"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Buzz_B · Jan 30, 2018

A_Thinker said:
The only NT text I know of which clearly speaks of a forfeiture of God's salvation is possibly Hebrews 6, ... which really presents a REJECTION of God's gift, ... rather than a FAILURE to KEEP IT ...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Balogna! No one has tasted of the heavenly free gift without first having accepted it, else they would not have it to taste it.

And that is why verse 27 says what it says. I notice you left that verse out.

These are ones who have been enlightened so as to know, else they would not be as verse 27 says. And that does not happen for one who has not accepted God's grace to let themselves be taught of such.

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Cat Loaf You said:
If i could lose my salvation i would lose it .

It's not possible to keep law without being God .

but isn't that the point? Both God and His Love are just and it is not just to remove someone's God given choice is it? If not just why would God who is just, remove that right?

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
. Is there any Biblical evidence to suggest OSAS is the case?

“Anyone who asks to be saved WILL be saved”...... it does not say “ will be put on probation”. God knows how to finish the work that He started.My salvation is of little consequence to the world , but God’s Word is.He will keep His Word and see to it that everything that must be done will be done.That last line is for those out there that unwittingly are calling God a liar, because everything that was needed was accomplished at the Cross.

again, this is a misrepresentation of non OSAS teaching...

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
That was Judas. That was a specfic situation where Christ explained that Judas was not one of His.

ah...but it is possible which is the point I was making...at least if we want to introduce this passage into a discussion about OSAS theology. In this passage, Jesus says by the very nature of His prayer that it is possible for one who is following to "fall away" then gives an example of one who did..are you suggesting that there are none in the world other than Judas that could betray Christ?

Buzz_B · Jan 30, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
Knowing who I am that makes sense to me.

I guess there are many who disagree but one of the ones that has helped over the years for my wife and I to grow much in the Word has been John MacArthur.

M-Bob

You don't see that is the same as admitting that you can?

For you, you have enough sense to let that knowledge move you to not take the holy spirit nor your obedience for granted. But you do so because the reality is you know that you can fall.

You trust your children and a part of that trust is that they will obey. But you know that does not mean it is impossible that they do not ever slip and disobey matter not how strong their love for you. That is reasonable and that is the way it is with God. Did God force the prodigal son to return or was it the prodigal sons own decision to return? And if that son had not returned of his own desire?

Mountainmanbob · Jan 30, 2018

Buzz_B said:
For you, you have enough sense to let that knowledge move you to not take the holy spirit nor your obedience for granted. But you do so because the reality is you know that you can fall.

You trust your children and a part of that trust is that they will obey. But you know that does not mean it is impossible that they do not ever slip and disobey matter not how strong their love for you. That is reasonable and that is the way it is with God. Did God force the prodigal son to return or was it the prodigal sons own decision to return? And if that son had not returned of his own desire?

You don’t know me. What are you a mind reader? Be careful when you're speaking for others for you might put your foot in your mouth -- again.
M-Bob

Buzz_B · Jan 30, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
You don’t know me. What are you a mind reader? Be careful when you're speaking for others for you might put your foot in your mouth -- again.
M-Bob

That is what is called crediting you with good sense. Was i wrong to express faith in you?

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd doesn't believe that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

well then you haven't talked to nearly enough non OSAS because all of them I know believe that God is the author and finisher of our faith...sometimes you need to simply be quiet and listen to what is really being said.

I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd displays a profound lack of understanding concerning the basic doctrine of salvation by grace.

again, this is simply false and you should heed to this passage...James 1:19 because every single non OSAS person I have ever had the privilege believes that salvation is an act of God's grace.

I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd lacks understanding concerning both what Christ accomplished at Calvary and what He accomplishes in the life of His people after they come to Him because they were drawn to Him by the Father because He gave them to Him before the foundation of the world.

now this is just getting silly funny...you really need to take some time to listen to those who believe that non OSAS theology and what they really do believe...there is very little difference between the two believes...in fact, as I pointed out many times over the difference is whether or not we loss our right of free will choice after coming to Christ for salvation. I don't know who you are talking to but it isn't the non OSAS crowd.

I have found over the years that there are two basic reasons why the OSAS crowd and the non OSAS crowd talk past each other. They are:

1. The OSAS crowd seems to lack either the wisdom or the ability to simply state the basic facts concerning their beliefs and let the Holy Spirit do His work in convicting the other side of their error.

2. The non OSAS crowd displays a basic flaw in all of our fallen human natures. That flaw is an inherent desire be in full charge of all things pertaining to our lives - including those things concerning salvation.

lol and the NON OSAS crowd says the same about the OSAS crowd which is the point...name calling without listening is getting us no where.

As for me personally - I am more than happy to turn my eternal destiny completely over to God - because, as the OP rightly says, "if I could lose my salvation I would".

both sides are in agreement with this.

I am not ashamed to be humble enough to admit that sad fact and cast all of my cares on the Lord who cares for me - knowing that He is well able to keep what I entrust to Him against the day of judgement.

again, both sides agree on this.

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Don't your words suggest that your salvation in some sense depends on you? Whether or not you're saved depends on your choice to love God or not, right?

I think what most are missing is that the non OSAS teaching is that of a willful act of rejection not some random doubt or sin or whatever else some of you all want to twist it into. IOW's it is an active decision to reject what one once held firm.

thesunisout · Jan 30, 2018

A_Thinker said:
This interpretation is in conflict with Jesus' direct statement here ...

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

He goes on to say ...

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You've missed the condition in His promise:

All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

If we come to Jesus He won't cast us out. There is no such promise for those who won't come to Him, meaning if you walk away you could be cast out.

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Tree of Life said:
This depends on what you mean by "choice". The term "freewill" or other libertarian freewill terminology does not occur in Scripture. And the notion of libertarian freewill is not a biblical concept. The Bible does talk about freedom and slavery, though.

We are free insofar as we act on our desires. A free act is something we do because we want to do it. We are not coerced or forced against our will, but we act freely - according to our will.

We have this kind of freedom. So in that sense, we do legitimately choose to follow God or not. But when we choose to repent of sin and believe in Jesus, it's because we want to repent of sin and believe in Jesus. This is God renewing our wills and giving us new desires which enable us to freely choose him (Philippians 2:13). In other words, no one chooses God against their will.

Similarly, we sin because we want to sin. And if someone refuses to repent it's because they do not want to repent. Their sinful hearts make it impossible for them to turn to God because they do not want to turn to him (Romans 8:7-8). Those who reject God do so freely - because they want to reject God.

Either way, it is still God who works to renew our minds, hearts, wills, and make it possible for us to embrace him.

amen exactly...now the question for OSAS and Non OSAS theology is whether or not that choice is removed when we come to God with saving faith. Remember, the children of Israel wanted to return to Egypt...are we all so different?

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Tree of Life said:
In John's gospel Judas is constantly described as "a devil". Though he was chosen as one of the twelve, he was always a son of destruction. He's a great example of an apostate. He was in the inner circle but he was never truly saved. Otherwise how could Jesus call him a devil before he betrayed him?

okay, so if he was never a follower of the way why did Jesus pray that HE would not lose him? Why say, I lost none you gave me but one if Judas was never found to begin with?

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

A_Thinker said:
What I think you should rather be looking for is scripture which indicates that spiritual'everlasting life can end ...

huh? How so, we have seen passages that talk about those that have believed unto salvation being thrown into the lake of fire wouldn't that satisfy what you are asking for here?

thesunisout · Jan 30, 2018

Tree of Life said:
"In Christ" in John's gospel can mean "part of the visible body of Christ". Later in John 15 Jesus says that only those who bear fruit prove to be his disciples (John 15:8). So it is possible to be connected to Christ in some way, and yet not truly receiving the life that is in him. It's possible to be part of the visible church (visible body of Christ) and yet not truly be connected to Christ himself.

You can be "in Jesus" in the sense that you are part of the covenant community of Jesus and be an unbeliever.

Yes, those who bear fruit prove to be His disciples. Those are the ones who abide in Christ, because it says that if you abide in Christ you will bear much fruit. If you don't abide, you will cast out as a branch and withered. That is the dichotomy, fruitful and unfruitful believers. Look at the parable of the talents. Some servants bore fruit and some didn't.

You are also altering doctrines by saying unbelievers can be connected to Christ. Unbelievers can't be connected to Christ in any way without faith:

John 3:18

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Unbelievers are condemned and cannot bear any fruit. So that doesn't fit your interpretation of the text. The most natural reading of the text tells us that you can be unfruitful believer who is cut off, not an unfruitful unbeliever, when it is impossible for you to ever bear fruit in the first place.

Tree of Life said:
Many of Jesus' disciples and followers in John's gospel were not true believers. Heck, even many of those "who believed in him" in John's gospel are not true believers. In John, it's possible to "believe in Jesus" in some sense and yet not truly believe in Jesus! Just look at John 8:31-32 -

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

These are Jews who had believed him. And yet a few verses later Jesus says:

44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

These Jews who believe Jesus are "of the devil".

I agree with you, because even the demons believe and tremble and they aren't saved. Yet, Jesus didn't say that to His disciples in John 15; He said they could bear much fruit by abiding in Him. Without saving faith they couldn't do that.

Tree of Life said:
I certainly agree that a person must abide in Christ in order to be saved. A person must not only "believe" at a certain moment in their life. But their faith must endure until the end. They must abide. Scripture makes this plain and it calls the faithful to remain faithful. And these admonishments are very important. We need to hear them so that we will not fall away.

So you agree that there is something we must do, and you are saying it is so we won't fall away. How does that square with your belief that we can't fall away and that there is nothing we can do to "maintain" our salvation. Remember Paul said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Tree of Life said:
But at the same time, God uses these admonishments to make sure that his elect certainly do not fall away. These admonishments effectively call the elect to persevere in their faith and even strengthen their faith. And many times these admonishments are speaking to the whole church which is a mixed group. The church has and will always be (until Jesus returns) a group of professing believers who are a mixture of truly regenerate and not regenerate (Matthew 13:24-30).

I agree that the visible church is composed of believers and unbelievers, but Jesus is clearly addressing His body in John 15 and not unbelievers.

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time, he made you, you didn't make you, but were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

God Bless!

actually I believe it is both but it is not something that the flesh can understand only the spirit.

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Absolutely! Considering Peter said; “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” and then later “Woman, I do not know him.” and after denying the Lord three times, remembers and weeps. How are we any better than "Peter, and on this rock I will build my church"?

How wonderful are the prayers of Christ, "but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

It is interesting, the words "that your faith may not fail", leading me to the thought, despite his denials of Christ, despite his sinful failure, his faith remained intact, and that because of Christ.

it also suggests that it is possible that his faith would not have remained intact....which is the root of the question at hand, is it possible to reject Christ after accepting Him?

BryanJohnMaloney · Jan 30, 2018

"Once saved, always saved" is a mere doctrine of men, based upon the logic of men, and in contradiction to Scripture.

If it were not a false doctrine, then Scripture would not be replete with warnings to the faithful to stay true and hold fast. There would be no instruction to "work out" anything "with fear and trembling", for there would be no work to do. There would be no need to resist any temptation, for no temptation could ever actually tempt any of the saved.

Tree of Life · Jan 30, 2018

razzelflabben said:
okay, so if he was never a follower of the way why did Jesus pray that HE would not lose him? Why say, I lost none you gave me but one if Judas was never found to begin with?

Jesus does not pray that Judas would not be lost. What verses are you referring to again?

razzelflabben · Jan 30, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.
How does a Believer unto the point of Salvation, stop and then reject his Belief?

A person who has become a Believer, and has become Baptized, has become a New Creature, he cannot revert back to his former self because, his old man is DEAD he died to the Flesh, he is now alive to the Spirit, and is alive forever.

first...show me this in scripture...so far no one has been able to show me where the believer losses the right to choose whether to follow or not...second...I don't understand your question. If I have the right to belief of the heart which is a matter of the will, how do I not have the same right of unbelief of the heart, or matter of the will? Belief unto salvation is an act of the will of man. If I can will myself to believe why can't I will myself to no longer believe? Even crucifying self as in becoming a new believer is not a one time act, consider this passage...Romans 7:14-25 just because we are a new creation does not mean that the old man doesn't still call to us to return to our slavery to sin and death.

Cat Loaf You · Jan 30, 2018

razzelflabben said:
but isn't that the point? Both God and His Love are just and it is not just to remove someone's God given choice is it? If not just why would God who is just, remove that right?

If you are born again you are purchased by God for Jesus Christ by his blood , you do not decide now .
When Jesus says nobody is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand that include yourself even if you tried .

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

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