Is the Eucharist a Sacrifice?

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,400
3,704
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,642.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
.
Not really, all you need to do is understand what the Lord was actually saying to His Disciples, and throw out all of the add on's from man and the Church.
When you toss aside all the "He couldn't really have meant that", weaseling around what He actually said and take our Lord at His Word, you must inevitably conclude that the elements of the Eucharist are His Body and His Blood. Still a hard saying after all these centuries, huh? Who can hear it?
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,400
3,704
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,642.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
.
If I partake of the Bread & Wine with my family, and friends, then we are Remembering our Lord until He comes, that is what we were told to do by Jesus, ....."AS OFTEN"...... the more often the Remembrance is made, the better off we are.
Be careful that you remember St. Paul's warning against failure to discern the Lord's Body and Blood in the elements. Difficult to heed if you deny that His Body and Blood are there in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,400
3,704
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,642.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes I do. And you are just being obscure and argumentative by insisting that one kind of ritual is not a ritual.
My rituals ain't rituals, and my dogmas ain't dogmas! So there! ^_^
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Be careful that you remember St. Paul's warning against failure to discern the Lord's Body and Blood in the elements. Difficult to heed if you deny that His Body and Blood are there in the first place.

He didn't say "discern the Body and Blood ... through the elements".

He said "discern the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ."

There is no question that the "Lord's Supper" is supposed to engender "REMEMBRANCE" of Jesus sacrifice of His Body and Blood. To participate in the Supper without REMEMBERING His sacrifice is, at best, meaningless ... "
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?

This is what the writer to the Hebrews had to say about the Old Testament sacrifices ...

Hebrews 10

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming. It is not the real things themselves. The same sacrifices have to be offered over and over again. They must be offered year after year. That's why the law can never make perfect those who come near to worship.

2 If it could, wouldn't the sacrifices have stopped being offered? The worshipers would have been made clean once and for all time. They would not have felt guilty for their sins anymore.

3 But those offerings remind people of their sins every year.

4 It isn't possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10 goes on to say that Jesus' sacrifice is "ONCE and for all" ...

10 We have been made holy by what God wanted. We have been made holy because Jesus Christ offered his body once and for all time.

11 Day after day every priest stands and does his special duties. He offers the same sacrifices again and again. But they can never take away sins.

12 Jesus our priest offered one sacrifice for sins for all time. Then he sat down at the right hand of God.
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,400
3,704
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,642.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He didn't say "discern the Body and Blood ... through the elements".He said "discern the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ."
Discern it where? Did you actually read the Scripture, or are you just parroting your denomination's doctrinal position? But this is simply further proof of the accuracy of Brother Buford's observation that "Every Christian sect or denomination has doctrines so dearly held that the Bible cannot be allowed to damage them." Your lot found that you simply could not believe that the Scripture meant what the Lord said. what St. Paul affirmed, and the entire Church believed up until the Reformation, so you just disregard it and/or "interpret" it away.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Discern it where? Did you actually read the Scripture, or are you just parroting your denomination's doctrinal position? But this is simply further proof of the accuracy of Brother Buford's observation that "Every Christian sect or denomination has doctrines so dearly held that the Bible cannot be allowed to damage them." Your lot found that you simply could not believe that the Scripture meant what the Lord said. what St. Paul affirmed, and the entire Church believed up until the Reformation, so you just disregard it and/or "interpret" it away.

The Lord never said that the ELEMENTS transubstantiate into His physical body and blood.

And we know that our life in Christ is SPIRITUAL, NOT PHYSICAL (for we will DIE physically) ... and Jesus said that those that believe in Him will NEVER DIE, so He has to be talking about something other than physical life.

So, then, if the LIFE Jesus gives us is SPIRITUAL, ... it is only reasonable to conclude that the nourishment for that life is SPIRITUAL, rather than PHYSICAL, requiring SPIRITUAL discernment, as opposed to PHYSICAL discernment.

So ... I do, indeed, disagree with the Catholic Church that there is a PHYSICAL change in the elements of the Lord's Supper, for, as Christ Himself said ...

"The FLESH profits NOTHING ... it is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE". JOHN 6:63
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,592
66
Northern uk
✟561,189.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?

But then...the bible neither is nor claims to be a complete reference manual on Christianity, nor does it claim to be the sole authority on truth - quite the reverse. The new testament says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" - so we clearly must ask what the church taught even long before there was a new testament..

The earliest fathers and writings frequently refer to the eucharist in the context of a sacrifice, from didache, to clement , ignatius and so on, these taught by the apostles. So it is clear that was the faith and teaching handed down from Jesus to apostles to the succession (paradosis - whch is the meaning of tradition)
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
-snip-and the entire Church believed up until the Reformation, so you just disregard it and/or "interpret" it away.

Hello? The "entire Church" didn't believe in Transubstantiation ever.

Nor did the "entire Church" ever view the bread/wine as body/blood.

See church history. Google is your friend.
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
-snip-

The earliest fathers and writings frequently refer to the eucharist in the context of a sacrifice, from didache, to clement , ignatius and so on, these taught by the apostles. So it is clear that was the faith and teaching handed down from Jesus to apostles to the succession (paradosis - whch is the meaning of tradition)

Nonsense. Irenaeus for example on Eucharist as not a physical sacrifice.

Those persons, then, who perform these oblations in remembrance of the Lord, do not fall in with Jewish views [carnal or physical], but, performing the service after a spiritual manner, they shall be called sons of wisdom.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,400
3,704
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,642.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Lord never said that the ELEMENTS transubstantiate into His physical body and blood.
Neither did I. What He did say is that the elements are His Body and Blood. Your lot says "Nah, can't be! He was just waxing poetic." The old reliable "that's what He said, but He really meant was... that allows Scripture to "mean" whatever your sect's doctrine requires.

And we know that our life in Christ is SPIRITUAL, NOT PHYSICAL (for we will DIE physically) ... and Jesus said that those that believe in Him will NEVER DIE, so He has to be talking about something other than physical life.
So do you reckon that what He said had anything to do with what He meant at all?

So ... I do, indeed, disagree with the Catholic Church that there is a PHYSICAL change in the elements of the Lord's Supper, for, as Christ Himself said ...
We Anglicans don't general ly believe in transubstantiation, we believe that the elements of the Eucharist are our Lord's Body and Blood because He said so, without regard to to visible state of those Elements. He said so, St. Paul confirmed it, and the Church believed it up until the Reformation. If that's too difficult for the modern church to believe, then that's a great shame.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Neither did I. What He did say is that the elements are His Body and Blood. Your lot says "Nah, can't be! He was just waxing poetic." The old reliable "that's what He said, but He really meant was... that allows Scripture to "mean" whatever your sect's doctrine requires

My position is that the Lord is SPIRITUALLY present in the elements, ... not symbolically ...
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,592
66
Northern uk
✟561,189.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You omit the most important thing Iraneus said in reference to the eucharist: "He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant"

Which is unequivocal.

What I said made perfect sense. So not nonsense then.

Echoed in one way or another by all the church fathers.
Reformationists have developed amnesia.

Nonsense. Irenaeus for example on Eucharist as not a physical sacrifice.

Those persons, then, who perform these oblations in remembrance of the Lord, do not fall in with Jewish views [carnal or physical], but, performing the service after a spiritual manner, they shall be called sons of wisdom.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You omit the most important thing Iraneus said in reference to the eucharist: "He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant"

Which is .unequivocal.

What I said made perfect sense. So not nonsense then.

Echoed in one way or another by all the church fathers.
Reformationists have developed amnesia.

Christ was sacrificed once for all (Heb). But that's not to say the Christian continues to sacrifice Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,590
Georgia
✟909,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?

And of course Hebrews 10 rejects the idea of any sacrifice that was not full and completed "once for all" at the cross.

Hebrews 10
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Q: Is the "Eucharist" a "Sacrifice"?
A: According to the Bible, NO!

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
That's not the translation. IT is a translation.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
And of course Hebrews 10 rejects the idea of any sacrifice that was not full and completed "once for all" at the cross.

Hebrews 10
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
Well, we don't believe we sacrifice over and over, so you're mis-stating it. We believe it is the same sacrifice Christ made for all.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,590
Georgia
✟909,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
And of course Hebrews 10 rejects the idea of any sacrifice that was not full and completed "once for all" at the cross.

Hebrews 10
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.


Well, we don't believe we sacrifice over and over,

Neither do we. Rather we accept that the sacrifice of Christ was fully complete - once for all 2000 years ago.

He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down




so you're mis-stating it. .

I have not mis-stated anything.
 
Upvote 0