Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth

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How were Elisha's eyes opened? Or the eyes of the young man? by a power that was created by God, or by God's eternal and uncreated power flowing out of His uncreated essence?
God dwells in the miraculous wonder and he can show many things to His children
 
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God dwells in the miraculous wonder and he can show many things to His children
That doesn't answer the question: By what power are the eyes opened by God? A "created" power, or God's "uncreated power"? What's your answer?
 
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Peter calls such things visions

Acts 11:5
I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:"
Visions... by what power does God give "vision"? Is it by a "created" power or by Gods' "uncreate power"?
 
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Visions... by what power does God give "vision"? Is it by a "created" power or by Gods' "uncreated" power?
Do you have an answer?

Perhaps this may help: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, Who is in you, Whom you have received from God?" (1 Corinthians 6:19)
 
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LoveofTruth

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That doesn't answer the question: By what power are the eyes opened by God? A "created" power, or God's "uncreated power"? What's your answer?
Go ask God how he does miracles....see what he says.
 
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Go ask God how he does miracles....see what he says.
I already did, and received my answer from the Word of God, and so now I know the answer. But before I show you this answer, I'd like to hear yours.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Do you have an answer?

Perhaps this may help: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, Who is in you, Whom you have received from God?" (1 Corinthians 6:19)

Us who are christians learn how to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. We learn how to possess our vessels in honour, having this hope un ourselves we can do all things and bring our body unto subjection

"4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Corinthians 4:7
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

2 Timothy 2:21
"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

John 15:5
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Philippians 4:13 [Full Chapter]
"
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
 
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LoveofTruth

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I already did, and received my answer from the Word of God, and so now I know the answer. But before I show you this answer, I'd like to hear yours.
God does all things in the body of Christ trough the Spirit. God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him isn spirit and in truth

The Old Covenant had carnal ordinances and diverse washings (Baptisms) imposed on them until the time of reformation. They were bound up under the law and shadows and types of the reality.

John 4:24
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Hebrews 9:10
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
 
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Us who are christians learn how to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. We learn how to possess our vessels in honour, having this hope un ourselves we can do all things and bring our body unto subjection

"4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Corinthians 4:7
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

2 Timothy 2:21
"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

John 15:5
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Philippians 4:13 [Full Chapter]
"
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
Aren't all these things accomplished in you by the "Power" of God?

Is this "Power" of God a "created" thing? Or is it rather the "uncreated Power" of God?
 
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LoveofTruth

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I already did, and received my answer from the Word of God, and so now I know the answer. But before I show you this answer, I'd like to hear yours.
To run after carnal things and shadows is to almost deny the reality of the inward life . I would encourage you to hear this scripture.

Hebrews 9:10
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

Paul also said this to the Corinthians

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

they were still carnal in many ways as he said

"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"(1 Cor 3:3-5 KJV)


They were dividing into sects and running after carnal things and talk.

Paul had to define the very gospel to them again in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and also the true one saving baptism into the body of Christ by the Spirit 1 Cor 12:13 as he said,

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
 
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To run after carnal things and shadows is to almost deny the reality of the inward life . I would encourage you to hear this scripture.

Hebrews 9:10
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

Paul also said this to the Corinthians

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

they were still carnal in many ways as he said

"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"(1 Cor 3:3-5 KJV)


They were dividing into sects and running after carnal things and talk.

Paul had to define the very gospel to them again in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and also the true one saving baptism into the body of Christ by the Spirit 1 Cor 12:13 as he said,

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
It's a simple and direct question, deserving of a simple and direct answer. Is God's Power a "created" power or an "uncreated Power"? Are you reluctant to answer it?
 
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LoveofTruth

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It's a simple and direct question, deserving of a simple and direct answer. Is God's Power a "created" power or an "uncreated Power"? Are you reluctant to answer it?
No my computer is glitching

and it seems a fallacy type of question.

God gave the power of the Holy Ghost

Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost."

the power flows from God and is of God and God works in all believers to will and to do, and to make us perfect unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 2:5
"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

and we read of the word

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder ofsoul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

this word is the seed, Christ sown the truth and life.
 
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LoveofTruth

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So the Power of God is God Himself working to cause things to happen, by the Power of the Holy Spirit?
your rambling trying to find some twist to justify your bread god and mystical water in baptism, and sacraments etc
 
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LoveofTruth

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So the Power of God is God Himself working to cause things to happen, by the Power of the Holy Spirit?
the Holy Spirit is God

there is a Tri unity, or Trinity as it is called

One being God revealed in three distinct though not separate persons
 
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your rambling trying to find some twist to justify your bread god and mystical water in baptism, and sacraments etc
Those things are not even in my view at all right now. I'm merely exploring the nature of God's power (the power that is at work making children of God out of those who believe in Christ), whether it is a "created" power or the "uncreated" Divine Power of God Himself.

Can you tell me which it is?
 
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FireDragon76 said in post #269:

This sounds more like Greek thinking about the world. If our salvation can never have anything to do with anything physical, then why did God take on human flesh?

Good point.

And Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism in order to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts, and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
 
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LoveofTruth said in post #302:

I am strongly against your doctrine and sacraments . . .

Note that John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26), and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30), in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

The bread and wine become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1), that is, which is something which God purposely designed so that it cannot be scientifically proven (1 Corinthians 2:11-16), just as Christ's very death and resurrection themselves, the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), cannot be scientifically proven.

Apart from transubstantiation, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #308:

you don't seem to give any interpretation of many scriptures i give you

start with the one

Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Note that Romans 8:3 is not (as is sometimes clamed) denying that Jesus Christ is in flesh per se. For the apostle Paul had started out the book of Romans by saying that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). And the whole point of Romans 8:3 is that Jesus was made flesh so that on the Cross sin could be condemned in the flesh (Romans 8:3c; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead, Romans 8:3 is denying that Jesus was sent into the world in "sinful" flesh. For Jesus was without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins, by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #312:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63 KJV)

John 6:63 means that flesh by itself can't give us eternal life. John 6:63b isn't (as is sometimes clamed) contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 doesn't mean "wholly apart from the flesh".
 
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Note that John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26), and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30), in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

The bread and wine become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1), that is, which is something which God purposely designed so that it cannot be scientifically proven (1 Corinthians 2:11-16), just as Christ's very death and resurrection themselves, the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), cannot be scientifically proven.

Apart from transubstantiation, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

*******



Note that Romans 8:3 is not (as is sometimes clamed) denying that Jesus Christ is in flesh per se. For the apostle Paul had started out the book of Romans by saying that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). And the whole point of Romans 8:3 is that Jesus was made flesh so that on the Cross sin could be condemned in the flesh (Romans 8:3c; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead, Romans 8:3 is denying that Jesus was sent into the world in "sinful" flesh. For Jesus was without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins, by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

*******



John 6:63 means that flesh by itself can't give us eternal life. John 6:63b isn't (as is sometimes clamed) contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 doesn't mean "wholly apart from the flesh".
Ancestral sin is "ontological", not genetic, passed to all because death entered the world when Adam sinned. One is not conceived guilty of sin, but merely brought forth into a fallen existence with a corrupt human nature, which leads them into the committing of sins. A baby is afflicted with a nature suffering from the consequences of sin, and will sin and become guilty of sin as a result, but is not guilty of having committed any sins prior to committing them. The Bible doesn't anywhere teach "original guilt".

Other than this, it is a pretty good posting.
 
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