"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Tree of Life said:

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

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We are kept by the power of God "THROUGH FAITH".

Jesus asked some "where is your faith"

and we do not depart from God through works but rather through an evil heart of unbelief

Hebrews 3:12-14 KJV)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

This is as clear as a day in the light of Christ.

and God says

2 Chronicles 15:2
"... The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Tree of Life said:

They may not come out and say it and they may not even think it in their hearts. But I think it is implicit in their view. I just remember asking an Arminian pastor friend the simple question: "Why did you choose Jesus and someone else who had the same opportunity didn't?" He really didn't know how to answer. If the decision does not depend on God then it must in some way depend upon us. There must be some virtue in us that distinguishes us from those who reject Jesus.

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Essentially I agree, and usually the answer is some version of "foreseen faith", but the question still remains. The problem for many I think, is they have never given much thought to it because they do not think of themselves as any better than the person who resists. It is definitely a problem for their view, and free will doesn't solve it, only compounds it further.

Tree of Life said:

I agree. And faith is a gift of God! (Ephesians 2:8-10)

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Yes, but the seed is the free gift as we receive the seed our faith in His life is saving faith and then the grace of God gives us the new birth. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. For by grace are we saved through faith.

and still Jesus calls it "your faith". He doesn't say where is my faith that I force you to have

Matthew 9:29
"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you."

Luke 8:25
"And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him."

Romans 1:8
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

1 Corinthians 2:5
"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

2 Corinthians 1:24
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand."

Ephesians 1:15
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,"

and some are weak in faith. But God is never weak

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."

Tree of Life said:

I agree. And faith is a gift of God! (Ephesians 2:8-10)

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If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time, he made you, you didn't make you, but were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

God Bless!

Tree of Life said:

MacArthur's statement is that if it is possible to lose salvation, then we certainly would lose it. The implied premise is that our hearts are so sinful and we are so prone to wander that if any part of our salvation depended upon us then we would surely lose it.

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Absolutely! Considering Peter said; “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” and then later “Woman, I do not know him.” and after denying the Lord three times, remembers and weeps. How are we any better than "Peter, and on this rock I will build my church"?

How wonderful are the prayers of Christ, "but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

It is interesting, the words "that your faith may not fail", leading me to the thought, despite his denials of Christ, despite his sinful failure, his faith remained intact, and that because of Christ.

Tree of Life said:

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

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No, the height of arrogance is to claim that you can keep on sinning and you won't lose your salvation.

"If you could lose your salvation", by sinning you mean...?

Oldmantook said:

No, the height of arrogance is to claim that you can keep on sinning and you won't lose your salvation.

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God can judge that, and the heart... and if you cannot, maybe you should stay out of it/that, till you learn or something...

God Bless!

Oldmantook said:

No, the height of arrogance is to claim that you can keep on sinning and you won't lose your salvation.

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Except it turns out to be the height of shame and regret and misery which leads to repentance, evidence of salvation. Seems we all get a turn at being sifted like wheat.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Except it turns out to be the height of shame and regret and misery which leads to repentance, evidence of salvation. Seems we all get a turn at being sifted like wheat.

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Is this a lifelong thing...?

Tree of Life said:

Does it mean losing your salvation? Jesus said in John 15 "I am the vine, you are the branches." If there are any branches in him which do not bear fruit, God will cut them off. It's exegetically possible that this is a reference to losing salvation. But is it exegetically certain? It could also be a reference to the visible body of Christ - the church. God cuts off unfruitful members of the church. This does not mean that they've lost their salvation (as they never had it to begin with), but that God purifies his church and works to remove false believers and apostates.

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I don't think it could be a reference to unbelievers that look like Christians since Jesus is clear who the branches are. First we see the branches that are cut off are in Christ:

John 15:1

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit

Jesus says every branch "in Him" that doesn't bear fruit God takes away. You can't be in Jesus as an unbeliever. If there are any further doubts about who the branches are, Jesus makes it crystal clear:

John 15:5

I am the vine, you are the branches.

This is the Olivet discourse; He isn't talking to anyone but His disciples. The branches are disciples of Christ, not unbelievers that appear to be Christians.

We also see the same language being used regarding the cut off branches and the wicked being gathered:

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13:40

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Tree of Life said:

Why would God cast you out? Why would he keep you in? Doesn't that depend on you?

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John 15:5

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

Do you agree that we must abide in Christ? This is what the scripture is saying, that there is something we must do; we must abide. Please answer this question.

God responds to our abiding by purging us so that we may bear more fruit. If we won't abide then we will eventually be punished by being cast out. It isn't something that depends on me; I can't cast myself out anymore than I can graft myself in. I open myself to be cast out by not abiding according to the scripture. This puts my salvation in jeopardy, but God is in charge of that. He doesn't have to cast us out immediately. A weaker Christian may get 1000 chances whereas one with more light may only get 500. God makes the final decision, not me.

Neogaia777 said:

"If you could lose your salvation", by sinning you mean...?

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Cause if your saying you can, by sinning, then you are also saying there is sin God is incapable of forgiving...? What is required for God to forgive it though...? Only Christ...

Should, or can, we continue in sin then, or should we just give up and continue in sin, as far as sin is concerned...? God forbid! (btw there is a difference between the latter and the former that God knows) Anyway, if anything is required on our part, God knows and we have to get it directly from him... But, as far as one of us telling about another person, I don't know...?

Neogaia777 said:

If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time, he made you, you didn't make you, but were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

God Bless!

Click to expand...

heres a few verses

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Neogaia777 said:

If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time, he made you, you didn't make you, but were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

God Bless!

Click to expand...

heres a few verses to consider

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Neogaia777 said:

Is this a lifelong thing...?

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It is different after regeneration, temptation is lifelong, spiritual warfare is lifelong, fighting the good fight is lifelong, but I have a bit of uncertainty, maybe I'll know before my last breath.

Neogaia777 said:

God can judge that, and the heart... and if you cannot, maybe you should stay out of it/that, till you learn or something...

God Bless!

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Gee..it's sounds like you're judging me...the very thing that you condemn.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Except it turns out to be the height of shame and regret and misery which leads to repentance, evidence of salvation. Seems we all get a turn at being sifted like wheat.

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That is likely true; however all do not choose to repent.