Invocation: I need help please!

Beloved2018 · Jan 30, 2018

Are there any Scripture verses that address invocation specifically? I'm not referring to intercession (i.e. those in heaven pray for us). I'm referring rather to incidents that parallel Catholic/Orthodox invocation of a particular saint. So I'm looking for an example like, Elijah appealing to David or David appealing to Abraham e.g., 'Abraham help us!' or something like that. Thanks.

Phil 1:21 · Jan 30, 2018

Beloved2018 said:
Are there any Scripture verses that address invocation specifically? I'm not referring to intercession (i.e. those in heaven pray for us). I'm referring rather to incidents that parallel Catholic/Orthodox invocation of a particular saint. So I'm looking for an example like, Elijah appealing to David or David appealing to Abraham e.g., 'Abraham help us!' or something like that. Thanks.

Nowhere in scripture does God instruct us to pray to saints or any part of the creation...only God, the Creator. There was a Catholic apologist here some time back who used to quote Job 5:1 as instruction to pray to saints (“Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?"). But the apologist conveniently omits the fact that the context of the verse is actually the opposite, as we see in verse 8, and then goes on to make the case as to why we should pray to God and God alone.

Job 5:8-27

8 “But if I were you, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10 He provides rain for the earth;
he sends water on the countryside.
11 The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
at noon they grope as in the night.
15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.
16 So the poor have hope,
and injustice shuts its mouth.

17 “Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
in seven no harm will touch you.
20 In famine he will deliver you from death,
and in battle from the stroke of the sword.
21 You will be protected from the lash of the tongue,
and need not fear when destruction comes.
22 You will laugh at destruction and famine,
and need not fear the wild animals.
23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field,
and the wild animals will be at peace with you.
24 You will know that your tent is secure;
you will take stock of your property and find nothing missing.
25 You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth.
26 You will come to the grave in full vigor,
like sheaves gathered in season.

27 “We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”

Beloved2018 · Jan 30, 2018

I don't count Job 5:1 either. It's part of an admonishment given by one of Job's 'friends' Eliphaz and although vs 8-27 sounds almost like a psalm, I take everything Job's friends say cautiously, given what I know about them.

Phil 1:21 said:
Nowhere in scripture does God instruct us to pray to saints or any part of the creation...only God, the Creator. There was a Catholic apologist here some time back who used to quote Job 5:1 as instruction to pray to saints (“Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?"). But the apologist conveniently omits the fact that the context of the verse is actually the opposite, as we see in verse 8, and then goes on to make the case as to why we should pray to God and God alone.

Job 5:8-27

8 “But if I were you, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10 He provides rain for the earth;
he sends water on the countryside.
11 The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
at noon they grope as in the night.
15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.
16 So the poor have hope,
and injustice shuts its mouth.

17 “Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
in seven no harm will touch you.
20 In famine he will deliver you from death,
and in battle from the stroke of the sword.
21 You will be protected from the lash of the tongue,
and need not fear when destruction comes.
22 You will laugh at destruction and famine,
and need not fear the wild animals.
23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field,
and the wild animals will be at peace with you.
24 You will know that your tent is secure;
you will take stock of your property and find nothing missing.
25 You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth.
26 You will come to the grave in full vigor,
like sheaves gathered in season.

27 “We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”

Phil 1:21 · Jan 30, 2018

Beloved2018 said:
I don't count Job 5:1 either. It's part of an admonishment given by one of Job's 'friends' Eliphaz and although vs 8-27 sounds almost like a psalm, I take everything Job's friends say cautiously, given what I know about them.

Very true, but verse 8 is in perfect accord with the rest of scripture, where God instructs us to pray to Him alone.

Halbhh · Jan 30, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Nowhere in scripture does God instruct us to pray to saints or any part of the creation...only God, the Creator. There was a Catholic apologist here some time back who used to quote Job 5:1 as instruction to pray to saints (“Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?"). But the apologist conveniently omits the fact that the context of the verse is actually the opposite, as we see in verse 8, and then goes on to make the case as to why we should pray to God and God alone.

Job 5:8-27

8 “But if I were you, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10 He provides rain for the earth;
he sends water on the countryside.
11 The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
at noon they grope as in the night.
15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.
16 So the poor have hope,
and injustice shuts its mouth.

17 “Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
in seven no harm will touch you.
20 In famine he will deliver you from death,
and in battle from the stroke of the sword.
21 You will be protected from the lash of the tongue,
and need not fear when destruction comes.
22 You will laugh at destruction and famine,
and need not fear the wild animals.
23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field,
and the wild animals will be at peace with you.
24 You will know that your tent is secure;
you will take stock of your property and find nothing missing.
25 You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth.
26 You will come to the grave in full vigor,
like sheaves gathered in season.

27 “We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”

Interesting. But I can't feel confident for either side for this question when they rely on just the oral arguments of Job's "friends" who turn out in chapter 38-42 to be shown so very far in the wrong, of course (so much so that they can only be saved by special sacrifices as we see in chapter 42). Just the same, we do know plain and clear instruction from Christ Himself to pray directly to our Father!

Oh, and also prayer from Job (who is still living), on their behalf.

Phil 1:21 · Jan 30, 2018

Halbhh said:
Interesting. But I can't feel confident for either side for this question when they rely on just the oral arguments of Job's "friends" who turn out in chapter 38-42 to be shown so very far in the wrong, of course (so much so that they can only be saved by special sacrifices as we see in chapter 42). Just the same, we do know plain and clear instruction from Christ Himself to pray directly to our Father!

Absolutely, which is why we should always seek answers in the whole of scripture, not just cherry-picked verses devoid of context.

Halbhh · Jan 30, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Absolutely, which is why we should always seek answers in the whole of scripture, not just cherry-picked verses devoid of context.

We agree very perfectly on that.

We know additionally Christ told that that "when any two ask" it will be given. We know this means prayer by at least 2 believers together with faith. So from this we can understand it does matter if more than one person asks for a thing. It's not that it has to be more than one -- many amazing answers to prayers have happened when prayed by just one it seems -- but that when it is more than one, that's...well, more, in some way.

Phil 1:21 · Jan 30, 2018

Halbhh said:
We agree very perfectly on that.

We know additionally Christ told that that "when any two ask" it will be given. We know this means prayer by at least 2 believers together with faith. So from this we can understand it does matter if more than one person asks for a thing. It's not that it has to be more than one -- many amazing answers to prayers have happened when prayed by just one it seems -- but that when it is more than one, that's...well, more, in some way.

Indeed the power of prayer is very real. But God tells us to direct prayer to Him alone.

Beloved2018 · Feb 1, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Indeed the power of prayer is very real. But God tells us to direct prayer to Him alone.

This is sorta off topic, but I've wanted to ask this of someone for awhile. Suppose I went to a church elder and asked him to pray for me and he agrees. While I'm still there he has a massive heart attack and the paramedics can't revive him. He passes away in my arms. As I watch his body being taken away, I whisper, 'please pray for me'. The very words I had said to him just an hr ago, when he was still in the body. What happened in the span of that 1 hr, that made asking that elder for help, go from asking a Christian for help to idolatry?

Beloved2018 · Feb 1, 2018

Also, just a reminder, prayer comes by grace. We not only pray to God, but in God, Who is everywhere present and Who fills all things.

Phil 1:21 · Feb 1, 2018

Beloved2018 said:
This is sorta off topic, but I've wanted to ask this of someone for awhile. Suppose I went to a church elder and asked him to pray for me and he agrees. While I'm still there he has a massive heart attack and the paramedics can't revive him. He passes away in my arms. As I watch his body being taken away, I whisper, 'please pray for me'. The very words I had said to him just an hr ago, when he was still in the body. What happened in the span of that 1 hr, that made asking that elder for help, go from asking a Christian for help to idolatry?

I never mentioned idolatry, but I'll answer nonetheless. Do you think there is a difference between asking an elder to pray for you versus building a statue of him, kissing that statue of him, burning incense to him, and reciting 53 rosary beads of "Hail Elder"?

Regardless, nowhere in scripture does God instruct us to pray to anyone but Him alone. And in the end, the word of God is final.

Halbhh · Feb 1, 2018

Beloved2018 said:
This is sorta off topic, but I've wanted to ask this of someone for awhile. Suppose I went to a church elder and asked him to pray for me and he agrees. While I'm still there he has a massive heart attack and the paramedics can't revive him. He passes away in my arms. As I watch his body being taken away, I whisper, 'please pray for me'. The very words I had said to him just an hr ago, when he was still in the body. What happened in the span of that 1 hr, that made asking that elder for help, go from asking a Christian for help to idolatry?

It does make sense that those in Christ who pass on are ultimately in communion with us, of course they are together with us in Christ. But....are they awake or "asleep", before the age to come? I'm not sure. But I can be sure on the other hand that
"Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."
...and so, it would seem perfectly good to continue to simply rely on what was from the early days of the chruch also, prayer by living believers. (but notice here that the two must pray with faith -- belief it will be given to them -- and 2nd agree (in their hearts!) on what they ask for)...

I'm not trying to say whether or not one could request prayer to the Father also from a passed on brother/sister (who is) in Christ. Do we see in Acts that believers did so? I don't know where if they did. It would seem to make sense that such requests for prayers to those passed on who are in Christ would appear in epistles. Why wouldn't it appear in epistles or Acts? How would Christ not direct us in something so central, when He did in fact direct us in several key ways about how to pray? Christ already knew what we are like (that sometimes faith falters, or some have less faith), and how we would tend as people to stumble at times.

Christ already would know what we need to do in prayer, in view of His already knowing that our faith can falter.

He already knew. And He gave us several precise instructions, as related to us in the gospel accounts.

GreekOrthodox · Feb 1, 2018

The earliest evidence of prayer to the saints starts showing up in the 200s. So even before there is a formal NT canon, prayer to the saints is a practice:

Prayers to Saints in the Pre-Nicene Era

1.2 St. Hippolytus of Rome: (FYI- Prayer to the 3 youths is a common theme in some parts of Eastern Orthodox services)

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.

Commentary on Daniel, 30.1[2]
Rome, Circa AD 202-211

1.5 John Ryland’s Papyrus (Egypt, Circa AD 250)

Beneath your compassion
we take refuge, Theotokos.
Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble,
but from dangers ransom us,
Only Holy, Only Blessed

This prayer to the Theotokos is very clear. It is a direct request that the Mother of God, who is among the saints with her Son, aid the troubled Christian.

1.6 Inscription on the Tomb of St. Sabina:
Funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s Tomb
Rome, Circa AD 300

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins

Halbhh · Feb 1, 2018

GreekOrthodox said:
The earliest evidence of prayer to the saints starts showing up in the 200s. So even before there is a formal NT canon, prayer to the saints is a practice:

Prayers to Saints in the Pre-Nicene Era

1.2 St. Hippolytus of Rome: (FYI- Prayer to the 3 youths is a common theme in some parts of Eastern Orthodox services)

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.

Commentary on Daniel, 30.1[2]
Rome, Circa AD 202-211

1.5 John Ryland’s Papyrus (Egypt, Circa AD 250)

Beneath your compassion
we take refuge, Theotokos.
Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble,
but from dangers ransom us,
Only Holy, Only Blessed

This prayer to the Theotokos is very clear. It is a direct request that the Mother of God, who is among the saints with her Son, aid the troubled Christian.

1.6 Inscription on the Tomb of St. Sabina:
Funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s Tomb
Rome, Circa AD 300

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins

Thank you. While the first of the three examples seems very poetic, like a psalm, and that cautions me not to leap to a conclusion from just that paragraph, the next two examples are more clear in that regard. (but we don't personally know about the ones making those requests...) I don't say I know whether or not (either way) the intercession of those passed on can be called upon (say even as compared to another situation), but there is the actual instance in the gospels of the rich man in Hades actually calling upon Abraham, which is right there in the scripture, and is directly from Christ Himself. But we can wonder if this is a parable meant to teach only a certain lesson alone -- as it certainly does powerfully about being rich and ignoring the poor, and the awful thing that will entail in consequence for that wrong later (a wrong listed even as one of the reasons also in Ezekiel for why certain cities were destroyed). So....I'd just like more to go on, to know, because....I just added a more complete reason just above in my earilier post about why it does not seem so to me.

Beloved2018 · Feb 2, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
I never mentioned idolatry,

I never said you did. I apologize. A lot of people do and this is something I've wondered about for awhile and thought you might have some insight.

but I'll answer nonetheless. Do you think there is a difference between asking an elder to pray for you versus building a statue of him,

There can be a difference. I don't see anything wrong with building statues to honor a person. Now if the statue is serving as some sort of vessel or conduit for his spirit (like in Hinduism), something idolatrous like that, then definitely, a statue should never be built.

kissing that statue of him,

I've kissed crosses and pictures before out of spontaneous stirrings of love for Christ. But I'm not silly enough to think my Savior is made of paint and wood. But again, if these things are viewed as 'incarnations' or 'hosts' for God's spirit and you're kissing them for that reason....wow...yeah...you shouldn't be doing that.

burning incense to him, and reciting 53 rosary beads of "Hail Elder"?

I've never seen that. I've only seen incense done around the altar and toward the congregation. Regarding the rosary, I recite a decade sometimes. The rosary recounts bible stories through prayers. That's one reason I like it. The second is the way it proceeds. For each decade (bible story) you begin with the Lord's Prayer, which is absolutely the most perfect prayer! I end it with, 'For Yours is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory. Amen!' Then the angelic announcement to Mary is just a perfect lead off from there, because Christ is coming (ie, God's Kingdom, Power and Glory is coming). Then the ten angelic announcements gives me time to reflect on whatever story I'm reflecting on and also helps me to reflect and focus. Then at the end, comes, 'Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, unto the ages of ages! Amen.

Regardless, nowhere in scripture does God instruct us to pray to anyone but Him alone. And in the end, the word of God is final.

I respect that. But I have known Mary's prayers and presence in my life as well as others.

Beloved2018 · Feb 2, 2018

GreekOrthodox said:
The earliest evidence of prayer to the saints starts showing up in the 200s. So even before there is a formal NT canon, prayer to the saints is a practice:

Prayers to Saints in the Pre-Nicene Era

1.2 St. Hippolytus of Rome: (FYI- Prayer to the 3 youths is a common theme in some parts of Eastern Orthodox services)

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.

Commentary on Daniel, 30.1[2]
Rome, Circa AD 202-211

1.5 John Ryland’s Papyrus (Egypt, Circa AD 250)

Beneath your compassion
we take refuge, Theotokos.
Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble,
but from dangers ransom us,
Only Holy, Only Blessed

This prayer to the Theotokos is very clear. It is a direct request that the Mother of God, who is among the saints with her Son, aid the troubled Christian.

1.6 Inscription on the Tomb of St. Sabina:
Funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s Tomb
Rome, Circa AD 300

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins

Thanks for this. I saved the link. I noticed Origen was among the names. Most in the west do not cite him, (for reasons I'm sure you are aware), but he is so incredibly early and I'd be interested in finding out if this idea originated with Origen as many claim (a very strange notion to me) or if there is evidence to the contrary.

But right now, I want to focus on Scripture.

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