Benny Hinn - True or False

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 26, 2018

Major1 said:
Thank you for that post. It is that I have been doing this for a long time and I have seen the mess's made in the name of religion and faith healers and I am the one left to pick up the pieces of the lives that were destroyed by his fraudulent actions in the precious name of Jesus Christ. He/They collect their "love" offering and head onto a new set of people to be fooled while the people in the community try to explain why momma still has cancer after Mr. Hinn and Mr. Grant prayed for them and declared them to be healed.

Although I stoutly defend the theology of the Charismatic movement, I do fully recognise that there are excesses and malpractices that go on in it. It was never like that in the early stages of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. The problems and excesses have evolved through successive generations who have moved away from the initial values of Pentecostalism. I will use the term "Pentecostal" to describe both movements because the foundation theology is the same. By that I mean, if you combine the Westminster Confession of Faith and the acceptance that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are still available today, then you have the foundations of Pentecostal theology.

But it is not, in my view, the foundational theology that is at fault. It is the way that modern Pentecostals put it into practice, and it is the weird and wacky doctrines they add on to it. This is because in some there is the erroneous belief that being filled with the Spirit means that one can get "further revelation" that "enhances" the Bible. I don't believe that for one minute. I believe that some of the "further revelations" such as what Benny Hinn teaches is just flaky nonsense, believed by gullible people.

From what I read of the history of Pentecostalism and of revivals in general, these have been based on a passion for souls, need for repentance, and holy living. Believers experienced an intense presence of God in their gatherings and services, and this caused sinners to fall down under the conviction of sin, cry out to God for mercy and then get up converted to Christ. It was because of the intense presence of God that the manifestations occurred, like falling down, shaking, laughing, etc. These manifestations occurred in every true revival since the birth of the Church. But it was the intense presence of God first, resulting in the manifestations. The problem with most modern Pentecostals, manifestations are whipped up to try and get the intense presence of God in their meetings. In other words, they are putting the cart before the horse.

I believe that the Pentecostal movement is a backslidden movement and many of the manifestations that are observed are done by people who think it is the thing to be done to be more spiritual. In many areas, the foundational preaching of the gospel, repentance and holiness, has been altered to the teaching that believers must "feel" the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues in order to be saved, everyone must be healed when prayed for otherwise there is something wrong with them such as sin in their lives, and theatrical displays by the preacher to show that he has a special gift from God over and above everyone else. I may be tarring too many people with the same brush, but unfortunately the excesses are mostly seen on TV media. The "silent majority" of genuine Pentecostal believers just quietly get on with it without all this stuff and nonsense and theatrical display to wow the masses.

The greatest evangelists of the 20th Century, who won thousands to Christ in their time, Pentecostal or Evangelical, preached the simple gospel message in their sermons. That's all they did. Because these were men and women of prayer, who had done the hard yards with God in their personal lives (which made them humble people), the Holy Spirit visited their meetings and thousands were saved. You might not agree with Kathryn Khulman, but all she did was preach the simple gospel, never actually prayed for anyone to get healed, yet people got healed in her meetings. What you saw on stage were people coming up to testify to healings already completed. When she touched (not hit or pushed) them they collapsed at the knees and were often lowered to the floor. That is quite different to many in prayer lines who were overbalanced and pushed slightly on their foreheads (which I saw in meetings) so that they fell backwards with straight legs. Kathryn Kuhlman never tried gimmicks or wacky doctrines, she spent hours in prayer for the Holy Spirit to move in her meetings and to save souls. People got healed as a side effect.

Maria Woodworth-etter, a woman evangelist earlier than Khulman, started preaching the gospel before becoming a Pentecostal. She again preached a very simple gospel message in order to get people saved. Spontaneous healings started to happen in her meetings, and people fell down in the Spirit up to a mile from her tent, such was the intensity of the presence of God in her meetings. These were ordinary people who fell on the street, in their homes, and their workplaces. When they got up they reported being transported to heaven, and the majority of the unsaved folk got saved. I believe this to be genuine, because she never encouraged those manifestations, but they happened spontaneously as she preached the simple gospel message.

We don't see these things today in any of our churches because (1) people don't believe they can happen, or (2) the churches that believe in them have backslidden, become prayerless, and lost that initial passion for souls that the early Pentecostals had.

Anyone who honestly views the state of our society and the community around us will agree that we need another genuine revival.

lamb7 · Jan 26, 2018

swordsman1 · Jan 26, 2018

If being 'slain in the Spirit' is supposedly being overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit then why does exactly the same thing occur in other religions? Surely the Holy Spirit cannot be active in those religions too. Seems to me this 'manifestation' is just a fleshly reaction when people get swept up by religious/mystical emotionalism.

lamb7 · Jan 26, 2018

OzSpen · Jan 27, 2018

lismore said:
Hi Oz

Good to meet you! Lismore is a Scottish Island, one of my favourites, perhaps people from there emigrated to Australia! God Bless

lismore,

Great to meet you.

I now checked Wikipedia on Lismore, New South Wales, and this is what I found:

The European history of the city begins in c. 1843: a pastoral run covering an area of 93 square kilometres (36 sq mi) was taken up by Captain Dumaresq at this time covering the Lismore area and was stocked with sheep from the New England area. Ward Stephens took up the run in the same year, but the subtropical climate was unsuited for sheep grazing, so it was eventually abandoned. In January 1845, William and Jane Wilson took it over. The Wilsons were Scottish immigrants, who arrived in New South Wales in May 1833. Mrs. Wilson named the property after the small island of Lismore, one of the Hebrides in Loch Linnhe, Argyleshire (source).

You were spot on in identifying the source of the name Lismore. :bow:

Oz

Major1 · Jan 27, 2018

Oscarr said:
Although I stoutly defend the theology of the Charismatic movement, I do fully recognise that there are excesses and malpractices that go on in it. It was never like that in the early stages of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. The problems and excesses have evolved through successive generations who have moved away from the initial values of Pentecostalism. I will use the term "Pentecostal" to describe both movements because the foundation theology is the same. By that I mean, if you combine the Westminster Confession of Faith and the acceptance that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are still available today, then you have the foundations of Pentecostal theology.

But it is not, in my view, the foundational theology that is at fault. It is the way that modern Pentecostals put it into practice, and it is the weird and wacky doctrines they add on to it. This is because in some there is the erroneous belief that being filled with the Spirit means that one can get "further revelation" that "enhances" the Bible. I don't believe that for one minute. I believe that some of the "further revelations" such as what Benny Hinn teaches is just flaky nonsense, believed by gullible people.

From what I read of the history of Pentecostalism and of revivals in general, these have been based on a passion for souls, need for repentance, and holy living. Believers experienced an intense presence of God in their gatherings and services, and this caused sinners to fall down under the conviction of sin, cry out to God for mercy and then get up converted to Christ. It was because of the intense presence of God that the manifestations occurred, like falling down, shaking, laughing, etc. These manifestations occurred in every true revival since the birth of the Church. But it was the intense presence of God first, resulting in the manifestations. The problem with most modern Pentecostals, manifestations are whipped up to try and get the intense presence of God in their meetings. In other words, they are putting the cart before the horse.

I believe that the Pentecostal movement is a backslidden movement and many of the manifestations that are observed are done by people who think it is the thing to be done to be more spiritual. In many areas, the foundational preaching of the gospel, repentance and holiness, has been altered to the teaching that believers must "feel" the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues in order to be saved, everyone must be healed when prayed for otherwise there is something wrong with them such as sin in their lives, and theatrical displays by the preacher to show that he has a special gift from God over and above everyone else. I may be tarring too many people with the same brush, but unfortunately the excesses are mostly seen on TV media. The "silent majority" of genuine Pentecostal believers just quietly get on with it without all this stuff and nonsense and theatrical display to wow the masses.

The greatest evangelists of the 20th Century, who won thousands to Christ in their time, Pentecostal or Evangelical, preached the simple gospel message in their sermons. That's all they did. Because these were men and women of prayer, who had done the hard yards with God in their personal lives (which made them humble people), the Holy Spirit visited their meetings and thousands were saved. You might not agree with Kathryn Khulman, but all she did was preach the simple gospel, never actually prayed for anyone to get healed, yet people got healed in her meetings. What you saw on stage were people coming up to testify to healings already completed. When she touched (not hit or pushed) them they collapsed at the knees and were often lowered to the floor. That is quite different to many in prayer lines who were overbalanced and pushed slightly on their foreheads (which I saw in meetings) so that they fell backwards with straight legs. Kathryn Kuhlman never tried gimmicks or wacky doctrines, she spent hours in prayer for the Holy Spirit to move in her meetings and to save souls. People got healed as a side effect.

Maria Woodworth-etter, a woman evangelist earlier than Khulman, started preaching the gospel before becoming a Pentecostal. She again preached a very simple gospel message in order to get people saved. Spontaneous healings started to happen in her meetings, and people fell down in the Spirit up to a mile from her tent, such was the intensity of the presence of God in her meetings. These were ordinary people who fell on the street, in their homes, and their workplaces. When they got up they reported being transported to heaven, and the majority of the unsaved folk got saved. I believe this to be genuine, because she never encouraged those manifestations, but they happened spontaneously as she preached the simple gospel message.

We don't see these things today in any of our churches because (1) people don't believe they can happen, or (2) the churches that believe in them have backslidden, become prayerless, and lost that initial passion for souls that the early Pentecostals had.

Anyone who honestly views the state of our society and the community around us will agree that we need another genuine revival.

Again Oscar, I appreciate your sincerity and your loyalty. I am old enough to remember the 40's and 50's. I was raised in the Pentecostal church. I remember the excitement and enthusiasm in very service, and I wish that there was a way to incorporate that into our church's today that are not in the Pentecostal arena..

But then something happened. Certain men were enthralled with their new found fame and FORTUNE and they turned to make religion a business. They were seduced by the world.

Now the question must be asked WHY???

I believe that it is because the first century messianic and apostolic miracles simply are not being performed by Christians today. Those signs and miracles simply were not needed after the Bible was canonized and those "SIGNS" just faded away exactly as 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 said that they would.

But again, around the turn of the century the door was opened by those who realized that men could be manipulated into giving money for healings. They claimed that the "Apostolic Signs" were still active.

May I say to you that IMO not all Pentecostals are characterized by duplicity and extremism, but I think that you will agree that the unscriptural Pentecostal doctrine lends itself to such things.

Those who claim that the apostolic Pentecostal signs have been restored are forced to accept occultic/hypnotic phenomenon such as spirit slaying and drunkenness and soothsaying, which they often call "the word of knowledge, as apostolic signs, or they are forced to exaggerate and prefabricate the alleged signs. This is exactly what we see occurring in the latest manifestation of the latter rain movement, the Laughing Revival. The latter rain movement of the 20th century is literally strewn with the wreckage of spiritual confusion, error, and deception.

Take some time and do a search on one of the most influential centers in early Pentecostal history which was THE CITY OF ZION, founded in 1900 by JOHN ALEXANDER DOWIE (1847-1907).

He claimed that he was Elijah the Restorer, and in 1904 he "told his followers to anticipate the full restoration of apostolic Christianity and revealed that he had been divinely commissioned as the first apostle of a renewed end-times church" (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, p. 249). In the last few years of his life he was accused of sexual irregularities, he suffered a crippling stroke, and his Zion City was declared bankrupt. For six months before his death he lay in a state of total despondency.

The point is that In spite of Dowie's heretical doctrines and unscriptural ministry, he prepared the way for Charles Parham and his equally unscriptural Pentecostalism. The Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements notes that many of the most famous Pentecostal evangelists went out from Zion (p. 368) and dozens of Parham's followers at Zion joined the Assemblies of God at its formation in 1914.
THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM

lamb7 · Jan 27, 2018

Major1 said:
Those who claim that the apostolic Pentecostal signs have been restored are forced to accept occultic/hypnotic phenomenon such as spirit slaying and drunkenness and soothsaying, which they often call "the word of knowledge, as apostolic signs, or they are forced to exaggerate and prefabricate the alleged signs. This is exactly what we see occurring in the latest manifestation of the latter rain movement, the Laughing Revival. The latter rain movement of the 20th century is literally strewn with the wreckage of spiritual confusion, error, and deception.

I never felt comfortable with the term slain or drunk in front of The Holy Spirit's name, seems kinda disrespectful, since murder and drunkenness are sins and to put a sinful title before His Holy name seems wrong. The Holy Spirit is Life, Truth & order, Not death and loss of control. (Yes He helps us to be dead to sin but that is different.)

Major1 · Jan 27, 2018

lamb7 said:
I never felt comfortable with the term slain or drunk in front of The Holy Spirits name, seems kinda disrespectful, since murder and drunkenness are sins and to put a sinful title before His Holy name seems wrong. The Holy Spirit is Life, Truth & order, Not death and loss of control. (Yes He helps us to be dead to sin but that is different.)

I agree.

There is actually NO Scriptures to explain or verify "Slain in the Spirit".
There is no biblical evidence of a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ knocking people down “under the power.”

Observation and experience has show that it is that the believers who fall down like this do so by their own volition because they have been taught this is the thing to do by their church pastor and that it is a legitimate “manifestation of the spirit.”

This is especially the case when it is some well-known Christian personality who lays his or her hands on them or waves at them or blows on them. It seems they do not want to be one of the “unspiritual” ones who does not receive the Lord’s “blessing.”

It is like the phrase of, Monkey see, monkey do!

lamb7 · Jan 27, 2018

Major1 said:
I agree.

There is actually NO Scriptures to explain or verify "Slain in the Spirit".
There is no biblical evidence of a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ knocking people down “under the power.”

Observation and experience has show that it is that the believers who fall down like this do so by their own volition because they have been taught this is the thing to do by their church pastor and that it is a legitimate “manifestation of the spirit.”

This is especially the case when it is some well-known Christian personality who lays his or her hands on them or waves at them or blows on them. It seems they do not want to be one of the “unspiritual” ones who does not receive the Lord’s “blessing.”

It is like the phrase of, Monkey see, monkey do!

Yea I do not not see that either, besides Judas and the guards and the Pharisees falling backward but I am assuming that is not a good thing???

I could see however someone maybe fall forward in worship but not falling to hurt themselves, like facing and kneeling to pray, I do see that in the Bible that people consciously would kneel at the prescience of God. Not falling in a way that is harsh or forceful, but in reverence of God.

1 Chronicles 29:20
Verse Concepts
Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.

Matthew 2:11
Verse Concepts

After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Luke 5:12
Verse Concepts

While He was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man covered with leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Major1 · Jan 27, 2018

lamb7 said:
Yea I never could understand and still do not.....

I could see however someone maybe fall forward in worship but not falling to hurt themselves, like facing and kneeling to pray, I do see that in the Bible that people consciously would kneel at the prescience of God. Not falling in a way that is harsh or forceful, but in reverence of God.

1 Chronicles 29:20
Verse Concepts
Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.

Matthew 2:11
Verse Concepts

After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Luke 5:12
Verse Concepts

While He was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man covered with leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

People who insist that "slain in the spirit" includes "falling backwards" don't know the Scriptures, because no believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob throughout the Scriptures ever "fell backwards" during their worship of Him!

They always "fell forward" onto their faces!

Compare those Scriptures with Matthew 26:36-56.

That is the story of the wicked lost religious leaders coming to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. When Jesus rebuked them and spoke they all fell down BACKWARDS. What is the point??????? They were ALL lost and were enemies of Christ and wanted to kill him.

swordsman1 · Jan 27, 2018

The Holy Spirit would never cause a believer to lose control of themselves when a fruit of the Spirit is self-control.

lamb7 · Jan 27, 2018

Major1 said:
People who insist that "slain in the spirit" includes "falling backwards" don't know the Scriptures, because no believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob throughout the Scriptures ever "fell backwards" during their worship of Him!

They always "fell forward" onto their faces!

Compare those Scriptures with Matthew 26:36-56.

That is the story of the wicked lost religious leaders coming to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. When Jesus rebuked them and spoke they all fell down BACKWARDS. What is the point??????? They were ALL lost and were enemies of Christ and wanted to kill him.

Yes I noticed that too! Forward not backwards.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 27, 2018

Major1 said:
Again Oscar, I appreciate your sincerity and your loyalty. I am old enough to remember the 40's and 50's. I was raised in the Pentecostal church. I remember the excitement and enthusiasm in very service, and I wish that there was a way to incorporate that into our church's today that are not in the Pentecostal arena..

But then something happened. Certain men were enthralled with their new found fame and FORTUNE and they turned to make religion a business. They were seduced by the world.

Now the question must be asked WHY???

I believe that it is because the first century messianic and apostolic miracles simply are not being performed by Christians today. Those signs and miracles simply were not needed after the Bible was canonized and those "SIGNS" just faded away exactly as 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 said that they would.

But again, around the turn of the century the door was opened by those who realized that men could be manipulated into giving money for healings. They claimed that the "Apostolic Signs" were still active.

May I say to you that IMO not all Pentecostals are characterized by duplicity and extremism, but I think that you will agree that the unscriptural Pentecostal doctrine lends itself to such things.

Those who claim that the apostolic Pentecostal signs have been restored are forced to accept occultic/hypnotic phenomenon such as spirit slaying and drunkenness and soothsaying, which they often call "the word of knowledge, as apostolic signs, or they are forced to exaggerate and prefabricate the alleged signs. This is exactly what we see occurring in the latest manifestation of the latter rain movement, the Laughing Revival. The latter rain movement of the 20th century is literally strewn with the wreckage of spiritual confusion, error, and deception.

Take some time and do a search on one of the most influential centers in early Pentecostal history which was THE CITY OF ZION, founded in 1900 by JOHN ALEXANDER DOWIE (1847-1907).

He claimed that he was Elijah the Restorer, and in 1904 he "told his followers to anticipate the full restoration of apostolic Christianity and revealed that he had been divinely commissioned as the first apostle of a renewed end-times church" (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, p. 249). In the last few years of his life he was accused of sexual irregularities, he suffered a crippling stroke, and his Zion City was declared bankrupt. For six months before his death he lay in a state of total despondency.

The point is that In spite of Dowie's heretical doctrines and unscriptural ministry, he prepared the way for Charles Parham and his equally unscriptural Pentecostalism. The Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements notes that many of the most famous Pentecostal evangelists went out from Zion (p. 368) and dozens of Parham's followers at Zion joined the Assemblies of God at its formation in 1914.
THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM

We have already sparred over the cessation/canon issue and come to a stalemate on that issue after weeks of swordfighting. We will have to agree to differ on that point.

Yes, I have read all about Dowie and Zion. Dowie was a sound evangelist before he decided to set up Zion, and things went haywire afterward. It just shows that no one can found a holy city on this world and succeed. And Dowie took authority upon himself that the Scripture doesn't give anyone that right. Jesus gave the disciples authority over sickness and demons, but not over each other or anyone else for that matter. Good Christian leadership is not authoritarian. Sadly, a Charismatic church had an elder like that (it had a board of elders who ran the church) who styled himself as the senior elder who had authority over everyone else. The church lasted around 10 years then had a major split, but not after some good men were rejected because they would not accept this "senior elder's" authority. It was one of the reasons, among others which you have already identified about the Charismatic church, that I left it, and I have not joined one since. I am quite happy with my work with the 30 member "middle of the road" Presbyterian church where I am currently an elder and preacher. But I have retained my Pentecostal theology, and have retained the discipleship teaching concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit that I received in the early 1970s from a very strict, "old school" pastor whose background was Methodist Holiness. Although he became Pentecostal after being totally healed of incurable heart failure (he was sent home from the hospital to die at the age of 40 and lived on until he died in his late 70s and not from heart failure but from Pneumonia), he kept his Holiness theology, and his basic text was Bishop Ryle's "Holiness". Pastor Hunt would never have put up with what you have seen in Charismatic churches, and in the three years I was a member of his church (1970-73) I never saw any of it, and when he ran Easter conventions among the indigenous Maori people, he clamped down on any spooky spiritual stuff. His teaching was that a person who wants to minister in the Holy Spirit needs to be a man of prayer and of the Word. If anyone got up in his church and started spouting wacky stuff, he would tell them in no uncertain terms to sit down. If I got up and sharing anything, I was extra, ultra careful that what I said was Biblical and sound! That was the training that I received from him when I was 22 years old, and that has been the foundation of my Pentecostal experience.

That's why I am not a follower of people like Benny Hinn, and my old pastor would not have been either. In all the three years I spent with Pastor Hunt's church I never saw anyone fall over. Pastor Hunt was a retired dairy farmer, lived in a modest home on a retirement income, plus a very modest income from his church. His son in law is now retired, runs an international ministry, takes no income from it, and also lives in a modest home, and is supported by his retirement pension. Those are the type of people who mentor me. These people the unseen majority of Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors and preachers whom you never see on TV or the media, because there are not scandals attached to them that would make them newsworthy.

It took me around 7 years to forgive some of those people in the Charismatic church I left in 1978. (Not Pastor Hunt's church. I left that to go to my wife's church when I got married). But it was God who worked in me to bring about that forgiveness, because if I was going to have any ministry of Him, I needed to forgive those people. So I did, and in 1995, I went back to that city and visited my friends there and re-established contact. It was a very meaningful spiritual pilgrimage for me.

The last Pentecostal church I visited was one a couple of years ago. In the worship time, the pastor went around whispering in people's ears that Jesus is here. Then he put his hands on folks heads so that they would fall over. He tried very hard with me but I resolutely stayed on my feet, and didn't even shake on demand! I saw a lady writhing around the floor like a snake and I told the pastor that she needed deliverance. He didn't like that very much. I couldn't wait to get out of that church and never went back. It was noticeable that none of the elders or pastor of that church did any of the wacky manifestations. Funny that! Think about the Charismatic church that you went to. Were the leaders and mature men falling over and engaging in wacky stuff? Or was it the less mature younger men and women doing it?

In all my 50 years of church involvement I have been in only two meetings where I knew the Holy Spirit was the intensely. Both were run by Pastor Hunt. The effect was that people broke down and wept their hearts out. Some of the most hardened men wept like babies and got right with God. There were never any who fell over, shook, or engaged in spooky spiritual stuff. They were too busy on their faces weeping before God and getting right with him. When I experienced those two meetings, they spoiled me for everything else.

I could go on, but I have to go. I'm preaching this morning, so I'd better not be late!

Major1 · Jan 27, 2018

swordsman1 said:
The Holy Spirit would never cause a believer to lose control of themselves when a fruit of the Spirit is self-control.

Agreed! The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and the Scriptures tell us that everything must be done in order and decency.

Major1 · Jan 27, 2018

Oscarr said:
We have already sparred over the cessation/canon issue and come to a stalemate on that issue after weeks of swordfighting. We will have to agree to differ on that point.

Yes, I have read all about Dowie and Zion. Dowie was a sound evangelist before he decided to set up Zion, and things went haywire afterward. It just shows that no one can found a holy city on this world and succeed. And Dowie took authority upon himself that the Scripture doesn't give anyone that right. Jesus gave the disciples authority over sickness and demons, but not over each other or anyone else for that matter. Good Christian leadership is not authoritarian. Sadly, a Charismatic church had an elder like that (it had a board of elders who ran the church) who styled himself as the senior elder who had authority over everyone else. The church lasted around 10 years then had a major split, but not after some good men were rejected because they would not accept this "senior elder's" authority. It was one of the reasons, among others which you have already identified about the Charismatic church, that I left it, and I have not joined one since. I am quite happy with my work with the 30 member "middle of the road" Presbyterian church where I am currently an elder and preacher. But I have retained my Pentecostal theology, and have retained the discipleship teaching concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit that I received in the early 1970s from a very strict, "old school" pastor whose background was Methodist Holiness. Although he became Pentecostal after being totally healed of incurable heart failure (he was sent home from the hospital to die at the age of 40 and lived on until he died in his late 70s and not from heart failure but from Pneumonia), he kept his Holiness theology, and his basic text was Bishop Ryle's "Holiness". Pastor Hunt would never have put up with what you have seen in Charismatic churches, and in the three years I was a member of his church (1970-73) I never saw any of it, and when he ran Easter conventions among the indigenous Maori people, he clamped down on any spooky spiritual stuff. His teaching was that a person who wants to minister in the Holy Spirit needs to be a man of prayer and of the Word. If anyone got up in his church and started spouting wacky stuff, he would tell them in no uncertain terms to sit down. If I got up and sharing anything, I was extra, ultra careful that what I said was Biblical and sound! That was the training that I received from him when I was 22 years old, and that has been the foundation of my Pentecostal experience.

That's why I am not a follower of people like Benny Hinn, and my old pastor would not have been either. In all the three years I spent with Pastor Hunt's church I never saw anyone fall over. Pastor Hunt was a retired dairy farmer, lived in a modest home on a retirement income, plus a very modest income from his church. His son in law is now retired, runs an international ministry, takes no income from it, and also lives in a modest home, and is supported by his retirement pension. Those are the type of people who mentor me. These people the unseen majority of Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors and preachers whom you never see on TV or the media, because there are not scandals attached to them that would make them newsworthy.

It took me around 7 years to forgive some of those people in the Charismatic church I left in 1978. (Not Pastor Hunt's church. I left that to go to my wife's church when I got married). But it was God who worked in me to bring about that forgiveness, because if I was going to have any ministry of Him, I needed to forgive those people. So I did, and in 1995, I went back to that city and visited my friends there and re-established contact. It was a very meaningful spiritual pilgrimage for me.

The last Pentecostal church I visited was one a couple of years ago. In the worship time, the pastor went around whispering in people's ears that Jesus is here. Then he put his hands on folks heads so that they would fall over. He tried very hard with me but I resolutely stayed on my feet, and didn't even shake on demand! I saw a lady writhing around the floor like a snake and I told the pastor that she needed deliverance. He didn't like that very much. I couldn't wait to get out of that church and never went back. It was noticeable that none of the elders or pastor of that church did any of the wacky manifestations. Funny that! Think about the Charismatic church that you went to. Were the leaders and mature men falling over and engaging in wacky stuff? Or was it the less mature younger men and women doing it?

In all my 50 years of church involvement I have been in only two meetings where I knew the Holy Spirit was the intensely. Both were run by Pastor Hunt. The effect was that people broke down and wept their hearts out. Some of the most hardened men wept like babies and got right with God. There were never any who fell over, shook, or engaged in spooky spiritual stuff. They were too busy on their faces weeping before God and getting right with him. When I experienced those two meetings, they spoiled me for everything else.

I could go on, but I have to go. I'm preaching this morning, so I'd better not be late!

I as well have been in services where the Holy Spirit moved with great power.
Men and women wept over their sin condition because the preacher called SIN SIN.

What I saw was equal between young and old, men and women. The women uselly were the first ones to speak in tongues and fall down.

The one that stands out in my memory and actually was the one that started me to question what was going on happened when two women probably 40 years old fell in the floor and began to roll around. As they did so, their dresses were bunched up around their waist for all the men to see their underwear and every man including me was only interested in what they could see and not what was being said from the pulpit.

I can only say that it was not the Holy Spirit who was in charge and God did not get the glory and the worst of it was that it happened every single Sunday.

lismore · Jan 28, 2018

OzSpen said:
lismore,

Great to meet you.

I now checked Wikipedia on Lismore, New South Wales, and this is what I found:

The European history of the city begins in c. 1843: a pastoral run covering an area of 93 square kilometres (36 sq mi) was taken up by Captain Dumaresq at this time covering the Lismore area and was stocked with sheep from the New England area. Ward Stephens took up the run in the same year, but the subtropical climate was unsuited for sheep grazing, so it was eventually abandoned. In January 1845, William and Jane Wilson took it over. The Wilsons were Scottish immigrants, who arrived in New South Wales in May 1833. Mrs. Wilson named the property after the small island of Lismore, one of the Hebrides in Loch Linnhe, Argyleshire (source).

You were spot on in identifying the source of the name Lismore.

Oz

Hi Oz!

That is absolutely amazing! Thanks for posting, Lismore is an awesomely beautiful Island, I had no idea there was a namesake in Australia. God Bless You

lismore · Jan 29, 2018

Another Lazarus said:
Benny asks 2.5 million dollar for his luxury life style, why ?

Hello Lazarus. Indeed. The Benny Hinn meeting I attended there was a strong emphasis on money. I did not know at that time that he had a mansion and a jet. The jet thing is hard to work out, if you have to fly why not fly with everyone else? I heard an evangelist's testmimony once that he shared the gospel on commercial flights with the person he was sitting next to, made dozens of converts. God Bless

Major1 · Jan 30, 2018

lismore said:
Hello Lazarus. Indeed. The Benny Hinn meeting I attended there was a strong emphasis on money. I did not know at that time that he had a mansion and a jet. The jet thing is hard to work out, if you have to fly why not fly with everyone else? I heard an evangelist's testmimony once that he shared the gospel on commercial flights with the person he was sitting next to, made dozens of converts. God Bless

Benny Hinn
10 million seaside mansion; a private jet, a Mercedes SUV and convertible, and “layovers” between crusades at the cost of $900 - $3,000 per night at locations including Hawaii, Cancun, London, Milan etc.

lismore · Jan 30, 2018

Major1 said:
Benny Hinn
10 million seaside mansion; a private jet, a Mercedes SUV and convertible, and “layovers” between crusades at the cost of $900 - $3,000 per night at locations including Hawaii, Cancun, London, Milan etc.

Hello Friend. Thanks for your post. It's interesting because there are passages in the NT which suggest that the early church position is for those who are wealthy to give their wealth to the church so that the poor may be blessed.

From time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

"Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The modern church position by and large seems to be that the rich take money from the poor and needy. Confusing eh? God Bless

Major1 · Jan 31, 2018

lismore said:
Hello Friend. Thanks for your post. It's interesting because there are passages in the NT which suggest that the early church position is for those who are wealthy to give their wealth to the church so that the poor may be blessed.

From time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

"Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The modern church position by and large seems to be that the rich take money from the poor and needy. Confusing eh? God Bless

How much time he gains who does not look to see what his neighbour says or does or thinks, but only at what he does himself, to make it just and holy.

Benny Hinn - True or False

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