When Rome Fell

dqhall

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When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths people were concerned that it would be the end of Christianity. Since the time of Constantine, nearly 150 years earlier, Christianity had become so connected to the Roman Empire that it became difficult to imagine its existence without the empire. Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.

This is an example of some of the negative side effects of aligning the Kingdom of Jesus too closely with any man made kingdom of this world. All of them will be shaken and pass away, but the Kingdom of Jesus will remain.

Is this a lesson from history that would be useful to the American church today? Why or why not?
Even before Christianity was legal in Rome, there was a church building at Duro Europas near the border of the Parthian empire in what is now Syria. Since then Christianity has spread to five continents. These days the World Wide Web shortens distances between nations. News may travel fast without border guards or passport control to impede progress. Jesus taught wherever two or more were gathered in his name there God would be. Peter and Paul did not need purple vestments and silver chalices, but only the Holy Spirit.
 
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Tom 1

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Are these two things in conflict - being American and being biblically centered?

I don’t know if any studies have been done on this but it seems pretty self evident, and I think you are right in thinking if I’ve understood your point, that the culture and thinking of any country will affect the culture and thinking of any churches in that country. I suppose the important thing is to be aware of that and try to filter out what are biblical teachings and what aren’t. Looking from the outside for example, there appear to be connections made between the gun culture in the US and Christianity, in some churches, as if the two go together. The polite and accommodating nature of British society appears to be what makes the CofE so infuriatingly PC at times. I think you could probably pick out something that characterises the influence of society on Church culture in any country. Maybe this is where the churches with the oldest traditions have an advantage? Just an idea.
 
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tz620q

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At this time (since 1871) it is a corporation doing business as The U.S.A., not a constitutional republic.
That's why we have a military flag and the UCC in our courtrooms, plus fraudulent and coerced adhesion contracts to gain jurisdiction.
Rick, I am curious about what you are stating above. What is the significance of 1871 to the USA? Was it the arrest of Brigham Young for polygamy? the Ku Klux Klan Act that allowed government enforcement of the 14th amendment? or the establishment of a uni-gov over the District of Columbia instead of the city government of Washington and Georgetown being separate? If it is the last one, the original Constitution of the United States established the seat of federal government in D.C. irregardless of local government's form.
 
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Tolworth John

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Is this a lesson from history that would be useful to the American church today

History teaches that it isn't big organisations that cause change, but the actions of motivated people.

If Christians really lived their faith, what impact would they have?
 
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tz620q

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History teaches that it isn't big organisations that cause change, but the actions of motivated people.

If Christians really lived their faith, what impact would they have?
I agree with you; but often organisations can coalesce and motivate people to form a unified action that individuals would be incapable of alone. Now if Christians lived their faith, then that could be the unifying principle of the group; but I don't think this negates the value of an organisation.
 
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Tolworth John

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I agree with you; but often organisations can coalesce and motivate people to form a unified action that individuals would be incapable of alone. Now if Christians lived their faith, then that could be the unifying principle of the group; but I don't think this negates the value of an organisation.

Yes an organisation can help, provide guidance, support etc etc, but is nothing without motivated grassroot believers.
 
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tz620q

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Yes an organisation can help, provide guidance, support etc etc, but is nothing without motivated grassroot believers.
How true! I wonder if we can say the organisation is like the skeleton, while the faith is like the lifeblood.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths people were concerned that it would be the end of Christianity. Since the time of Constantine, nearly 150 years earlier, Christianity had become so connected to the Roman Empire that it became difficult to imagine its existence without the empire. Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.
Funny thing you mention "Constantine" (I'll get to that mistake, later), but the Empire of Constantine didn't think Rome was important. Rome had become a backwater relic of a town. The real Empire and the real City were to the east, Constantinople. When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths, only some locals thought it was the end of the Church. The majority of Christians at the time did not believe this. They still had Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, Cyprus, etc.

Constantine co-issued the Edict of Milan. It did not grant special status to Christianity. Instead, it legalized Christianity along with all other religions in the Empire. Christianity was given no special status. That actually happened decades later, under Theodosius I.

However, in any case, the sacking of Rome by Visigoths was only a "disaster" for a minority of Christians. The majority of Christians were in the East, and the Visigoths didn't sack the East.
 
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Rick Otto

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Rick, I am curious about what you are stating above. What is the significance of 1871 to the USA? Was it the arrest of Brigham Young for polygamy? the Ku Klux Klan Act that allowed government enforcement of the 14th amendment? or the establishment of a uni-gov over the District of Columbia instead of the city government of Washington and Georgetown being separate? If it is the last one, the original Constitution of the United States established the seat of federal government in D.C. irregardless of local government's form.
A corporation is privately owned and can be bankrupted and sold. And so it has.
The fact that the District of Columbia is an independent city state is as significant as is the fact that so is The Vatican and the City of London.
 
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tz620q

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A corporation is privately owned and can be bankrupted and sold. And so it has.
The fact that the District of Columbia is an independent city state is as significant as is the fact that so is The Vatican and the City of London.
Hmm. I get your point; but I would contend that the Vatican is more of a city-nation than a state. Not sure what this has to do with the fall of Rome; but thanks for teaching me a little about the history of D.C.
 
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Rick Otto

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Hmm. I get your point; but I would contend that the Vatican is more of a city-nation than a state. Not sure what this has to do with the fall of Rome; but thanks for teaching me a little about the history of D.C.
When Rome "fell" a document was forged called The Donation of Constantine. It transferred authority and assets to the pope. That's how popes got in the position of crowning kings at least until Napolean snatched the crown out of the pope's hands and crowned himself.
The treaty of 1213 made the King of England a vassle to the pope.
A lot's been going on behind the curtains.
 
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Athanasius377

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When Rome "fell" a document was forged called The Donation of Constantine. It transferred authority and assets to the pope. That's how popes got in the position of crowning kings at least until Napolean snatched the crown out of the pope's hands and crowned himself.
The treaty of 1213 made the King of England a vassle to the pope.
A lot's been going on behind the curtains.

Yes, the Donation of Constantine was an 8th century forgery among other things gave the Popes' control over a swath of land in Italy which was called the Papal States. The Papal states existed until 1870 when the Papal States were conquered by Victor Emmanuel II in 1870. The document itself was proven to be a fraud in the 15th century by a humanist scholar whose name escapes me at the moment.
 
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tz620q

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Yes, the Donation of Constantine was an 8th century forgery among other things gave the Popes' control over a swath of land in Italy which was called the Papal States. The Papal states existed until 1870 when the Papal States were conquered by Victor Emmanuel II in 1870. The document itself was proven to be a fraud in the 15th century by a humanist scholar whose name escapes me at the moment.
Athanasius, the Donation of Constantine, while false, did not "give" the Catholic Church anything that they did not already possess. The Lateran Palace and St. Peter's Basilica were all truly given to the Roman Church by Constantine. The Donation was an attempt to bolster the claim by providing evidence of something that had already occurred. As far as the Papal States, these were given to the Church by the Donation of Pepin and did not depend on the Donation of Constantine to validate them. Was the forged document used as a part of the argument for the validity of the Papal power? Yes, we have evidence that it was; but most of this comes after the fact of the acquiring the power and land to begin with.
 
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Yes, the Donation of Constantine was an 8th century forgery among other things gave the Popes' control over a swath of land in Italy which was called the Papal States. The Papal states existed until 1870 when the Papal States were conquered by Victor Emmanuel II in 1870. The document itself was proven to be a fraud in the 15th century by a humanist scholar whose name escapes me at the moment.
Right. The Papal states became what we know as Italy AFTER our Civil War.
 
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When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths people were concerned that it would be the end of Christianity. Since the time of Constantine, nearly 150 years earlier, Christianity had become so connected to the Roman Empire that it became difficult to imagine its existence without the empire. Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.

This is an example of some of the negative side effects of aligning the Kingdom of Jesus too closely with any man made kingdom of this world. All of them will be shaken and pass away, but the Kingdom of Jesus will remain.

Is this a lesson from history that would be useful to the American church today? Why or why not?

According to a book I'm reading, the fear wasn't that the end of the Roman Empire meant the end of Christianity, but rather the end of the Roman Empire meant the man of sin (mystery of lawlessness) would be revealed. The Empire was holding it back, until gone.

The early church fathers (Tertullian, CHrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, and others) taught such.
 
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Rick Otto

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According to a book I'm reading, the fear wasn't that the end of the Roman Empire meant the end of Christianity, but rather the end of the Roman Empire meant the man of sin (mystery of lawlessness) would be revealed. The Empire was holding it back, until gone.

The early church fathers (Tertullian, CHrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, and others) taught such.
By "lawlessness" I assume is meant government by fraud and coercion since lawful government is only by consent.
 
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By "lawlessness" I assume is meant government by fraud and coercion since lawful government is only by consent.

I didn't explain it well. Not pagan government alone who tried to rule the world from Babylon, to Medes, Persia, Greece, to Roman Empire, but the fear that that would arise out from within the temple of God (the church, the body of Christ). The idea was that the Roman Empire "held back" the man of sin, the one who exalts himself. Chrysostom and Tertullian and others for example prayed the Empire would remain. Caesar was god, worship him if you're not a believer, but he's outside Christianity. So when the Empire fell, the vacuum opened for another system already in place to take over.

So, the comment was there was a fear that Christianity would fail if Rome fell, but that isn't necessarily the whole story. The church fathers prayed Rome/Caesar would remain to withhold (hold back) the man of sin. Christianity was subject to the government. Paul said pray for the rulers. Those fathers feared, however, that what was outside would come inside (already at work Paul said) as the man of sin (son of perdition) grew into power to rule kings and others. Take over the world. It wasn't Caesar who would be the problem.
 
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I didn't explain it well. Not pagan government alone who tried to rule the world from Babylon, to Medes, Persia, Greece, to Roman Empire, but the fear that that would arise out from within the temple of God (the church, the body of Christ). The idea was that the Roman Empire "held back" the man of sin, the one who exalts himself. Chrysostom and Tertullian and others for example prayed the Empire would remain. Caesar was god, worship him if you're not a believer, but he's outside Christianity. So when the Empire fell, the vacuum opened for another system already in place to take over.

So, the comment was there was a fear that Christianity would fail if Rome fell, but that isn't necessarily the whole story. The church fathers prayed Rome/Caesar would remain to withhold (hold back) the man of sin. Christianity was subject to the government. Paul said pray for the rulers. Those fathers feared, however, that what was outside would come inside (already at work Paul said) as the man of sin (son of perdition) grew into power to rule kings and others. Take over the world. It wasn't Caesar who would be the problem.
Thank you.
 
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