If Amillennialism is true, prove it per Revelation 19.

TribulationSigns · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
It doesn't matter about the context in this case. What matters is, why does the text say twice told, in relation to a thousand years. If it instead had said a hundred years, would you still be treating those years non literally as well?

Okay, let me explain something here.

The numbers ten and it's multiples (100, 1000) often illustrates the Fullness of whatever is in view, without it "necessarily" being the totality. As a practical illustration, Monday would be a full day, but not the totality of the week. Likewise, ten would represent the fullness or completeness of that particular day, but not necessarily the totality of the whole week which that day is part of. A perfect Biblical example is the Beast of Revelation chapter 12 and chapter 17, with its 7 heads and 10 horns. The number seven illustrates the totality or total length of time of Satan's authority (heads) and rule (crowns), while the ten horns illustrate His rule only near the end of the world. For example, as said in Revelation 17, the ten horns had no kingdom as yet (when Revelation was written), but is prophesied to reign one hour with the Beast. The ten horns signified the fullness of time (10) that these kings would have power (horns) to reign with the beast. It's called a short season, but it is the fullness of time within the time context of the rule of this Beast! That number ten signifies that fullness of time.

Likewise, the multiples of ten, as ten times ten (100) or ten times one hundred (1000) illustrate the completeness or fullness of whatever is in view, without it necessarily being the totality of it. As an example, look at the parable of the silver money.

Luke 15:8

"Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?"

Here in the parable of the ten silver pieces, a woman loses one of the ten. She searches for it until she finds it. This is numerical symbolism which shows the believer's search for lost souls representing those who are to be Saved. When we have found what was lost, the batch will be a full or complete treasure. The number ten signified the fullness of believers there. We are the silver which is found by the lighted candle. This is just like the parable of the one hundred (multiple of 10) sheep,

Luke 15:3-5

"And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing".

The same principle applies. If we lose one of them, we search till we find it. The fullness of them must be found. The number one hundred there signified the fullness of believers which are shepherded over. It is not about 100 literal sheep. Likewise in the multiple of 10x100, it signifies the fulness of whatever is in view. Isaiah chapter seven speaks of the First coming of the Lord (verse 14) and says,

Isaiah 7:23

"And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. With arrows and with bows shall men come hither; because All he land shall become briers and thorns."

Are we to suppose this is a literal number? Really? Were there literally one thousand vines and one thousand silverlings (not 1001 or 999)? When we look at the verse carefully we see that God is using numerical symbology to signify that where there was the fullness of vines, there will be briers and thorns. The number one thousand is not to alert us to the exact literal number of vines, or the exact literal number of one thousand silverlings (pieces of silver money), rather it is to illustrate where the fullness of vines once was, and where the fullness of treasure was, it is changed to briers and thorns. Not literally every place where one thousand pieces of silver were of one thousand vines were. The word thousand is merely being used to signify a very long time, but not literally a thousand.

Deuteronomy 7:9

"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1st Chronicles 16:15

"Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations,"

Psalms 105:8

"He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

This is a thousand used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of time, not literally a thousand generations. In other words, His Word is commanded to ALL generations, not just literally one thousand generation of 40 years, 70 years, or 100 years. But God is using the number thousand here to show spiritual consistency in representing the fullness. Likewise in Revelation chapter 20, where it speaks of the one thousand year millennial reign of Christ. It is the perfect example of this numerical symbology. It signifies the fullness of time of the reign of Christ, the binding of satan, and the rest of the dead live not again, before the second Resurrection. Not the totality of time from the beginning, and not literally one thousand years, but the fullness of time between events spoken of there.

So much for cardinal numbers!

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

geiroffenberg said:
An example where years is not meant in a literal way is where it says one day is like a thousand years and vica verca.

But the cardinal number of year argument is a circular meaningless argument anyway as the reference to the thousand years period in the book of revelation IS also in the bible and you would have to prove why THIS number is literal to make the argument valid.

IF i already have pointed to several instances (the thousand years are mentieond several times in revelation in additino to the 2 peter reference) where thousand is not provably used in literal sense, then you can't say theres a established pattern of cardinal numbers for literal years.

PLUS (and more importantly)
It is told us from the very beginning of the book that the thousand years is part of a "vision" and a "sign" and not to be taken literal.
If the bible itself tells is in the very same book that it is prophetic symbolism, why insist it is literal?

I'm at least intelligent enough to know this. That being, Amils can never agree that a thousand years in the Bible is meaning in a literal sense anywhere it's used, because to do so destroys Amil. Amil can not work if a thousand years is literal, though if I'm not mistaken, some Amils in the past actually took the thousand years in a literal sense. But when a thousand years came and went, they then started treating it figuratively instead. I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but don't ask me where, not certain ATM.

Cat Loaf You · Jan 25, 2018

Amillennialism is true in mind of amillennialist only .

In reality you would have to throw away good chunk of Bible to make it work .

vinsight4u · Jan 25, 2018

Brian Mcnamee · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

What is undeniably in view here? The 2nd coming, and the lake of fire. If Amillennialism is true, then prove John not only saw the beast and false prophet get cast into the LOF during the above, but he also saw satan getting cast in, plus the remnant that were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, cast in as well. All of which would have to be true in order for Amillennialism to be true.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Amils claim this, too, happens during the 2nd coming recorded in Revelation 19. For the sake of argument, let's say it does. That should mean those devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven, which BTW isn't meaning the lake of fire, would include the beast and false prophet. What person or persons could possibly be devoured by fire from God out of heaven, and still be alive to tell about it? When God rained fire down from heaven on Sodom and Gomorrah, those He rained this upon, were any left alive to tell about it?

You might be wondering why I even bring this up. Look what Revelation 19:20 indicates----These both were cast alive. How is it possible that they could still be alive if God had devoured them with fire out of heaven? Obviously then, to avoid a nonsensical conclusion, such as God devouring with fire out of heaven but still being alive to tell about it, Revelation 20:9 is therefore meaning an entirely different timeframe altogether, unrelated to the events at the 2nd coming.

Hi the 1000 years is literal and you are right to note the two distinctions in the destruction that takes place at the 2nd coming and the period after the 1000 years is complete. Daniel 7 tells the same story.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

The pompous horn is destroyed and its body is given to the flames but the rest of the beast lose their dominion at this time and have their lives prolonged a season and a time. Note this happens when the kingdom is established and his dominion is everlasting. The kingdom is established on earth as it is in heaven. When Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years he no longer has any dominion. This is the beast lives being prolonged a season of 1000 years and released for a time to deceive the nations once more. The they surround the holy city and fire comes down and that is it. There are hundreds of prophecies of the kingdom being on earth and ZEch 14 shows the 2nd coming of Jesus and declares in that day the LORD shall be king over all the earth. Jesus is LORD but is not yet taken his rightful kingdom over the earth. All the parables about a king leaving and then returning and measuring up the servants and all will play out. This subject involves a lot like the fate of Israel and a future literal 70th week of Daniel. If you believe God will perform His word according to the prophets it seems to be lined up to happen just that way so lets be good stewards and be looking for the coming king.

TribulationSigns · Jan 25, 2018

vinsight4u said:
After Armageddon/the battle at the end of Rev. 19, then look at the last part of Zechariah 14 as to future events. The land around Jerusalem will be lifted up. She will dwell safely. This situation is required before Gog can attack. He will come against the land that is gathered out of the nations and dwells safely. The land that is brought back from the sword/the time of Babylon.
Zechariah 14 shows a great tumult will come. Later those that came against Jerusalem will need to come to worship the King ---year to year.
Only now could the devil be bound and the millennium begin.
The time now starts as - nation shall not lift up sword against nation...neither shall they learn war.
animals are not a threat during this time....they are not eating each other
Jerusalem has been created anew. Later, the earth will be new without any sea part.

This is typical Pre-millennialism/Dispensationalism interpretation of Zechariah 14 which is incorrect.

Zechariah 14 clearly connects the Feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how the living water (Gospel) would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not saying that literally every believer in the world has to go to the middle east and visit Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works. There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, many looks at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He is the Living water and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished. But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event.

Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is not a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers. And it's not talking about a literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely because Christ has bound Satan, and delivered them from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths.

With that said, I will not discuss Zechariah 14 more in depth because the OP is about amillennialism's relationship with Revelation 19 so I won't hijack this thread just to correct those who have attempted to distract the subject.

Brian Mcnamee · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Rev 20:2-3
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

One needs to be careful with the word, "nations". God was not talking about physical nations or political nations with borders here. The nations also mean Gentiles as in heathen people. And WHERE did Satan deceive the Gentiles "pre-cross". Since the world was already in Satan's camp, but it is those within the congregation of Israel which was deceived by Him. For example, the scribes and Pharisees and those who are deceived by them were spiritual enemies of the True Believers.

Christ came and bind Satan and cast him out of Old Testament congregation (which the kingdom of heaven represents) so that he could not deceive or prevent any Gentiles from being saved by the Gospel that New Testament congregation (post cross representative of the kingdom of God) brought to the world until the fulness of the gentiles (same as nations) be coming in. Once this takes place, Satan will then be loosened for a little season where he is allowed to deceive the Gentiles (nations) WITHIN the New Testament congregation. In other words, they are only allowed to deceive those men without the seal of God (Gentiles) in the church per Revelation 9. That is why God sees His unfaithful congregation as Mystery Babylon of Revelation 18 which has BECOME a home of the devils (false prophets and christs with spirit of antichrists like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Jonathan Prince, Benny Hinn, etc. etc. )

it makes sense taking it as 1000 literal years especially when you think of the creation model of 6 days of labor and rest on Sabbath. Many content through the genealogies that we are approaching the end of the 6th millennium of mans history. The final 1000 years would indeed be rest from the labor and as Zech 14 shows that the feast of tabernacles is required of all nations when the LORD is now king over all the earth. Zech 14 says that the day the LORD is king is one when Jerusalem has been overrun by armies of many nations and the LORD comes with His saints. It is a day when it is dark at day and light at night and the MT of Olives splits in two and forms a new valley and also a river will flow year round from that point. The dead bodies are everywhere and they are melted incredibly.
You see the law of prophets says a prophet must be 100 percent right or he is a false prophet and the test is did what the prophet say happen or not. So Zech taken literally has many specifics that tie into the coming kingdom and Satan bound and the nations no longer being deceived. I have seen attempts to try to again take away from the literal declaration of Zech and Sprirtualize that too. I tend to not want to ad or take away from God word and a literal view holds up when you take the whole sum of prophecy and integrate the various themes. The verse in Rev about speaking in symbols is found in Ch 1 where many symbols are introduced and then they are identified and explained. Twice later in the book John is told to prophecy about many nations, people and all. The rest of the prophecy is exactly that prophecy and why would not the LORD reign for exactly 1000 years as the full Sabbath rest of man from Genesis to Revelation . This kingdom established at the 2nd coming has no end it is the same kingdom that enters the new Jerusalem and that matches much more closely with Daniel 2 showing the stone cut with out hands descending from heaven crushing the image of mans kingdoms grinding them to powder and leaving no trace of them. The stone becomes a mountain kingdom that covers the entire earth and this kingdom will have no end. Image of mans kingdom has not been destroyed and the stone has yet to come down. Jesus will at the 2nd coming do all these things.

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
This is typical Pre-millennialism/Dispensationalism interpretation of Zechariah 14 which is incorrect.

Zechariah 14 clearly connects the Feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how the living water (Gospel) would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not saying that literally every believer in the world has to go to the middle east and visit Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works. There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, many looks at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He is the Living water and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished. But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event.

Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is not a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers. And it's not talking about a literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely because Christ has bound Satan, and delivered them from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths.

With that said, I will not discuss Zechariah 14 more in depth because the OP is about amillennialism's relationship with Revelation 19 so I won't hijack this thread just to correct those who have attempted to distract the subject.

Actually though, I love discussing Zechariah 14. Zechariah 14 is one of the many reasons I feel Premil is the correct position rather than Amil. IMO Zechariah 14 is somewhat relevant to this thread since I'm guessing no one will actually take the OP on anyway, thus undeniably proving John also saw satan and humans cast into the LOF when the beast and false prophet are. You would think that if he witnessed that at the time, he would have made mention of it in Revelation 19. Yet Revelation 19 indicates only two are cast into the LOF at that time, and not millions, or perhaps billions instead, meaning satan and his demons plus all the humans that will be cast in there.

In case you don't believe me---

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Doesn't say satan is also cast into the LOF at this time, nor does it say that those who are at the great white throne judgment and not found in the book of life, are also cast into the LOF at this time. If John took the time to make mention of the beast and false prophet getting cast into the LOF as of the 2nd coming, and assuming he also saw satan and others getting cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, why didn't he tell us that then? Why would he need to hide that fact, assuming it were a fact?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If this is all referring to what happens at the 2nd coming, why would John need to tell us this then----where the beast and the false prophet are? The obvious point he is making here is, that the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF at an earlier time than satan.

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Okay, let me explain something here.

The numbers ten and it's multiples (100, 1000) often illustrates the Fullness of whatever is in view, without it "necessarily" being the totality. As a practical illustration, Monday would be a full day, but not the totality of the week. Likewise, ten would represent the fullness or completeness of that particular day, but not necessarily the totality of the whole week which that day is part of. A perfect Biblical example is the Beast of Revelation chapter 12 and chapter 17, with its 7 heads and 10 horns. The number seven illustrates the totality or total length of time of Satan's authority (heads) and rule (crowns), while the ten horns illustrate His rule only near the end of the world. For example, as said in Revelation 17, the ten horns had no kingdom as yet (when Revelation was written), but is prophesied to reign one hour with the Beast. The ten horns signified the fullness of time (10) that these kings would have power (horns) to reign with the beast. It's called a short season, but it is the fullness of time within the time context of the rule of this Beast! That number ten signifies that fullness of time.

Likewise, the multiples of ten, as ten times ten (100) or ten times one hundred (1000) illustrate the completeness or fullness of whatever is in view, without it necessarily being the totality of it. As an example, look at the parable of the silver money.

Luke 15:8

"Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?"

Here in the parable of the ten silver pieces, a woman loses one of the ten. She searches for it until she finds it. This is numerical symbolism which shows the believer's search for lost souls representing those who are to be Saved. When we have found what was lost, the batch will be a full or complete treasure. The number ten signified the fullness of believers there. We are the silver which is found by the lighted candle. This is just like the parable of the one hundred (multiple of 10) sheep,

Luke 15:3-5

"And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing".

The same principle applies. If we lose one of them, we search till we find it. The fullness of them must be found. The number one hundred there signified the fullness of believers which are shepherded over. It is not about 100 literal sheep. Likewise in the multiple of 10x100, it signifies the fulness of whatever is in view. Isaiah chapter seven speaks of the First coming of the Lord (verse 14) and says,

Isaiah 7:23

"And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. With arrows and with bows shall men come hither; because All he land shall become briers and thorns."

Are we to suppose this is a literal number? Really? Were there literally one thousand vines and one thousand silverlings (not 1001 or 999)? When we look at the verse carefully we see that God is using numerical symbology to signify that where there was the fullness of vines, there will be briers and thorns. The number one thousand is not to alert us to the exact literal number of vines, or the exact literal number of one thousand silverlings (pieces of silver money), rather it is to illustrate where the fullness of vines once was, and where the fullness of treasure was, it is changed to briers and thorns. Not literally every place where one thousand pieces of silver were of one thousand vines were. The word thousand is merely being used to signify a very long time, but not literally a thousand.

Deuteronomy 7:9

"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1st Chronicles 16:15

"Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations,"

Psalms 105:8

"He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

This is a thousand used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of time, not literally a thousand generations. In other words, His Word is commanded to ALL generations, not just literally one thousand generation of 40 years, 70 years, or 100 years. But God is using the number thousand here to show spiritual consistency in representing the fullness. Likewise in Revelation chapter 20, where it speaks of the one thousand year millennial reign of Christ. It is the perfect example of this numerical symbology. It signifies the fullness of time of the reign of Christ, the binding of satan, and the rest of the dead live not again, before the second Resurrection. Not the totality of time from the beginning, and not literally one thousand years, but the fullness of time between events spoken of there.

So much for cardinal numbers!

Some interesting insight here, some of which I was already aware of, some that I wasn't. Good post overall, though I don't feel it proves that the pattern in the Bible, that when a cardinal number is followed by years, it is always interpreted literally, that this pattern doesn't apply if that number is 1000. Let's not forget this one thing, we are talking about cardinal numbers followed by years, and not cardinal numbers in general.

TribulationSigns · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Doesn't say satan is also cast into the LOF at this time, nor does it say that those who are at the great white throne judgment and not found in the book of life, are also cast into the LOF at this time. If John took the time to make mention of the beast and false prophet getting cast into the LOF as of the 2nd coming, and assuming he also saw satan and others getting cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, why didn't he tell us that then? Why would he need to hide that fact, assuming it were a fact?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If this is all referring to what happens at the 2nd coming, why would John need to tell us this then----where the beast and the false prophet are? The obvious point he is making here is, that the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF at an earlier time than satan.

Time out. I know why you believe this, I used to, but sorry to disappoint you. The Premillennial dispensationalism doctrine that typically see the whole book of Revelation in chronological order is not proper biblical interpretation method. The book of Revelation, as a whole book, is NOT in chronological order. Rather the chapters themselves are chronological throughout time. For example:

Chapter 6 begins with a description of Christ conquering (spoiling) people from the kingdom of darkness through the church and concludes with the 2nd Coming with the Saints He conquered. This is how he build His kingdom.

Chapter 7 begin with the sealing of the 144,000 and concluding with the 2nd coming.

Chapter 11 begins with fall of old testament congregation, empower the new testament congregation witnesses, and concludes with the 2nd coming after the testimony of two witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished.

Chapter 12 beings with the birth of Christ and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

Chapter 14 begins with the 144,000 firstfruits at Pentecost and concludes with the 2nd coming.

Chapter 20 begins with the binding of Satan at Christ's first advent so that the church could be built, and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

See, the whole book of Revelation itself is not chronological order. The chapters contained in the book are, within themselves, chronological.

Therefore Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 are talking about the same event from a different perspective. Again, Satan is a spirit the deceive people (beast and false prophets), he will be where people are cast to, right on the spot.

TribulationSigns · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Some interesting insight here, some of which I was already aware of, some that I wasn't. Good post overall, though I don't feel it proves that the pattern in the Bible, that when a cardinal number is followed by years, it is always interpreted literally, that this pattern doesn't apply if that number is 1000. Let's not forget this one thing, we are talking about cardinal numbers followed by years, and not cardinal numbers in general.

You don't get it, but that's okay. Moving on.

Erik

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Time out. I know why you believe this, I used to, but sorry to disappoint you. The Premillennial dispensationalism doctrine that typically see the whole book of Revelation in chronological order is not proper biblical interpretation method. The book of Revelation, as a whole book, is NOT in chronological order. Rather the chapters themselves are chronological throughout time. For example:

Chapter 6 begins with a description of Christ conquering (spoiling) people from the kingdom of darkness through the church and concludes with the 2nd Coming with the Saints He conquered. This is how he build His kingdom.

Chapter 7 begin with the sealing of the 144,000 and concluding with the 2nd coming.

Chapter 11 begins with fall of old testament congregation, empower the new testament congregation witnesses, and concludes with the 2nd coming after the testimony of two witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished.

Chapter 12 beings with the birth of Christ and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

Chapter 14 begins with the 144,000 firstfruits at Pentecost and concludes with the 2nd coming.

Chapter 20 begins with the binding of Satan at Christ's first advent so that the church could be built, and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

See, the whole book of Revelation itself is not chronological order. The chapters contained in the book are, within themselves, chronological.

Therefore Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 are talking about the same event from a different perspective. Again, Satan is a spirit the deceive people (beast and false prophets), he will be where people are cast to, right on the spot.

You're painting these things with a broadrush though, thus assuming all Premils conclude the book of Revelation is in strict chronological order from start to finish. Hate to burst your bubble, but you're discussing this was a Premil who concludes no such thing, that the book of Revelation is in strict chronological order from start to finish. It's plainly obvious that it is not. But that doesn't mean it can't be in chronological order between Revelation 19 and 20 though.

You indicated above----Chapter 12 beings with the birth of Christ and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

So where exactly in chapter 12 are you seeing the 2nd coming?

BABerean2 · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

What is undeniably in view here? The 2nd coming, and the lake of fire. If Amillennialism is true, then prove John not only saw the beast and false prophet get cast into the LOF during the above, but he also saw satan getting cast in, plus the remnant that were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, cast in as well. All of which would have to be true in order for Amillennialism to be true.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Amils claim this, too, happens during the 2nd coming recorded in Revelation 19. For the sake of argument, let's say it does. That should mean those devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven, which BTW isn't meaning the lake of fire, would include the beast and false prophet. What person or persons could possibly be devoured by fire from God out of heaven, and still be alive to tell about it? When God rained fire down from heaven on Sodom and Gomorrah, those He rained this upon, were any left alive to tell about it?

You might be wondering why I even bring this up. Look what Revelation 19:20 indicates----These both were cast alive. How is it possible that they could still be alive if God had devoured them with fire out of heaven? Obviously then, to avoid a nonsensical conclusion, such as God devouring with fire out of heaven but still being alive to tell about it, Revelation 20:9 is therefore meaning an entirely different timeframe altogether, unrelated to the events at the 2nd coming.

Gog/Magog War is the Battle of Armageddon
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

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Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
You don't get it, but that's okay. Moving on.

Erik

You're the one who doesn't get it here. We're talking about cardinal followed by years. Amils are pretty much saying that there is no such thing as a literal thousand years. Adam almost lived a literal thousand years. Wonder how that could be if there is no such thing as a literal thousand years?

TribulationSigns · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
You indicated above----Chapter 12 beings with the birth of Christ and concludes with the 2nd Coming.

So where exactly in chapter 12 are you seeing the 2nd coming?

The overview of Revelation Chapter 12 is of the Church Israel as Christ comes and delivers her to the assault on her by Satan and his minions. She is typed as a woman bringing to birth and fed in the wilderness while the time of her testimony is nigh. It starts from before the cross, illustrates the birth of her deliverer, his work, the wilderness journey, to Satan's final attempt to conquer the remnant of her seed. It's a symbolical picture of the New Covenant with Israel confirmed by Jesus Christ. And the testimony of the remnant will be finished prior to the Second Coming, Revelation 11:7, Daniel 7:25-26.

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
The overview of Revelation Chapter 12 is of the Church Israel as Christ comes and delivers her to the assault on her by Satan and his minions. She is typed as a woman bringing to birth and fed in the wilderness while the time of her testimony is nigh. It starts from before the cross, illustrates the birth of her deliverer, his work, the wilderness journey, to Satan's final attempt to conquer the remnant of her seed. It's a symbolical picture of the New Covenant with Israel confirmed by Jesus Christ. And the testimony of the remnant will be finished prior to the Second Coming, Revelation 11:7, Daniel 7:25-26.

I don't have any disputes with this. We've managed to find something we can agree upon.

Since you brought Daniel 7 up, IMO Daniel 7:22 is referring to Revelation 20:4 for one. I would think Daniel 7:22 gives us the timing of Revelation 20:4 then.

LastSeven · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
I'm at least intelligent enough to know this. That being, Amils can never agree that a thousand years in the Bible is meaning in a literal sense anywhere it's used, because to do so destroys Amil. Amil can not work if a thousand years is literal, though if I'm not mistaken, some Amils in the past actually took the thousand years in a literal sense. But when a thousand years came and went, they then started treating it figuratively instead. I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but don't ask me where, not certain ATM.

Even if it is literal somewhere in the Bible that doesn't mean it's literal in Revelation. And it doesn't need to be symbolic everywhere in scripture in order for amillenialism to be believable. There are plenty of other reasons to see why amillenialism is the only eschatology that makes sense.

LastSeven · Jan 25, 2018

Cat Loaf You said:
Amillennialism is true in mind of amillennialist only .

In reality you would have to throw away good chunk of Bible to make it work .

Nonsense. Not a single verse of scripture needs to be "thrown away" to make amillenialism work. You just need to look at some things from a different angle than what you're used to. See things in a different light and it will make a lot more sense.

DavidPT · Jan 25, 2018

LastSeven said:
Even if is literal somewhere in the Bible that doesn't mean it's literal in Revelation. And it doesn't need to be symbolic everywhere in scripture in order for amillenialism to be believable. There are plenty of other reasons to see why amillenialism is the only eschatology that makes sense.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

From what I can tell though, since I am not meaning the number thousand in general, but specifically meaning a thousand years, the above seem to be the only Scriptures concerning this. I'm yet to encounter any Amil that might take any of these verses in a literal sense, in regards to the thousand years. So I'm confused by your reply here. Maybe you were just meaning a thousand in general, except I'm not, since my point has been this---throughout the Bible, every time a cardinal number is followed by years, it is interpreted literally every time. That is the pattern. Why wouldn't this pattern also apply to 1000? I can tell you why. Because it destroys Amil if it does.

LastSeven · Jan 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
That is the pattern. Why wouldn't this pattern also apply to 1000? I can tell you why. Because it destroys Amil if it does.

I suppose you could "destroy" amillenialism with your understanding of the "1000 years" based on a pattern, as though a pattern has any bearing whatsoever on the author's intended meaning, but what if I told you that I could destroy premillenialism with actual scriptures? Then what are we left with?

If Amillennialism is true, prove it per Revelation 19.

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