"Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..." Predestination and free will...?"

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2018

Do you all understand that I am saying that "If we get or are given anything ,any or all kind of talent and gifts, it is not due to a choice or decision or choosing or doing on our part... And if it is a gift, then the Father predestined our paths to get it, and there was no choice or choosing involved on our part, then we do not decide in any way at all whether we are gifted or blessed by God, or cursed by God, cause that is predestined or predecided or predictated, by God...

Nor then are we responsible or guilty without choice...

How then, or why then does he predestine some to be cursed...? And some to be blessed, without it being anything at all due to us, or because of any doing on our part...

Why did he make some to be bad then basically...?

God Bless!

Soul-searching · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

For me, faith is a gift given to mankind, all we have to do is accept the gift or not, we have free will, therefore i think faith is a choise, but also a gift. You can have a gift of being amazingly good at writting, playing sports, you name it, but you still choose if you use it, not all who has gifts use them, so i think it´s about choosing a gift or not choosing a gift

sdowney717 · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Do you all understand that I am saying that "If we get or are given anything ,any or all kind of talent and gifts, it is not due to a choice or decision or choosing or doing on our part... And if it is a gift, then the Father predestined our paths to get it, and there was no choice or choosing involved on our part, then we do not decide in any way at all whether we are gifted or blessed by God, or cursed by God, cause that is predestined or predecided or predictated, by God...

Nor then are we responsible or guilty without choice...

How then, or why then does he predestine some to be cursed...? And some to be blessed, without it being anything at all due to us, or because of any doing on our part...

Why did he make some to be bad then basically...?

God Bless!

All are natural born enemies of God, until remade supernaturally to have a new heart.

So can you say that the unsaved are evil because God made them evil?, or are they all just natural born sinners due to having that inborn sinful nature that breaks faith with God and doing righteousness.

About our new covenant, God establishes it by sovereignly writing His laws onto our 'new' heart.
The old covenant, God found fault with the people because they could break His covenant with them, the NC, we can not break as our entire nature has been reprogrammed. with the result, we don't break the covenant as we can not, and if we commit sins, they no longer can break that covenant as God is merciful to our unrighteousness. He grants our repentance and grants to us our faith. Why? because of His love towards us that makes us live.

All faith is a gift given in various measure to all people in His church.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Emmy · Jan 30, 2018

Dear Neogaia 777. Is Faith a choice or a gift? Faith is a choice, but then it is a gift. We ask God for Faith and the we thank God for Faith. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told us: The first and great Commandment is LOVE, God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 7: 7-10: Jesus tells us. The first and great Commandment is: LOVE God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it> love thy neighbour as thy self. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. The Bible tells us; love God and love each other, Love is what God wants from us. We also want Faith, and faith comes with love always. God is LOVE, and Satan and his followers will run away from all love and faith and compassion. The Bible tells us : give up all selfish wishes and desire, ask God for Love and Compassion, and God will give what we ask for. We also ask for Faith. Faith will always follow us, whatever we do, or say. Faith is a gift, but we MUST ask for it. Faith and Love will always go together. Let us be the sons and daughters which God wants, and Faith will always be with us. Ask and we shall receive. Faith and Love go together, God is Love, and Love is all around us, PLUS FAITH. Faith is a gift, but we must ask for it. I say this with love, Neogaia. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2018

If a gift requires nothing on our part, then it is not a choice, cause even a choice, a decision, or even the thoughts you have in your head, had nothing to do with your being blessed or cursed...

If a gift requires nothing on our part, then it is not a choice "because" it requires nothing on our part...

thesunisout · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Faith is a gift, and you can also refuse a gift. You don't become a robot by believing. We have to consider this scripture, first of all:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Despite God not being willing that any should perish, many do. I don't understand how predestination and this scripture interact. We don't know why God chooses one and not the other. I could speculate and say that He chooses the ones who He knows will choose Him. There are some scriptures people could bring up that might dispute that as well. But this scripture gives me comfort, that God doesn't desire that any should perish. In that sense, we see that man must open the gift that God is giving him.

sdowney717 · Jan 30, 2018

thesunisout said:
Faith is a gift, and you can also refuse a gift. You don't become a robot by believing. We have to consider this scripture, first of all:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Despite God not being willing that any should perish, many do. I don't understand how predestination and this scripture interact. We don't know why God chooses one and not the other. I could speculate and say that He chooses the ones who He knows will choose Him. There are some scriptures people could bring up that might dispute that as well. But this scripture gives me comfort, that God doesn't desire that any should perish. In that sense, we see that man must open the gift that God is giving him.

Taken out of the scriptural paragraph, that verse does say such, but when read as part of Peter's message, this is being spoken of the beloved elect who will believe in Christ. Really to whom is Peter writing his epistle, the unbelieving world?, no.

For more confirmation, this applies to the Lost sheep, who Christ finds and rescues, the God is not willing any of the lost sheep perish, but that all of them live.

Matthew 18:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

The principle example is that all the lost sheep are found, none of them are lost.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

They are sheep if God says they are sheep. The sheep are those God gives to Christ, and some sheep wander!
1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

verse 24, says this is for the sheep, that He bore our sins that we would live. Our sins refers to those who believe, so the limited atonement for believers to live to God in the SPirit, and this does not work for them of the world who perish.

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2018

Do you understand that if there is no choice, there is no personal accountability or responsibility for anything, it would mean disaster and possibly war with God for some of us... There has to be some choice, but if there is, it means "something" has to be done on our part, either a choice or something...

What has to be done on our part if there is choice and is something to be done on our part...?

God Bless!

Wordkeeper · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Do you all understand that I am saying that "If we get or are given anything ,any or all kind of talent and gifts, it is not due to a choice or decision or choosing or doing on our part... And if it is a gift, then the Father predestined our paths to get it, and there was no choice or choosing involved on our part, then we do not decide in any way at all whether we are gifted or blessed by God, or cursed by God, cause that is predestined or predecided or predictated, by God...

Nor then are we responsible or guilty without choice...

How then, or why then does he predestine some to be cursed...? And some to be blessed, without it being anything at all due to us, or because of any doing on our part...

Why did he make some to be bad then basically...?

God Bless!

He doesn't.

Cat Loaf You · Jan 30, 2018

You have free will but you are elected to be born . Many times God choose to open or close womb in Bible .

Myychael · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

dqhall · Jan 30, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Do you understand that if there is no choice, there is no personal accountability or responsibility for anything, it would mean disaster and possibly war with God for some of us... There has to be some choice, but if there is, it means "something" has to be done on our part, either a choice or something...

What has to be done on our part if there is choice and is something to be done on our part...?

God Bless!

God may choose to warn one person of danger, but not another.
God my give a blessing to a person in a day, but that may constitute an agreement to help a person forever.

I may read and understand an article about the dangers of investing in bitcoin, but another may not, even though the article was available to anyone who could find it on the Internet. Bitcoin was one of the worse speculative bubbles in the history of investing.

Matthew 13:15 (WEB) 'For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and should turn again; and I would heal them.'

While the Bible is not perfect, some have found a better way by carefully studying its pages and finding its better teachings.

Blade · Jan 30, 2018

I like Psa 8. I know its about Christ but.. what is man that you are mindful of Him. "predestined" you know I can see it... I can understand what our brother Paul by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit said...yet lol I can't. There are just to many times God asks things that.. shouldn't He know that? He came to see if the cries He heard were? He askes Adam..where are you, who told you.. Cain.. wheres your brother. Why is his blood crying from the ground? Yes we hear God was testing them or whatever.

For me... I see my Father...and what He asks me SO many times is "what can you believe"? Its like He comes in and.. you can see FOREVER..theres no end...it NEVER EVER EVER EVER ENDS! Whatever I surdender..give up.. He gives back a BILLION TIMES better!

So this "Faith" its says given. So now what I do with it is up to me. If this life is an AWFUL shadow of where our Father is from. Then in this world, we have to work at things to make them better. Faith for me is no different.

Simon_Templar · Jan 30, 2018

Looking at the question from the perspective of logic, the fundamental consideration is the law of non-contradiction.

A thing cannot both be A and not A at the same time, in the same sense.
The first consideration is the idea that choice and gift are mutually exclusive. Is this actually true? Does something being a choice exclude that it might also be a gift? I'm not sure that this is true. Is it possible, for example, that you might choose to receive a gift, or not to receive a gift? I would say that is possible.

If the two are not contradictory or mutually exclusive then there is no reason it can't be both.

The second consideration is, if you believe they are mutually exclusive, is it possible that it could be both but in different senses. In one sense it is a gift, but in a different sense it is a choice. Is that possible?

Randy777 · Jan 31, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

I think I have freewill. I believe God knows the hearts of people and responds to their faith.
That God seeks and it is with the help of the Spirit of God that we come to Christ.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

The Spirit bares witness "Listen and learns" does not mean to me predestined to be saved but does show God actively involved in our salvation. A loving God.

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 31, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Faith is a gift because God is initiating personal outreach to human beings. They are not initiating an outreach to God. It’s a choice because you have to respond.
Although God does go out on special missions for a few individuals. The general predestination is referring to salvation coming to the nations via the second covenant as opposed to the first.

Neogaia777 · Jan 31, 2018

Simon_Templar said:
Looking at the question from the perspective of logic, the fundamental consideration is the law of non-contradiction.

A thing cannot both be A and not A at the same time, in the same sense.
The first consideration is the idea that choice and gift are mutually exclusive. Is this actually true? Does something being a choice exclude that it might also be a gift? I'm not sure that this is true. Is it possible, for example, that you might choose to receive a gift, or not to receive a gift? I would say that is possible.

If the two are not contradictory or mutually exclusive then there is no reason it can't be both.

The second consideration is, if you believe they are mutually exclusive, is it possible that it could be both but in different senses. In one sense it is a gift, but in a different sense it is a choice. Is that possible?

That's kinda what I'm asking and wondering...?

Some things are predestined though, which brings in how much accountability factor on our part, which is what I don't like, especially if all is predestined...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 31, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Faith is a gift because God is initiating personal outreach to human beings. They are not initiating an outreach to God. It’s a choice because you have respond.

Respond how...?

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 31, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Respond how...?

Respond by accepting or rejecting the outreach.

Neogaia777 · Feb 1, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Respond by accepting or rejecting the outreach.

The outreach of what...?

"Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..." Predestination and free will...?"

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