Sodomite weddings at the UMC

redleghunter

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Right, that's the same wording I'm familiar with, and we already agree it's a sin, and also destatable/abomination, but I am trying to ask about your saying it was even up to the level, the special level of sacrificing children in fire to idols, specifically. In particular. That's the question I'm asking about, specifically. Not whether it's sin, not whether it's an abomination -- those we see already. But whether it has a special level like as you yourself wrote "
Ranked up there with those who burned their infants to Molech." Which we see in Deuteronomy 12:31 is an abomination separated out I think as a worse level by the choice of the word "even". It's significant to rank it up at the level which was a primary cause for the utter destruction of Cannanite cities by Israel under instruction where even the animals and infants were to be put to the sword in the OT. Of course it doesn't have to be "even" that level to be already a serious sin (garden variety sins are serious we know!) like adultery, or as Christ instructs us lusting after someone not our spouse in our own heart secretly.
From my reading of the OT over the years it seems detestable/abomination usually applies to sins which were out of the original creation design. Idolatry, the shedding of innocent blood, maltreatment of the widow and orphan and also homosexuality. I would add anything that also robs YHWH of His Glory was given the same emphasis as you can see if someone brought Him a defective sacrifice that was also an abomination. Many of these sins (including as you mentioned) has a Mosaic theocracy capital punishment as well.
 
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redleghunter

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That's a truly very important question, and high stakes! High stakes because of the sharp and even salvation level issue of whether we welcome other believers in Matthew 18 in the separating of those who do welcome even the least of His on one hand and those who do not welcome even the least on the other hand.

In your specific question I quoted, I cannot see an indication they are doing the sin of sodomy intercourse, and I do know it's very possibly (not just a slight possibility, but probably more commonplace than we have been led to guess in popular culture) that they might very well not do it at all . If they are not specifically endorsing or flaunting the speicific sin of sodomy intercourse, which is not at all gay marriage -- it's a sin even a traditional married man/woman couple can do, and some do -- then we could not turn them away without actually directly endangering our very own salvation!
However, is their union a Biblical marriage. Matthew 19:1-10 says no. Jesus clearly outlines there that marriage is a one man, one woman union and even quotes Genesis 2:24 as affirming this was the original design.

So as a pastor it would be highly recommended for the church to have a statement of faith affirming marriage according to the words of Christ. He affirmed the original design, and that is why the ancient churches view marriage as a sacrament. They did not do so because they thought it to be a nice idea, but because the very words on marriage come directly from Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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I don't claim homosexuality to not be a sin, but I see the judgemental hateful attitude of fellow Christians to be just as bad of a sin if not worse because it is breaking the second commandment of Christ.
Thank you for your judgemental comments.
 
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Halbhh

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From my reading of the OT over the years it seems detestable/abomination usually applies to sins which were out of the original creation design. Idolatry, the shedding of innocent blood, maltreatment of the widow and orphan and also homosexuality. I would add anything that also robs YHWH of His Glory was given the same emphasis as you can see if someone brought Him a defective sacrifice that was also an abomination. Many of these sins (including as you mentioned) has a Mosaic theocracy capital punishment as well.
Ok. It's fair to simply point to it be "destestable" and/or "abomination", and not have to say we know it's up at the even high level of sacrificing children in fire to idols. I feel it almost certianly is not up at "even" that level, as I understand to be the specific abomination leading to the entire destruction of Cannanite cities even to the level of the animals also. Sorry it this seems picky, but this question of the destruction of those cities comes up a lot in other discussions with atheists, and one has to then explain, so it's an issue I've had to explain a few times.
 
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Halbhh

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However, is their union a Biblical marriage. Matthew 19:1-10 says no. Jesus clearly outlines there that marriage is a one man, one woman union and even quotes Genesis 2:24 as affirming this was the original design.

So as a pastor it would be highly recommended for the church to have a statement of faith affirming marriage according to the words of Christ. He affirmed the original design, and that is why the ancient churches view marriage as a sacrament. They did not do so because they thought it to be a nice idea, but because the very words on marriage come directly from Christ.

I haven't needed to explain why King David, author of many of the Psalms, and even "a man after God's own heart", had so very many wives. I hope I'm not pressed to explain that one! I don't know how to, but....I do feel it's not an issue. It's not....something we have to explain. But it does (this is not mean to derail the thread) raise that question when some want to add the wording "one man one woman". I could observe I think one man and one woman is best, just so you won't think I feel any other way, lol.
 
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redleghunter

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The pharisees liked to stand lofty and look holy but their hearts were dead because they had no love. They followed the law but were not saved.
I'm sure glad you concluded your logical fallacy relevance through presumption with the above. Now you can start demonizing everyone who disagrees with you.
 
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redleghunter

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At least read the whole conversation if you are going to speak.
We all should be looking at the OP subject instead of avoiding it.

The UMC condones open homosexuality and by extension homosexual unions. How we got to heterosexual wife abuse as a comparison is quite interesting but irrelevant to the subject.

The OP made it clear that his thread was about how the UMC as a Christian church condone sin in their ranks---Officially.

Maybe we can all get back on the OP topic and try to find out how the UMC came to this position and why.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Interesting. You know if one of your EO priest came out of the closet he would no longer be pastoring a parish.

EO priests aren't as well known for "bashing gays" from the pulpit. Either way this entire discussion has become fruitless and I recommend shutting it down.

Homosexuality is a sin
All sin is equal
We are all to flee sin and live perfect
We are all to love our brothers as ourselves
We are not to judge others
Homosexuality is seen as special by men because it is more revolting to men

These are the only points I have been trying to make.
 
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☦Marius☦

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I'm sure glad you concluded your logical fallacy relevance through presumption with the above. Now you can start demonizing everyone who disagrees with you.

I wasn't calling anyone a pharisee, or comparing anyone to them, merely the attitudes associated with following the law without compassion for others.

Relax.
 
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redleghunter

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The issue with the pharisees was that they followed the law in action, but their hearts did not understand the point of it all.

Not entirely. The Pharisees were accused of making God's Law of no effect due to their man-made traditions. So I think @Johnny4ChristJesus has a very good point in his post. The UMC is putting their denomination or church tradition above the Word of God:

Mark 7: NKJV
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching
as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
 
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redleghunter

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If more Christians looked at their own sins instead of constantly focusing on their brothers, then maybe we wouldn't have so many pastors getting caught in sex scandals or fraud.
True. But the OP subject is about the UMC 'norming' sin. A specific sin.
 
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redleghunter

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Times change and so do views expressed in the bible
From the perspective of the world and man. God does not change.

“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. (Malachi 3:6)

A reference on the immutability of God.

What is the immutability of God?
 
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Halbhh

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Might I interject that both of you are correctly pointing out things the Pharisees did wrong. The Pharisees indeed failed to follow the true spirt of the law inside their hearts (Matthew 23:25-28), and also they did indeed hand down mere man-made traditions that were not of the true Law, displacing parts of the true Law. So, it's both.
 
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redleghunter

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2. that criticizing the sinful conduct of others causes pastors to get involved in sex scandals or commit fraud, which doesn't make any sense.
That's because such an approach is a logical fallacy. I'm sorry your OP had to take such a detour which ignores what you intended to discuss.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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The reason we have moved along and eat prawns if we choose to has nothing to do with me sitting n thinking... oh im not a jew so its cool.... it has everything to do with people thinking that this sort of old out of date biblical laws are nonsense
As mentioned it has to do with covenants not our whims.
 
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redleghunter

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I will play Devil's Advocate in the rest of my post and counter your comments with some of the ways that defenders of gay marriage would respond:

"For example, in Leviticus 18:22, sodomy is rightfully called an "abomination.""
The Leviticus passages are part of the Law that was nullified in Christ (Romans 10:4).
In any case, your sodomy label is an irrelevant misnomer based on Genesis 19:5. In ancient near eastern culture, heterosexual warriors seek to humiliate vanquished men by raping them. The goal is to shame and their crime has nothing to do with a homoerotic sexual orientation. Any academic commentary on Genesis will tell you that.

"And in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, scripture says that sodomites will not inherit the Kingdom of God." To put it another way, active homosexuals who don't repent will suffer eternal agony in the burning, fiery depths of hell."

Irrelevant! The Greek terms (malakoi and arsenokoitai) used here refer to pederasty, not sexual acts between consenting adult males. This was a common problem in Corinth between masters and youthful slave boys. In fact, the population of Athens in Paul's day was about 20,000, but in Corinth it was about 700,000--largely due to the Roman garrison there and the unusually huge number of slaves.

"There are some Christians who unfortunately deal with same-sex attraction, but they never act on their desires and seek the counsel of God for dealing with their immoral lust."

The Bible addresses the same-sex issue from the perspective of lust; it never addresses the possibility of 2 men who are genuinely in love with each other and make a lifelong commitment to each other. It is possible that Jonathan is gay and David and Jonathan have a passionate relationship in which they embrace and kiss each other (1 Samuel 20:41), Indeed, Saul shames Jonathan by telling him that his relationship with David "is to the shame of your mother's nakedness (20:30)" and David admits that love for Jonathan surpasses that of a man's love with a woman (2 Samuel 1:26).

You need to recognize that Jesus addresses the issue of same-sex sexual attraction with His phrase "eunuchs from birth" in Matthew 19:12. Against its cultural background, this phrase refers not men born without balls, but to men who, for whatever reason, are not attracted to women. In other words, the phrase includes gay men, about whom Jesus says approvingly, "Let anyone accept this who can." Modern science recognizes gay sex orientation as genetic rather than environmentally caused.
All of the above wiped out with the words of Christ:

Matthew 19: NKJV
19 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’ 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
 
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redleghunter

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That isn't compassion. Nothing like it.
Actually if we don't warn someone heading towards a precipice of the dangers ahead, their blood is on our hands. As pointed out here:

Ezekiel 33: New King James Version (NKJV)


33 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

10 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: ‘Thus you say, “If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?”’ 11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
 
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Halbhh

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All of the above wiped out with the words of Christ:

Matthew 19: NKJV
19 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’ 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

This powerful quote means just what it says -- a man is not to put away (divorce) his wife. Even if for instance they were separated, he is not to replace her, if she is living.

Actually, this is rather harder to deal with, this actual meaning.

One way to deal with it is to become aware that Christ has commanded us to forgive "from the heart". (Matthew chapter 18) Meaning, to truly and fully forgive, even so that afterwards it is just not held against the other person any more!

And even warned us of the eternal consequences that may happen if we do not forgive from the heart.

If people forgive, they will not get divorced.

(There is zero about gay relationships in this quote. But there is something very crucial for us all though.)
 
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