Matthew 24, The Preterist Double Standard?

klutedavid · Jan 28, 2018

Hello Truth7t7.

You said.

The abomination of desolation, great tribulation, and second advent are future events unfulfilled, tied together in a sequence inseparable.

In Matthew's gospel, yes, yes, yes, they appear to be.

In Luke's gospel, no, yes, yes, greater clarity.

Two events, the end times of Israel, the end times of the world.

Truth7t7 · Jan 28, 2018

Klute the Abomination of Desolation in verse 15 causes the inhabitants to flee to the mountains, that causes the great tribulation in verse 21?

Do you deny this?

Klute verse 29-30 immediately after the tribulation of those days will see the "second advent" of Jesus Christ?

Do you deny this truth?

Do you believe you can separate these events by hundreds, thousands of years in time?

Matthew 24:15-31King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

klutedavid said:
Good post.

It escapes me why they prefer Matthew over Luke?

Truth7t7 · Jan 28, 2018

klutedavid said:
Hello Truth7t7.

You said.

In Matthew's gospel, yes, yes, yes, they appear to be.

In Luke's gospel, no, yes, yes, greater clarity.

Two events, the end times of Israel, the end times of the world.

The end time of Israel has nothing to do with Matthew 24:15-31

Daniel 9:27 in the abomination of desolation will take place and last to the future "consummation" or end of this world.

Abomination, great tribulation, second advent are inseparable.

I don't need to look outside Matthew 24:15-31 to interpret the afore mentioned.

66-70AD fulfillment is error, these are future events, inseparable.

Verse 15 causes Verse 21 to take place, as verses 29-30 will take place after the event in verse 21

A simple no brainer, if your not trying to breathe air in a dead horse named "Preterism"

Thanks for the response!

jgr · Jan 28, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You state in your previous post below that Clement wasn't the heretic.

Then we move to Haggee, the terms enemy, impostor, vile, are used?

Then you refer myself to turn Hager on TV and fall to my knees, then you imply sarcastic truth isn't found in Hagee and state I'm a purer source than the afore mentioned

As you call me enemy, impostor, vile?

Please explains your post, so I And the readers can better understand?

Truth7t7, have you read post #16? Do you understand what it says? Tell me what you think it says.

jgr · Jan 28, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You state in your previous post below that Clement wasn't the heretic.

Then we move to Haggee, the terms enemy, impostor, vile, are used?

Then you refer myself to turn Hager on TV and fall to my knees, then you imply sarcastic truth isn't found in Hagee and state I'm a purer source than the afore mentioned

As you call me enemy, impostor, vile?

Please explains your post, so I And the readers can better understand?

Look, let's just back up to post #9. Disregard everything in between that and this.

Do you consider Clement to be a complete heretic?

Truth7t7 · Jan 28, 2018

jgr said:
Look, let's just back up to post #9. Disregard everything in between that and this.

Do you consider Clement to be a complete heretic?

I consider Clement to be distant from the truth, and close to philosophy of men.

jgr · Jan 28, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
I consider Clement to be distant from the truth, and close to philosophy of men.

OK. Do you consider his view on the posted portion of Matthew 24 to be invalid?

Truth7t7 · Jan 28, 2018

jgr said:
OK. Do you consider his view on the posted portion of Matthew 24 to be invalid?

"Yes" his teaching is invalid, it the light of scriptural truth.

The Roman destruction in 66-70AD did not bring fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-21

Daniels abomination of desolation Daniel 9:27 will be present to the "consummation" end of the world.

The 66-70AD destruction didn't see the "consummation" of the world.

jgr · Jan 29, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
"Yes" his teaching is invalid, it the light of scriptural truth.

The Roman destruction in 66-70AD did not bring fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-21

So the tally is: eight for the historical view, three for the future view. If you think Clement and Eusebius should be omitted, that leaves six for historical and three for future. Thus historical was the prevailing view up to the 19th century.

Truth7t7 · Jan 29, 2018

You can remove Chrysostom, that quote doesn't come close to a statement for 66-70AD fulfillment.

He's quoting the verses.

jgr I quote ECF'S to shed a little light, the scripture in Matthew 24:15-31 speaks for itself.

Does verse 15 "abomination" cause verse 21 "great tribulation" to happen, 100% yes.

Then we move to verse 29 "immediately after the tribulation of "Those Days" They shall see the Son Of Man coming.

1+1+1=3 future events that are tied together by "Those Day's" can't be separated.

You deny the second advent is seen in verses 29-30, we disagree.

375AD John Chrysostom

Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)

jgr said:
So the tally is: eight for the historical view, three for the future view. If you think Clement and Eusebius should be omitted, that leaves six for historical and three for future. Thus historical was the prevailing view up to the 19th century.

jgr · Jan 29, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You can remove Chrysostom, that quote doesn't come close to a statement for 66-70AD fulfillment.

He's quoting the verses.

jgr I quote ECF'S to shed a little light, the scripture in Matthew 24:15-31 speaks for itself.

Does verse 15 "abomination" cause verse 21 "great tribulation" to happen, 100% yes.

Then we move to verse 29 "immediately after the tribulation of "Those Days" They shall see the Son Of Man coming.

1+1+1=3 future events that are tied together by "Those Day's" can't be separated.

You deny the second advent is seen in verses 29-30, we disagree.

375AD John Chrysostom

Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)

Chrysostom stays.

375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by" abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation." (Of Matthew 24:1,2)

Still six to three.

parousia70 · Jan 29, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
The preterist denies the literal second advent is seen, they remove literal human eyes watching Jesus coming in the clouds.

Preterists remove nothing here... it is the futurist that ADDS to the text that which is not taught.
Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutly ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the OT teaching when we find it in the NT. ZERO. Yet you are doing exactly that!

I have asked and asked and asked (and asked) you to show the scriptural instruction you have for ignoring and omitting the OT langauge of Cloud comings and you have yet to respond with anything... not even a quark.
WHY? Can you?

Jesus isn't literally seen coming in a cloud, and human eyes aren't seeing this heavenly return.

EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THAT YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

NOR HERE

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

The Preterist Double Standard, From Literal To Symbolic In The Blink Of An Eye.

Cmon, T7, be honest.
You accuse the preterist of doing the same thing you clearly are doing, going from symbolic to literal in absense of any scriptural instruction to do so.

Tell us, why DO YOU BELIEVE AND TEACH that the OT cloud comings of God are Symbolic and not literal physical appearances of God thet way the Prophets describe them?

Give us your assessment of this passage please:
After David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Do you believe these things LITERALLY happened?

Did God come down to earth at that time, visibly seen upon a cherub, riding a cloud, shooting actual arrows at Saul's armies, bowing the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare, as He kindled fire with the breath of His nostrils?

Jesus Christ Is Lord.

Truth7t7

On that we agree 100%!

parousia70 · Jan 29, 2018

Which "Coming of the Lord" do Futurists Claim this passage fortells?
Past or Future?

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

EVERY Futurist I know holds to a PRETERIST view of this passage.
Even though they can not demonstrate HOW the Lord "CAME" and did these things, they all believe He did.
How about you?

DavidPT · Jan 29, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Why fret over it? Everyone knows the truth here, except the few. Its not like they are even close to understanding, so its kinda a waste. People that are close on things I can go back and forth with, like us, we are close on most things. I will not even attempt to debate with a preterist. Its their business, let them believe as they wish.

I don't care to debate with Preterists either. Big waste of time IMO. I think I dislike Preterist theology worse than I dislike PreTrib theology. That's saying something right there.

DavidPT · Jan 29, 2018

parousia70 said:
Which "Coming of the Lord" do Futurists Claim this passage fortells?
Past or Future?

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

EVERY Futurist I know holds to a PRETERIST view of this passage.
How about you?

By Preterist though, I take it to mean one who is interpreting most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled having mainly to do with 70 AD, and who take the Discourse to be meaning only relevant to the first century and deny that the 2nd coming can be found in the Discourse. That's who I see it being a big waste of time debating.

parousia70 · Jan 29, 2018

DavidPT said:
By Preterist though, I take it to mean one who is interpreting most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled having mainly to do with 70 AD, and who take the Discourse to be meaning only relevant to the first century and deny that the 2nd coming can be found in the Discourse. That's who I see it being a big waste of time debating.

Ok, that's all well and good... but you quoted my post specifically asking about Matthew 21:40-45

Do you believe THAT passage referrs to an event on our future or an event in our past?
Do you believe that particular "Coming of the Lord to destroy those wicked men" already happened, or are we still waiting for it?

parousia70 · Jan 29, 2018

DavidPT said:
I don't care to debate with Preterists either. Big waste of time IMO. I think I dislike Preterist theology worse than I dislike PreTrib theology. That's saying something right there.

Well, until you come to grips with our own preterist tendencies, you'll probably continue to publicly dislike preterist eschatology, as it is often a reflexive defense mechanism that many futurists who wont admit to theor own preterism, instinctively use.

Once you come to realize and accept that all christians are preterist, and we only vary by degree, you'll probably find yourself less and less bothered by preterism in general.

Anto9us · Jan 29, 2018

Yes - some need to GET IN TOUCH WITH THEIR INNER PRETERIST !!

Truth7t7 · Jan 29, 2018

parousia70 said:
Preterists remove nothing here... it is the futurist that ADDS to the text that which is not taught.
Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutly ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the OT teaching when we find it in the NT. ZERO. Yet you are doing exactly that!

I have asked and asked and asked (and asked) you to show the scriptural instruction you have for ignoring and omitting the OT langauge of Cloud comings and you have yet to respond with anything... not even a quark.
WHY? Can you?

EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THAT YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

NOR HERE

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Cmon, T7, be honest.
You accuse the preterist of doing the same thing you clearly are doing, going from symbolic to literal in absense of any scriptural instruction to do so.

Tell us, why DO YOU BELIEVE AND TEACH that the OT cloud comings of God are Symbolic and not literal physical appearances of God thet way the Prophets describe them?

Give us your assessment of this passage please:
After David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Do you believe these things LITERALLY happened?

Did God come down to earth at that time, visibly seen upon a cherub, riding a cloud, shooting actual arrows at Saul's armies, bowing the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare, as He kindled fire with the breath of His nostrils?

On that we agree 100%!

From literal to symbolic in the blink of an eye.

Of course Matthew 24:29-31 is the second advent, the whole chapter is dedicated to this event.

Denying this second advent is seen, would be like sailing in the ocean, and stating there is no water under your boat.

Truth7t7 · Jan 29, 2018

parousia70 said:
Well, until you come to grips with our own preterist tendencies, you'll probably continue to publicly dislike preterist eschatology, as it is often a reflexive defense mechanism that many futurists who wont admit to theor own preterism, instinctively use.

Once you come to realize and accept that all christians are preterist, and we only vary by degree, you'll probably find yourself less and less bothered by preterism in general.

One thing I do know, The Abomination Of Desolation, Great Tribulation, And Second Advent, are unfulfilled future events.

Matthew 24, The Preterist Double Standard?

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