Saved by Faith or grace?

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

"God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

"There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light." (Matthew 17:2)

What is this "Light", or Who is the "Light"? Is this "Light" a thing? Or is it a Person?

What, or Who, do you say that the "Light" is?

If His "clothes" became as white as the light, were they still just clothes? Or did the clothes contain something, or Someone more?

What say YE? LoveofTruth?

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I simply quote scripture, and you say they are false???

I quoted

"James 1:21
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls"

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:8
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

1 John 3:9
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Romans 1:9
"For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;"

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

yes we bring our bodies into subjection crucified and dead, and then fruit of the spirit can be seen in our lives and actions. But as we read

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not...24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

You cannot put scripture against itself because you don't like the verses. many cults try to do this and instead of dealing with the many verses I give they quote others ones that seem to contradict and they leave it there.

You don't simply quote Scripture. You interpret them first, then post them. But they don't collaborate all of your beliefs. You're misinterpreting them.

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
"grace" means "energies",

not according to Greek it means

"from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy)."

"the word "energy " means -en·er·gy ˈenərjē/ noun

1.
the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity."

God is a personal being, not some active force like some other cults teach. Or in Satanism they teach a god of forces and we read of such in scripture

we read

"36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain."

" In the occultic oriented mystery religious traditions, we find a system of belief known under a variety of names including Pantheism, Spiritism, Theosophy, Freemasonry, and a host of others. Essentially, this worldview claims that God is not a personality as much as a phenomenon. The central idea is expressed in various Eastern religious systems as well as in Gnosticism and even Western philosophy. This doctrine claims that God is a force that is comprised of equal components of good and evil."(CHRISTIAN MEDIA RESEARCH - Newsletter - The God Of Forces)

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
not according to Greek it means

"from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; ; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy)."

"the word "energy " means -en·er·gy ˈenərjē/ noun

1.
the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity."

God is a personal being, not some active force like some other cults teach. Or in Satanism they teach a god of forces and we read of such in scripture

we read

"36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain."

" In the occultic oriented mystery religious traditions, we find a system of belief known under a variety of names including Pantheism, Spiritism, Theosophy, Freemasonry, and a host of others. Essentially, this worldview claims that God is not a personality as much as a phenomenon. The central idea is expressed in various Eastern religious systems as well as in Gnosticism and even Western philosophy. This doctrine claims that God is a force that is comprised of equal components of good and evil."(CHRISTIAN MEDIA RESEARCH - Newsletter - The God Of Forces)

Yes, this: "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life"

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

Now let's discuss post #322.

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
"God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

"There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light." (Matthew 17:2)

What is this "Light", or Who is the "Light"? Is this "Light" a thing? Or is it a Person?

What, or Who, do you say that the "Light" is?

If His "clothes" became as white as the light, were they still just clothes? Or did the clothes contain something, or Someone more?

What say YE? LoveofTruth?

Jesus Christ is the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9. This light of the word, is the seed and truth of God shining in mens hearts. This is spiritual . We do not worship the Sun God as some do. Or physical light as some do. And no the physical light does not fuse somehow with the spiritual light to make a new God of Light.

The Light is Christ and he shines IN men.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Luke 11:35 KJV
"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."

Psalm 119:105
"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Yes, this: "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life"

this divine influence is Christ in men the word sown. This is God influencing them by HIMSELF in His person. He is not an "energy". He is a Spirit and the creator, a personal being.

God works in believers to make them perfect, working in them that which is well pleasing in His sight.

and again He works by the word or the seed, which is Christ. This word is called the word of His grace. again these things are mysteries and its hard to speak of them with you as you see only the physical and literal.

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
You don't simply quote Scripture. You interpret them first, then post them. But they don't collaborate all of your beliefs. You're misinterpreting them.

again you cannot just make such a blanket statement and not prove one word of your accusation.

Its like someone gives another person hundreds of verses and proves all his points and the other person simply says,"nope they can't be right because you go against my eastern Orthodox Tradition so you must be wrong"

that is no argument at all. That is not how a believer would earnestly contend for the faith and give and answer to every man.

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
again you cannot just make such a blanket statement and not prove one word of your accusation.

Its like someone gives another person hundreds of verses and proves all his points and the other person simply says,"nope they can't be right because you go against my eastern Orthodox Tradition so you must be wrong"

that is no argument at all. That is not how a believer would earnestly contend for the faith and give and answer to every man.

I've already proved it from Scripture, again and again, so now I can make the blanket statement.

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
this divine influence is Christ in men the word sown. This is God influencing them by HIMSELF in His person. He is not an "energy". He is a Spirit and the creator, a personal being.

God works in believers to make them perfect, working in them that which is well pleasing in His sight.

and again He works by the word or the seed, which is Christ. This word is called the word of His grace. again these things are mysteries and its hard to speak of them with you as you see only the physical and literal.

So, God is a Person. God is Light. How is it that the disciples see the Light (God) with their eyes? Is the Light the humanity of Christ or the Divinity of Christ? Or is it the Person of the Word separated from the Divine and human nature of Christ God? Explain the "Vision" of the Light as described in the account of Christ's Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

"The Light of the Lord's Transfiguration does not come into being or cease to be, nor is it circumscribed or perceptible to the senses, even though for a short time on the narrow mountain top it was seen by human eyes. Rather, at that moment the initiated disciples of the Lord 'passed', as we have been taught, 'from flesh to spirit' by the transformation of their senses, which the Spirit wrought in them, and so they saw that ineffable light, when and as much as the Holy Spirit's power granted them to do so."

This means that the answer I had hoped you would respond with is that the three disciples were "enabled" by the "power" (grace) of the Holy Spirit to see (with their physical senses) the ineffable Light, Who is God (1 John 1:5).

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
So, God is a Person. God is Light. How is it that the disciples see the Light (God) with their eyes? Is the Light the humanity of Christ or the Divinity of Christ? Or is it the Person of the Word separated from the Divine nature of God? Explain the "Vision" of the Light as described in the account of Christ's Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.

You cannot make this story fit your bread and wine and water turning into God. Your argument says nothing of such things.

The text says

"
Matthew 17:2
"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

No man has seen God at any time. But the Father showed a spiritual revelation or vision of the Son, by the shinning light upon His face and clothes. The Son of God is spiritual and the son of man is the physical. We have seen similar glorious visions or revelations such as this

"was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:"(2 Cor. 3:7 KJV)

"29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. 30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him."(Exodus 34:29,30 KJV)

We see some in the scriptures that saw the glory of the Lord and other spiritual things such as angels and the tree that burned and the sheikh glory of God. Even Moses face did shine when he came down the mountain.

They also saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove. So there are spiritual things seen by natural eyes.

Even Jesus was in some sense hidden from natural eyes. The Father has to reveal the Son of God in the spirit to men. Flesh and blood did not reveal that to peter.

It could be said that Peter and James and John had spiritual eyes and God gave a vision.

we also read

Exodus 16:10
"And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud."

Exodus 24:17
And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel."

Numbers 20:6
And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them."

but this does not speak to your bread God and mystical water in baptism or literal blood to drink from wine.

Paul says "this bread which we break"

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Which relates to this: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

These verses together bear witness that the grace of the Holy Spirit "works" within men.

LoveofTruth said:
You cannot make this story fit your bread and wine and water turning into God. Your argument says nothing of such things.

The text says

"
Matthew 17:2
"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

No man has seen God at any time. But the Father showed a spiritual revelation or vision of the Son, by the shinning light upon His face and clothes. The Son of God is spiritual and the son of man is the physical. We have seen similar glorious visions or revelations such as this

"was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:"(2 Cor. 3:7 KJV)

"29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. 30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him."(Exodus 34:29,30 KJV)

We see some in the scriptures that saw the glory of the Lord and other spiritual things such as angels and the tree that burned and the sheikh glory of God. Even Moses face did shine when he came down the mountain.

They also saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove. So there are spiritual things seen by natural eyes.

Even Jesus was in some sense hidden from natural eyes. The Father has to reveal the Son of God in the spirit to men. Flesh and blood did not reveal that to peter.

It could be said that Peter and James and John had spiritual eyes and God gave a vision.

we also read

Exodus 16:10
"And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud."

Exodus 24:17
And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel."

Numbers 20:6
And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them."

but this does not speak to your bread God and mystical water in baptism or literal blood to drink from wine.

Paul says "this bread which we break"

Were the "spiritual things seen with physical eyes" created things? or were they "uncreated"?

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
"The Light of the Lord's Transfiguration does not come into being or cease to be, nor is it circumscribed or perceptible to the senses, even though for a short time on the narrow mountain top it was seen by human eyes. Rather, at that moment the initiated disciples of the Lord 'passed', as we have been taught, 'from flesh to spirit' by the transformation of their senses, which the Spirit wrought in them, and so they saw that ineffable light, when and as much as the Holy Spirit's power granted them to do so."

This means that the answer I had hoped you would respond with is that the three disciples were "enabled" by the "power" (grace) of the Holy Spirit to see (with their physical senses) the ineffable Light, Who is God (1 John 1:5).

God can show visions and spiritual things to those who have spiritual eyes. And no one has said that God cannot sow spiritual things to physical men.

2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."

Paul even said

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."(2 Cor 12:2-4 KJV)

this is how Paul tries to explain such things and you ask for explanation.

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Were the "spiritual things seen with physical eyes" created things? or were the "uncreated"?

2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."

natural eyes couldn't see

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Were the "spiritual things seen with physical eyes" created things? or were they "uncreated"?

Matthew 13:16
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."

natural eyes couldn't see

How were Elisha's eyes opened? Or the eyes of the young man? by a power that was created by God, or by God's eternal and uncreated power flowing out of His uncreated essence?

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Which relates to this: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

No he only speaks of flesh and spiritual births. Two births he is talking about in that chapter.

As Jesus said

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

flesh birth is when the water breaks and the flesh birth is born from the womb. This answered Nicodemus question, when he asked "

John 3:4
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
How were Elisha's eyes opened? Or the eyes of the young man? by a power that was created by God, or by God's eternal and uncreated power flowing out of His uncreated essence?

God simply gave him a vision, we see this at different times.

"31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"(Luke 24:31,32 KJV)

and a verse that might apply to you

Revelation 3:18
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

LoveofTruth · Jan 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
How were Elisha's eyes opened? Or the eyes of the young man? by a power that was created by God, or by God's eternal and uncreated power flowing out of His uncreated essence?

Peter calls such things visions

Acts 11:5
I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:"

Saved by Faith or grace?

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Christ builds His church from within us

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Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

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Christ builds His church from within us

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Christ builds His church from within us

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Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

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