"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Tree of Life said:

Jesus does not pray that Judas would not be lost. What verses are you referring to again?

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John 17:12...While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The whole thing begins in verse 6-19 look closely at verse 9 and then 11-12

Cat Loaf You said:

If you are born again you are purchased by God for Jesus Christ by his blood , you do not decide now .
When Jesus says nobody is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand that include yourself even if you tried .

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dealt with this argument pages and pages ago and no one responded to what was said so I will not repeat myself and just wait for someone to respond instead of just offering empty talking points.

Buzz_B said:

Clearly those that think they have impunity to sin are the only ones that will do so without worry and so never progress to form a habit of not sinning. They, by the belief that they are free from impunity for sin, have no real reason to fight their fascination with the parts of sin they have found pleasure in. And the majority who would do that would naturally be OSAS believers.

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This is human speculation ... and discounts the power of God to inspire faithfulness.

We love God ... because He first loved us ...

And that LOVE has inspired countless believers over 2,000 years, to practice faithfulness to God. Not perfection, ... but faithfulness.

One evidence of the non-neccesity of a "use it or lose it" aspect of God's salvation is the record of the Catholic Church versus that of Protestant believers.

Clearly the Catholic church has a more penal doctrine of salvation than most Protestants hold. Yet, according to Pew, Protestant christians out-perform Catholics in almost every measure of church practice, including church attandance, Bible study, time spent in prayer, etc.

thesunisout said:

You've missed the condition in His promise:

All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

If we come to Jesus He won't cast us out. There is no such promise for those who won't come to Him.

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Well ... if you don't COME to Jesus, ... there is no NEED for Him to cast you out ...

BryanJohnMaloney said:

"Once saved, always saved" is a mere doctrine of men, based upon the logic of men, and in contradiction to Scripture.

If it were not a false doctrine, then Scripture would not be replete with warnings to the faithful to stay true and hold fast. There would be no instruction to "work out" anything "with fear and trembling", for there would be no work to do. There would be no need to resist any temptation, for no temptation could ever actually tempt any of the saved.

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Nonsense ...

There are all sorts of reasons christians are encouraged to be faithful, ... other than to avoid the loss of their salvation.

For instance ...

Preparedness for service to God
Effectiveness in prayer
To avoid God's chastisement
To avoid being a stmbleblock for other christians
To avoid casting a bad light upon all christians
For keeping peace within the body of Christ
To merit rewards and to avoid loss of reward

Etc.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Wow.....this Christianity sure is complicated! Can anybody here put it put I in a nutshell? Something like this——-Love God and live as you please “ Head for the hills,Ma Barker!! Get the smelling salts! There’s gonna be sin galore!! Is there anybody in here with the maturity in their faith to understand what St.Augustine meant?

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The thing is that I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can sin as much as they like and yet they are still saved because they have a belief on Jesus. Then there are people who think they will generally walk uprightly but yet they will always sin as a part of this life and yet they are forgiven if they sin again at some point in the future. They think it doesn't matter if they sin a little because they feel bad about it and they are striving not to sin. Yet, they are saying they cannot stop sinning. I do not really see a difference between sinning a lot and sinning a little while thinking one is saved. Both are an attempt to turn God's grace into a license to sin. The "I" is about self and or sin in both of these kinds of beliefs. If one forsakes their evil ways it is all about surrendering to God and His good ways.

razzelflabben said:

A_Thinker said:
A_Thinker said: What I think you should rather be looking for is scripture which indicates that spiritual'everlasting life can end ...

razzelflabben siad: huh? How so, we have seen passages that talk about those that have believed unto salvation being thrown into the lake of fire wouldn't that satisfy what you are asking for here?

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What passages are you speaking of ... ???

Cat Loaf You said:

If you are born again you are purchased by God for Jesus Christ by his blood , you do not decide now .
When Jesus says nobody is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand that include yourself even if you tried .

Click to expand...

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

One cannot draw back from something they never had. That phrase, "draw back", is the Greek word, "hupostello", meaning, "to cower or shrink", and is also translated, "withdraw."

God does not change and here is an example of that drawing back:
Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

You by that OSAS doctrine worship a completely different God than is shown in the Old Testament. And you have ten thousand inventions to justify doing so. But the truth for most is that they presumed to judge God in the Old Testament as being cruel and so they have managed to come up with all sorts of rationalizations with which to change God.

That is not going to get you what you desire, matter not how much contentment you draw from those false ideas.

Tree of Life said:

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

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No one is saved by their works. (But if they have faith that does save, they will indeed do the "works prepared for us" as Paul wrote).

I think God is far deeper and smarter than us, because scripture says this --

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I think this means we can't even be sure about that idea that salvation is not even partly up to us (to take even any actions at all)! I do know that Christ gave instructions to disciples who already believed, and that Paul and Peter and James and John wrote instructions to do actions to believers who already believed.

So, though I cannot know whether someone can be saved if they ignore some of the instructions given, I do know Christ said we cannot endure or make it unless we do as He said:

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

A_Thinker said:

What passages are you speaking of ... ???

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several were posted about the vine and the branches...I know the interpretation is being questioned but a care study is enough to tell us for sure.

A_Thinker said:

Nonsense ...

There are all sorts of reasons christians are encouraged to be faithful, ... other than to avoid the loss of their salvation.

For instance ...

Preparedness for service to God
Effectiveness in prayer
To avoid God's chastisement
To avoid being a stmbleblock for other christians
To avoid casting a bad light upon all christians
For keeping peace within the body of Christ
To merit rewards and to avoid loss of reward

Etc.

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First, if a preacher tells an audience that they are saved and it is nothing in what they do (and the preacher adds no further details), then many in the audience could get the wrong idea that they could sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license to sin). This is wrong (Thereby telling us that such a belief is simply not true). Second, I do not see any of those reasons you listed as being a deterrent (to get them to stop sinning) when it comes to a person's sin. The first one doesn't make any sense. Why would a believer (who wants to sin) care about being prepared in service to God if they think they can sin and still be saved? That is not really an effective deterrent to keep a person from sinning. The second one, the effectiveness of prayer is also not an effective deterrent to get a believer to stop sinning. Prayer is about being selfless and not about being selfish. They are not going to care about prayer if they desire to sin in this life and or to justify evil doing on some level. The third one, God's chastisement is also not an effective deterrent for the believer who desires to think they will always sin in this life (and yet still be saved). Why? Because unbelievers even go through trials or sufferings in this life. The fourth one, to avoid being a stumbling block to other Christians is also not an effective deterrent to get a believer (Who wants to sin) to stop sinning. They can secretly sin and or not really care about others. They got their golden ticket to Heaven. What does it matter if they make other believers to stumble? If they hurt others, they will be forgiven and be next to them in Heaven. Heck, they can even keep doing it in Heaven unless God gives them a lobotomy in regards to immorality. But if such is the case, then why live this life out here? What is the point? To accept Jesus and treat sin as if it is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten? That really does not sound like, "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10). Anyone can secretly believe in Jesus and act like a sinner or an unbeliever. We have to be faithful to Jesus until death if we expect to have the crown of life (i.e. eternal life). The fifth and the sixth reasons are too similar to the fourth reason. Sin at the heart is not loving others. So a lack of love towards one's brethren is not going to deter them from sinning. The seventh one, a loss of rewards is also not an effective deterrent to keep a believer (Who wants to sin) from stopping in their sin. For they cannot see these rewards that they are losing. They are unseen. So why would they care about rewards they cannot see? If a believer wants to sin, they are going to seek out the pleasure of sin in the moment and not think about the destructive after effects in this life. They can secretly sin and think they can get away with it.

Only a temporary horrible pain and a destruction (annihilation) of their soul in the Lake of Fire is an effective deterrent to keep a believer from sinning. For the idea of being tormented in intense flames for an unknown amount of time by God and being erased from existence is not appealing to any person (if they were to stop and really think about it).

Halbhh said:

No one is saved by their works. (But if they have faith that does save, they will indeed do the "works prepared for us" as Paul wrote).

I think God is far deeper and smarter than us, because scripture says this --

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I think this means we can't even be sure about that idea that salvation is not even partly up to us (to take even any actions at all)! I do know that Christ gave instructions to disciples who already believed, and that Paul and Peter and James and John wrote instructions to do actions to believers who already believed.

So, though I cannot know whether someone can be saved if they ignore some of the instructions given, I do know Christ said we cannot endure or make it unless we do as He said:

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

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We are saved by God's grace and by good works. These works are not our works alone but they are the fruits of God within our life. So we cannot pat ourselves on the back and take the credit entirely for them because they are works of the Lord.

Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). For there are many commands in the New Testament that if disobeyed leads to spiritual death (or a loss of salvation), unless one asks God for forgiveness and they forsake such a sin (and obey Him). Jesus says if we call any brother a fool, we are in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus says if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus essentially says if we do not help or care for the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). John says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John does not mention another group of liars who are an exception here. All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Granted, I believe we are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace. For if we sin, do we do a good work to get saved? No. We ask God's forgiveness and seek to be saved by His grace and mercy. But God's grace and mercy will lead a person to walk uprightly in this life in time. I believe this because the reason Christ died for us was to make us holy and blameless (See Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14).

Jason0047 said:

First, if a preacher tells an audience that they are saved and it is nothing in what they do (and the preacher adds no further details), then many in the audience could get the wrong idea that they could sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license to sin). This is wrong (Thereby telling us that such a belief is simply not true). Second, I do not see any of those reasons you listed as being a deterrent (to get them to stop sinning) when it comes to a person's sin. The first one doesn't make any sense. Why would a believer (who wants to sin) care about being prepared in service to God if they think they can sin and still be saved? That is not really an effective deterrent to keep a person from sinning. The second one, the effectiveness of prayer is also not an effective deterrent to get a believer to stop sinning. Prayer is about being selfless and not about being selfish. They are not going to care about prayer if they desire to sin in this life and or to justify evil doing on some level. The third one, God's chastisement is also not an effective deterrent for the believer who desires to think they will always sin in this life (and yet still be saved). Why? Because unbelievers even go through trials or sufferings in this life. The fourth one, to avoid being a stumbling block to other Christians is also not an effective deterrent to get a believer (Who wants to sin) to stop sinning. They can secretly sin and or not really care about others. They got their golden ticket to Heaven. What does it matter if they make other believers to stumble? If they hurt others, they will be forgiven and be next to them in Heaven. Heck, they can even keep doing it in Heaven unless God gives them a lobotomy in regards to immorality. But if such is the case, then why live this life out here? What is the point? To accept Jesus and treat sin as if it is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten? That really does not sound like, "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10). Anyone can secretly believe in Jesus and act like a sinner or an unbeliever. We have to be faithful to Jesus until death if we expect to have the crown of life (i.e. eternal life). The fifth and the sixth reasons are too similar to the fourth reason. Sin at the heart is not loving others. So a lack of love towards one's brethren is not going to deter them from sinning. The seventh one, a loss of rewards is also not an effective deterrent to keep a believer (Who wants to sin) from stopping in their sin. For they cannot see these rewards that they are losing. They are unseen. So why would they care about rewards they cannot see? If a believer wants to sin, they are going to seek out the pleasure of sin in the moment and not think about the destructive after effects in this life. They can secretly sin and think they can get away with it.

Only a temporary horrible pain and a destruction (annihilation) of their soul in the Lake of Fire is an effective deterrent to keep a believer from sinning. For the idea of being tormented in intense flames for an unknown amount of time by God and being erased from existence is not appealing to any person (if they were to stop and really think about it).

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The scriptures use ALL of the reasons given as encouragements for faithfulness and for deterrents to sin ...

But ... I hear you(r) opinion, as well ...

Jason0047 said:

We are saved by God's grace and by good works.

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Interestingly, Paul teaches something different ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

A_Thinker said:

The scriptures use ALL of the reasons given as encouragements for faithfulness and for deterrents to sin ...

But ... I hear you(r) opinion, as well ...

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I believe the things you mentioned only work for the believer who truly wants to please God and do what is good and right in this life. A person who wants God and their sin will find a way to justify it on some level (Whether it be a little bit of sin every once in a blue moon or a lot of sin).

A_Thinker said:

Interestingly, Paul teaches something different ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are both talking about "Initial Salvation" and they are not talking about "Continued Salvation" or "Continued Faithfulness" or "Sanctification (Holiness)." How so?

Ephesians 2:1 says, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Being quickened is a one time past event by Jesus within our lives when we first accepted Him as our Savior. Ephesians 2:18 says, "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." We have access through Jesus. I gained access to the room through the door. Jesus is our door. He is our entry way. If one is already abiding in Christ, then there is no need to gain access to Him. Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,..." Why would Paul say this to saved believers who already had Christ dwelling in their hearts?

Titus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Here we see that we are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Ghost. This is talking about being born again spiritually when we first accept Christ and and ask for His forgiveness. So Titus 3:5 is talking about "Initial Salvation."

Besides, even if you wanted Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to apply in regards to "Continued Salvation" they would still be true. For we are ultimately saved by God's grace and not works. For we came to God by His grace and if we sin again, we do not do a good work to be cleansed or forgiven, but we confess our sins so as to be forgiven (See 1 John 1:9). Yet, works do play a part in the salvation process because no believer can commit serious sin under God's grace and be saved. For it would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

A_Thinker said:

Interestingly, Paul teaches something different ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

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We must not forget verse 10 though (I know you'd agree). Ephesians 2:8-10.

For me, to really understand verse 10 well, for myself I had to understand John chapters 14 and 15 (though there are other scriptures also to this same message).

I feel that just as in 1517 the church desperately needed the messages of verses 8 and 9, that today there is just as desperate a need for verse 10. Equal levels of desperate need for missing pieces of the gospel message.

Jason0047 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are both talking about "Initial Salvation" and they are not talking about "Continued Salvation" or "Continued Faithfulness" or "Sanctification (Holiness)."

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Nowhere in scripture is an "initial" salvation spoken of. The scriptures say that you are "saved", ... and possess "everlasting life" ...

John 5:24 He that heareth my words, ... and believeth upon Him Who sent Me, ... HATH everlasting life, ... and SHALL NOT come into condemnation, ... but is PASSED from death unto life.

Tree of Life said:

Some angels fell. But no angel can be called "saved".

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True none of the still-sinless angels are "rescued" and none "still have sinful natures"

By contrast all the "saved" on earth STILL have corrupt sinful natures and make bad choices from time to time.

I think we all agree with this basic detail.

I agree that saved people still struggle with sin. What's the relevance here to the OP?

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It means that saved people have sinful natures and make choices in favor of rebellion now and then.

The sinless Angels that then fell and become demons -- never had that sinful nature and STILL chose poorly.

The fiction that your having a sinful nature that leads you to make poor decisions and even rebellion against the Law of God -- is somehow your " insurance" against making a poor choice .. is a noncompelling argument

Buzz_B said:

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

One cannot draw back from something they never had. That phrase, "draw back", is the Greek word, "hupostello", meaning, "to cower or shrink", and is also translated, "withdraw."

God does not change and here is an example of that drawing back:
Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

You by that OSAS doctrine worship a completely different God than is shown in the Old Testament. And you have ten thousand inventions to justify doing so. But the truth for most is that they presumed to judge God in the Old Testament as being cruel and so they have managed to come up with all sorts of rationalizations with which to change God.

That is not going to get you what you desire, matter not how much contentment you draw from those false ideas.

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Well if you don't understand there are dispensations then why don't you go and start building ark to be saved like Noah did , or why don't you take your son and offer him like Abraham did ?


Old Testament God requires blood for remmision of sin , are you doing your lamb sacrifices every year ?