Saved by Faith or grace?

Bible2+ said:

Note that John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26), and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30), in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

The bread and wine become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1), that is, which is something which God purposely designed so that it cannot be scientifically proven (1 Corinthians 2:11-16), just as Christ's very death and resurrection themselves, the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), cannot be scientifically proven.

Apart from transubstantiation, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

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Note that Romans 8:3 is not (as is sometimes clamed) denying that Jesus Christ is in flesh per se. For the apostle Paul had started out the book of Romans by saying that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). And the whole point of Romans 8:3 is that Jesus was made flesh so that on the Cross sin could be condemned in the flesh (Romans 8:3c; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead, Romans 8:3 is denying that Jesus was sent into the world in "sinful" flesh. For Jesus was without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins, by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

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John 6:63 means that flesh by itself can't give us eternal life. John 6:63b isn't (as is sometimes clamed) contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 doesn't mean "wholly apart from the flesh".

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Your post here is so full of error confusion mix up etc

I have to respond later it’s late here

Bible2+ said:

And Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh.

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All true christians believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh as i also do.

All true Christians believe that God was manifest in the flesh and the Word was made flesh.

All true Christians see Jesus Christ as the last Adam, fully human but without sin.

All true christians believe that they will have a glorified body one day although all true christians are aware that we do not have that glorified body yet but that we wait for the redemption of our bodies.

All true christians with wisdom know that we live in a fallen world and that when Adam sinned death passed upon all men through him and all men have inherited a sinful nature which becomes alive when the law comes to our understanding and we die spiritually (Romans 7:9 KJV). This is when a child has what some call the age of accountability and when they do evil actions. Then "sin revives" or their sin nature and they die and need to be born again.

All true christians understand that we live in a corruptible flesh and our bodies are mortal, not imortal yet.

All true christians know that we won't forever be in this fallen corruptible body but that we shall be changed and into an imortal body, a glorified body forever.

All true christians know that they must bring their bodies into subjection and die daily crucifying the flesh through the power of the Spirit.

All true christians know that they are not in the flesh but in the Spirit as they have God working in them and they walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit.

All true christians are aware of the filthiness of the flesh and spirit and that they must know how to possess their vessel in honour. But they are aware that they have God working in them and so the excellency of the power is of God and not of them.

All true christians deny many of the Gnostic heresies.

All true christians would never worship bread as God or wine as literal blood or drink blood as scripture forbids.

All true christians would not really believe that 1 John 4 is talking about Jesus coming in bread and wine, but rather of jesus Christ coming in the flesh (human flesh) not bread made with man’s hands.

All true christians flee from the idolatry

All true christians who have wisdom understand when jesus said eat my flesh and drink my blood he was not talking about eating his literal flesh and tearing him apart or drinking his literal blood and killing him on the spot. They understand that saying spiritually as eating spiritual meat and drinking spiritual drink. This inward life and gift of Gods seed, word, Light, truth was given through the physical death of jesus Christ on the cross and His literal shed blood, which all the saints come to and believe in.

All true christians who have wisdom understand that Jesus was speaking symbolically many times and about remembrance of him.

All true christians who have wisdom understand the Body of Christ to be the true believers that have Jesus Christ as their head and they being one bread and one body are all partakers of that one bread. They do not neglect the poor and weak in the body and so despise the church and the love and ministry of one another in Christ and the reason for His death and shed blood .

All true christians believe these verses.

1 Corinthians 15:53
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

2 Corinthians 7:1
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Romans 8:23 KJV
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Romans 8:3 KJV
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

2 Corinthians 4:10 KJV
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."

1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Luke 22:19 KJV
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."(remembrance means recollection.)

John 6:63 KJV
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Peter 1:23
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

James 1:18
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures."

James 1:21
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

therefore


Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;"

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:9 10
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

truefiction1 said:

Thanks... I agree. But I was asking the Original Poster, because He seems completely lost as to what "grace" is and what it does. Some are in need of spiritual "milk", not yet able to handle the strong meat of the Gospel, so I was asking him these questions in hope of leading him into discussions that will be of some value to him. However, he seems to have ceased the discussion. I think that something or someone is preventing him from engaging in such talks as could lead to deeper knowledge of the Truth.

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No I was Diwntown minstering in the streets and in fellowships and study with others all day when I have time I will try to answer you many errors

Bible2+ said:

Note that John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26), and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29),

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No the meat Jesus gives is not the meat that men know of, It is not like the manna in the wilderness ( which was physical bread in little bread cakes). It is an inward meat and spiritual. For the flesh profiteth nothing the words that Jesus spoke are spirit and they are life. All believers are born again by the word of God as the seed sown in the heart . Peter calls this being born again by the incorruptible seed by the word of God. James calls this the engrafted word which is able to save the soul. The writer of hebrews calls this word quick (alive) and powerful. Wr read of the word being found and eaten, .

Some verses for your correction

John 4:32
"But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of."

John 6:27
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

If the literal bread God of some was that meat then it would never perish and never digest into their body and come out of him. It would not corrupt or get old etc. But the ones who claim to eat their bread God have to eat this weekly. It perishes in their stomach and out of him. This cannot be the "meat" Jesus speaks of. Th e meat Jesus speaks of was to do the will of the Father.

The meat that endureth is in Christ the word, the seed, the truth and light. All saints of all times have eaten the same "spiritual meat" and spiritual drink as all believers today do.

1 Corinthians 10:3
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

and this supper is inward in the heart.

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

John 15:4
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

Ephesians 3:17
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"

Colossians 3:16
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

the word can be as milk and meat

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

Hebrews 5:13,14 KJV
"13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Jeremiah 15:16
Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

Bible2+ said:

which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30),

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No, it still remains bread and wine and is only a type and figure and remembrance. As Jesus told them as often as they did it in remembrance of him. This was the passover and a type and shadow that was being celebrated in many homes. Jesus simply gave it the spiritual meaning. Just as Jesus could have stood with his disciples while the lamb was sacrificed in the temple and said it was a type of His sacrifice. Or when John the baptist spoke of Jesus a the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Was jesus literally a Lamb?, No John pointed to Jesus as the reality of the lambs that were sacrificed for sin. But today do we need to have a lamb sacrificed as a literal lamb of God for sin? No,

Bible2+ said:

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56)

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No, this is not the meaning. The Lord's body is the body of Christ and Paul said in the previous chapter,

1 Corinthians 10:3,4 17
"And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ....For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

When the church came together they were not in the true communion (or fellowship) in Christ and with one another and some of the poor were being despised and some were getting drunk etc. This was not discerning the body of Christ and how we are all members one of another and should wait for one another and have the same care for each other. They were not doing this and so along with other sins this was not the True Lords supper. They missed the meaning of Christ death on the cross and shed blood and the reality of the church which he purchased by His blood. So they were just going through a motions and form and the meaning and love and reality of the body of Christ was not discerned. And so even the communion was not true and real if their sinning against other parts of the body and making a mockery of the remembrance meal, or if their first of charity and love. They were not truly in common union with some.

Consider

"...The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread....
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.""(1 Cor 10:16,17 ,32)

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not...Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
"(1 Cor 11:19-22,33,-34 KJV)

Bible2+ said:

The bread and wine become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1),

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You try to bring in Hebrews 11 here??

No, this chapter speaks of the mystery in the heart not seen or and things hoped for. It speaks of the reality of the seed or word sown in the heart. faith comes by hearing (spiritual) and hearing by the word of God. To see and hear spiritually is how we can walk in the light. Some are blind in their heart and deaf to the word and are drawn after carnal outward things and the spiritual things they cannot seen. For those who have the true life and inward hope consider,

2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Luke 17:21
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Also Paul does not call the bread the literal flesh or trainsbstantiated flesh etc. He simply says

" The bread which we break..."

Bible2+ said:

Apart from transubstantiation, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

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I showed you the entire context of 1 Cor 10-11, and they were despising the church not discerning the other parts of the Lord's body, and Paul had to remind them that they being many are one bread and one body and all are to be partakers of that one bread. This common union among themselves is their fellowship with one another and the Lord in the spirit. Paul said more about being one body in the spirit in the next chapter,

1 Corinthians 12:12, 13
"12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Many don't discern the Lord's body and so the figures of His body and shed blood in the supper are meaningless if they do not come to the reality of that communion in Christ and with one another through His death and resurrection and His shed blood for believers.

Bible2+ said:

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

This says

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"

again you do not discern spiritual things.

Paul said to the believers

Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Paul had seen that they were crucified with Christ and they were walking in the cross daily and dead to self and the flesh and old man. But the flesh and works of the law came back in and they started by the "hearing" of faith and then went back into the works of the law and the flesh and went away from Christ and from the gospel of the grace of God. This can also relate to many today who have to do ordincances and legal works of the flesh to be saved. As Paul said

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"(Galatians 3:2,3 KJV)

aLso consider the words

"hath been evidently set forth," in Greek means - "to write previously, to announce before ordained, aforetime."

Paul also says a interesting thing at the end about this cross (interestingly add water baptism in place of circumcision and see how similar it sounds, if men add water to salvation or the gospel)

"As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God"

[QUOTE="Bible2+, post: 72269490, member: 380638"Note that Romans 8:3 is not (as is sometimes clamed) denying that Jesus Christ is in flesh per se. For the apostle Paul had started out the book of Romans by saying that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). And the whole point of Romans 8:3 is that Jesus was made flesh so that on the Cross sin could be condemned in the flesh (Romans 8:3c; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead, Romans 8:3 is denying that Jesus was sent into the world in "sinful" flesh. For Jesus was without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

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Jesus Christ came in the flesh, Abd not in bread made with hands). We are told to fire idolatry. But he is called the last Adam also. He is fully human and fully God.

truefiction1 said:

I'm busy with ministry as well, but I didn't ask you to answer any errors. I asked a simple "either/or" question: Is God's power "created", or is Gods power "uncreated energy" (i.e. the Holy Spirit Himself, doing work)?

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I don't like your words "energy" referring to God or anything of His nature. The words trouble me.Its like a fallacy argument.

God has many aspects of His nature and character that are know, His power, love justice, mercy etc. When a person is a new creation in Christ , there is just that, a "new creation". But our spiritual man is alive in Christ, he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit as Paul said

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."

and Jesus Christ is made

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

and the word of God is sick ( alive) and powerful.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

this power is His and part of who God is.

truefiction1 said:

Is the "power of the Spirit", or the being "in the Spirit", or "God's power working in them" Something that is effecting change in the whole created person, body and soul, or just in their spirits?

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Our bodies are sanctified in the sense of being set apart for God to work in us and to bring our bodies into subjection, dead to self, the carnal mind, and works of the flesh and old man. We are to be daily crucified with Christ and risen with Him also to walk in the newness of life.