might perform the works He has ordained for us ...
Cat Loaf You
Active Member
No that's quite heresy , even in OT we see God clearly saying you can't do anything and that it was always grace .
Psalm 49
6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
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Marvin Knox
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I have listened to all that is being said.
There is a big difference between just quoting scripture and actually incorporating it into you belief system when push comes to shove.
That time is when a person confronts the question of just who it is who first chose whom and, after arriving at the answer from scripture, having the faith that God will complete the good work He began in you.
I have listened very carefully. I am speaking very slowly. i am not angry at you or anyone else here.
The plain truth is that, despite your trying to say otherwise, you simply do not believe that your faith is an act of God's grace from start to finish.
I have taken the time to listen to those who believe non OSAS theology and there is a world of difference between the two camps.
Listen carefully to those who believe that believers are secure in their salvation.
They do not believe that the new creation loses it's right to chose. But to reject Christ is to sin and the new creation cannot sin because the Spirit of God dwells in him and God cannot sin.
You need to listen more carefully to what believers in salvation by grace believe and also listen more carefully to what the scriptures say about the new creation not sinning by rejecting Christ.
I have listened to you and I have listened to Jason and I have listened to those who won't believe, in spite of the testimony of the Lord Himself, that we have passed from death to life and will not come again into condemnation.
No they do not. Both sides do and say completely different things as I clearly pointed out.
You need to go back and listen more carefully to what I said.
I have not called you names and I don't intend to start calling you names. Disagreement is not name calling.
Those who don't believe the words of Jesus concerning children of God passing from death to life and not coming again in condemnation do not agree with those who do.
The gulf between the two camps is quite wide and will remain so as long as you deny this plain fact.
The simple truth is that you and others like you do not believe that God first laid hold of them for salvation and that He will complete the good work He first began in them.
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What i said was very nearly a quote of Paul's teaching in Ephesians 2:8-10. Why would accuse me of heresy ???
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
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Oldmantook
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For clarification, by rejection do you mean that they rejected and never received the gift of salvation in the first place? If so, then this passages refers to unbelievers?
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Forgive me, but it's hard to be sure what you meant to say about heresy, even seeming as if you put Ephesians 2:10 into being heresy, which I doubt you meant.
It could be an 'either/or' mistake though. We often can temporarily think that if A is true, then B must be false, compared to the other possibility -- that both A is true and B is true.
We are saved only by grace and that only by faith. But if there is true, actual faith, then there will be the fruits of faith, by the words of Christ Jesus in John chapter 15 (and there are many other passages if you want to see more, but I feel it's best to totally take in a full passage like John chapter 15).
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Blood Bought 1953
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“ we are saved by faith plus good works” Paul said if we believe Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead we will be saved.He gave a warning to those that would “pervert” his Gospel.I hope newbie Christians realize this is what constitutes “ falling from grace”
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Honestly, I am not clear about the passage, ... but it seems to be speaking of those who have been saved, ... but then knowingly reject the gift they have been given ...
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First, nowhere does the words "Bible" and or "Trinity" appear in the Bible, but yet we use these words none the less within the faith. Second, the verses I have shown you (Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:18, Ephesians 3:17) is sufficient to show a person that Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation" or "Salvation for all of Time." One has to ignore these verses in order to see a belief that they want to see. Oh, and eternal life is a person named Jesus Christ (See 1 John 5:12). Abiding in Christ is conditional. If one sins, they are no longer seeking to abide in Christ anymore.
You said:
Yes. He that HEARETH (OBEYS) Jesus's words and believes upon Him has eternal life. So yes. One has to obey Christ and His commands to have eternal life. This is not a new teaching in the New Testament. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). The author of Hebrews says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (See Hebrews 5:9).
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razzelflabben
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lol this is again what each side says of the other...so it's just more name calling without listening to either side.
huh? Both sides believe the same on this matter...
I'm just saying that your post does NOT reflect the beliefs of the non OSAS person. That has nothing to do with being angry with anyone and everything to do with not listening to what is being said. And yes, I have even in this thread called out non OSAS people who have misrepresented OSAS belief. My core issue is with not talking about the differences without first reinventing what is being said and taught and believed.
wow...now you judge me without even knowing what I believe....how strange of a thing for a mere human to be able to do...as I pointed out, even in this thread I have pointed out places that both sides misrepresent one another and asked for them to stop doing so so that discussion could be effective...so tell me please given evidence that I have done this, what is it exactly that you think I believe? what gives you the right to accuse me of not believing that our faith is an act of God's grace when I have said that it is? See, this is why you don't know what is being taught because you don't listen well enough to even know that I believe faith is an act of God's grace even when I said that it was.
so now we are back to man cannot make their own choice to sin after coming to belief that saves...sorry that is not what we see in scripture. 1 John 5:17 so according to you the believer cannot do anything wrong...why then are believers told to confess one to another...James 5:16? See what you are saying makes no sense especially when you try to argue what you do not understand.
well based on these accusations you have not heard anything I have said so we know from this paragraph alone that you are wrong because it does not reflect anything I have said or believe. When you are ready to listen let me know...I'm sure we can have a good discussion when you are ready to talk to not at those you deem to be wrong without ever hearing what they are saying.
that isn't where we disagree as I and others have repeatedly told you...where then is your hearing?
I agree with the notion that God laid hold of them for salvation and He will complete the good work He has begun...that isn't in disagreement as you have been told and shown...so at this point you either need to address what is being said or stop addressing me altogether.
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Oldmantook
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So would it be fair to say that rejecting the gift of salvation that they already possess would essentially be the same as failure to keep it? Perhaps just semantics. Nonetheless let's examine the passage.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
The verb tense in v.6 is critical in understanding this passage. Since they are crucifying and subjecting Christ to open shame - they are in still engaged in sins of willful rebellion against God. Their continued actions in this manner give ample evidence that they have not repented. Since these believers have not repented and turned away from these sins but continue to do them, it is impossible "to be restored again to repentance" since they choose to continue sinning. Thus they have become lost; forfeited their salvation.
Paul warns about continued sin in the life of the believer and its consequences in Rom 8:13. "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
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When you read Galatians 5:4, you also have to read Galatians 5:2 to get the context.
Galatians 5:4 says,
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
But which Law is Paul talking about?
Is Paul talking about the Old Covenant Law?
Is Paul talking about all law?
Is Paul talking about the New Covenant Law?
Well, the context of Scripture says,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
Is circumcsion a part of the Old Law or the New Law?
It is a part of the Old Testament Laws and it is not a part of any New Testament Commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. So it is clear that Paul here is talking about the Old Law.
So Paul is saying.... if you seek to be justified by the Old Law or Old ways (like circumcision), Christ shall profit you nothing.
Oh, and yes. We are not justified by law keeping alone. Nobody here is teaching such a thing. The Jews that Jesus condemned had ignored God's grace and mercy. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like faith and mercy (See Matthew 23:23). Jesus implied to us that the the Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector and cry out unto God like the Tax Collector did. For the whole point of the Parable was not to be like the Pharisee and we are to cry out unto God and ask for His forgiveness. The Pharisee was not doing this. So getting back to Galatians: We learn Paul here is condemning the false Pharisee religion that turned salvation into a distorted system of God's laws alone without grace and mercy and faith (Which is the same thing that Jesus condemned). How so?
Well, the Bible very clearly tells us that we are not only saved by God's grace by faith (i.e. asking Jesus to forgive us of our sins and believing that He died on the cross for our sins and that He resurrected from the grave on our behalf), but we are also saved by good works (of the Lord done through us), too. For here are...
Verses that Show that We are Also Saved by Works:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (KJ21).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:
Jesus says,
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).
Jesus also says,
"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).
And Peter says,
"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).
Paul says,
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).
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Blood Bought 1953
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John 11:25-26
I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
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Actually, most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear because they were still yet carnal (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). In fact, please look at Hebrews 5:14; For it defines "strong meat" as being able to discern between good and evil.
Anyways, the majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works. How so? Well,
Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
Titus 2:14 says,
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says,
13 "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, "
Romans 15:18-19 says,
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient —
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. NKJV
Romans 1:16-18 says,
16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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Yet, the Bible describes one is not really believing in the Lord, if they are not obeying Him. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). In fact, if you were skip back to John 10:27, you would learn that the sheep who have eternal life and cannot be snatched out his hand are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus.
Paul says,
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Anathema means accursed.
How does Jesus define loving Him?
Jesus says,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
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Yet, this is in context to John saying, "sin not" in 1 John 2:1. This is also in context to walking in the light as Christ as in the light so that the blood of Jesus cleanses a person from all sin in 1 John 1:7. This is in context to 1 John 2:4 that says he that says He knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. Is one keeping the commandments? Jesus says to the Corinthians that they are to prove that Christ is in them unless they are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). The way we can have an assurance in knowing Christ is if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3).
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deusartemlux
Solus Christus
Wow, excellent way of putting it, "If you could loose your salvation, then you would." In the contrapositive it has a nice ring, "If you didn't loose your salvation, then you can't"
I very much agree with the realization that non OSAS carries with it a heavy note of arrogance. To deny perseverance of the saints seems to, by necessity, exalt the human individual as the pilot of his salvation.
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Marvin Knox
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I believe that you believe exactly what you have said you believe.
You do not believe that God will complete the good work He started in believers.
I did not say that the flesh cannot make choices to sin. I did say that the spiritual man cannot sin.
"As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:17-20
So that our sins may be forgiven and we can regain lost fellowship with the Lord.
This is rather basic stuff is it not?
What I am saying makes perfect sense to the Holy Spirit who first wrote it for us.
I'm ready anytime you are willing to believe the scriptures.
You do not believe that believers have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.
Therefore you do not believe that God will complete the good work He begins in all believers as He has promised.
It does no good for you to say that you believe God starts and finishes our faith and that He will complete the good work He started in us - if you believe that a saved person can be lost.
This isn't rocket surgery. You and I don't believe the same things about things related to salvation.
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