Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth said:

By faith Christ dwells in the heart (Eph. 3:17 KJV) and if the faith is connected to the Seed, Christ in a believer, then God is in them working, and those works are needful to be saved. Not our works of the flesh or the law or merits sacraments to be saved. But God working in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight

Philippians 2:13 KJV
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Hebrews 13:20, 21 KJV
"...God...Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

John 15:5
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

-------------------------


consider for yourself this verse,

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."( 2Peter 3:16)

and this one

2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Click to expand...

Rom. 5:2 – we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 – this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 – this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 12:12 – rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 – since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 – for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

1 Thess. 1:3 – remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 6:9-11 – we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.


2 Peter 3:16 – the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. Disproves 'Sola Scriptura'.

LoveofTruth said:

You need more study.

Click to expand...

LoveofTruth said:

First of all quote the real bible it does not say "being saved", but "are saved"

Click to expand...

I take offence to your statements.

Here is a little bit of history on the bible. The KJV mainly. The Latin Vulgate ( I mentioned on a previous post on how old it is, and Luther admitting The Word of God came from the Catholic Church). The King James Version draws heavily from the Douay Rheims which is a direct translation from the Vulgate in to English. Also in a previous post stating the KJV has been altered to suit Protestantism.

If this was not nauseating enough King James in 1617 address the honorable privy council with a official affirmation of his love for men Buckingham. This deplorable king try to justify his homosexuality with one the worst kinds of blastlefany. King James a official stated he believe Christ was queer.

"I, James am neither a God nor an angel, but a man like any other. Therefore I act like a man and confess to loving those dear to me more than other men. You may be sure that I love the Earl of Buckingham more than anyone else, and more than you who are her assembled. I wish to speak in my own behalf and not to have it thought to be a defeat, for Jesus Christ did the same and therefore I can not be blamed. Christ had his son John, and I have my George." (King James VI of Scotland I of England)

I already posted regarding the Council at Jamnia that rejected the NT and Jesus. The same council the reformers followed in rejecting the deuterocanonicals

So the bible I quote from holds "historical precedent" over your version. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.

I do also study the Bible. In the proper context.

I am done with this chat. By all means continue alluding from an evil book that is not fit to be called a 'Bible'.

LoveofTruth said:

I follow Holy scripture in the Spirit not the traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect. We are not to put men above that which is written.

1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines thecommandments of men."


I do not put the so called "church fathers" above scripture. That is where many have gone astray.

And I showed you clearly an answer to your error when you said,

"but the Holy Ghost baptism involves a ritual in which water is used, so it is of "water and the Spirit". This is the Holy Tradition"

I was showing you your error there and how many received the Holy Ghost without and before any water baptism. And jesus said the John baptized (past tense) with water and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost ( future tense). These are two different baptisms. John fully administered his OT water baptism and Jesus would baptism with the Holy Ghost. John didn't have the baptism with the Holy Ghost and desired it, wherefore showing that the water and the Spirit Baptisms were different.



Peter was a Jew and still struggling with the law and the Old Covenant at that time. Jews, always water baptized Gentile converts, and Peter did this supposing to make the Gentiles live like the Jews and under the same Old Covenant that they were under.

But in chapter 11 Peter reversed the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost for the believing circumcision group and he mentioned that while he was baptizing the Gentiles then he remembered the word of the Lord from Acts 1 how that John baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Jesus was showing him that water was not needed, especially for the Gentiles or that they were to be brought under the law as the Jews were coming out of. The Jews were still following the law and zealous of it (Acts 21) and the customs and the time of reformation was for them (Hebrews 9). But to try and bring the Gentiles under the law and then later bring them out would be not right.

The Acts 15 assembly hadn't even happened yet and the Jewish believers wanted to try and make the Gentiles under the law with them and to be circumcised as well. According to the custom of the Jews they would water baptism a new convert and circumcise them as well at that time. In Acts 15 they were talking about were the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved. This issue had not yet been dealt with. Peter also was questioning the situation. He saw that the Gentiles believed and were filled with the Holy Ghost before any water baptism and that must have confused him. God, I believe was showing Peter that they don't need water baptism, and that they are not under the law and in a time of reformation as the Jews were . The old covenant was fading away for the believing Jews and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8) but it hadn't happened yet. So Peter tried to make the Gentiles live like the Jews and add them to the old covenant as they were.

Paul even withstood Peter about similar things

"
Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

And we also read about Peter and Paul and the distinction at that time. Paul went to the Gentiles he was the apostle of the gentiles and Peter was going to the Jews primarily, they had the same gospel but it applied differently to those who were coming out of the law and to those who were not. We see this here,

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter"

Click to expand...

You are mistaken, and do not know Scripture as you ought. Everything you have written here only confirms the man-made, demon inspired tradition serving as the viewpoint by which you twist Scripture to say things that it most certainly does not.

You don't follow the Scripture in the Holy Spirit. This is a false claim. Sola Scriptura is a man-made tradition inspired by demons. Sola Scriptural itself is not substantiated by Scripture. Instead, Scripture teaches that the Church, not Scripture, is the "pillar and bulwark of Truth" (Timothy 3:15). You do not obey the Scripture, because the Scripture states "stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15). The traditions the Apostles taught the Church were "stood firm in" and "clung to". You see, Christ did not command that all who become His followers be "circumcised", He commanded that they be "Baptized". Baptism is part of Christ's Holy Tradition which is the "fulfillment" of the Law and the Prophets. "For as many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Galatians 3:27) (Colossians 2:11-12). Yet you say that the act of Baptizing with water, which real historical documents show was being done in the gentile Churches from the earliest days of the New Testament Church's existence, had not ought to be done. Hence, yours is clearly a man-made tradition as opposed to the Holy Tradition of Christ and His Apostles.

NOW... Where is it that you get the oil from that you use to anoint your brethren with when they fall ill?

LoveofTruth said in post #251:

I showed you that he had to define that same gospel to them as well in chapter 15:1-4. And notice that water is not part of that saving gospel. Baptism in water was part of John s program for Israel . . .

Click to expand...

Note that water baptism was also part of the apostle Paul's program for Christians (Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5).

So 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 cannot be read as excluding water baptism from what Paul taught Christians should do.

Even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met in order for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

LoveofTruth said in post #251:

Paul thanked God that he baptized so few . . .

Click to expand...

Not because he didn't believe in baptism, but because people were slandering him by saying that he baptized in his own name (1 Corinthians 1:15).

LoveofTruth said in post #251:

. . . show me the word "water" in those two sections.

Click to expand...

Note that you accept 1 Corinthians 1:17 as referring to water baptism without it using the word "water".

LoveofTruth said in post #251:

Show me water baptism in the gospel Paul preached.

Click to expand...

Water-immersion (burial) baptism is taught by Paul in Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:27.

LoveofTruth said in post #251:

I showed you that he had to define that same gospel to them as well in chapter 15:1-4.

Click to expand...

The Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved from hell by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from every sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to, and peace with, everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist, or his image, or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #262:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Click to expand...

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law can't make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 isn't contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

LoveofTruth said:

but God's grace only comes through faith to the believer. By faith we enter into they grace. No man can merit grace by works of any kind, espescially by doing a certain sacrament to merit grace for salvation.

Click to expand...

Who exactly believes that? I think that's either a strawman or shows ignorance of actual theology.

This eating and drinking is "spiritual". We, as well as the Old Testament saints eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink" ( 1 Cor 10). Christ wants to come into believers hearts and "sup" with them. This inner supper is the life and how we eat and drink.

Click to expand...

This sounds more like Greek thinking about the world. If our salvation can never have anything to do with anything physical, then why did God take on human flesh?

FireDragon76 said:

Who exactly believes that? I think that's either a strawman or shows ignorance of actual theology.



This sounds more like Greek thinking about the world. If our salvation can never have anything to do with anything physical, then why did God take on human flesh?

Click to expand...

Yes. It's clearly not the Christianity founded by Christ, having been established by Him upon the preaching and teaching of the Apostles, and born witness too in both Scripture and Holy Tradition. This is simply a man-made, antichrist tradition inspired by demons and blatantly at odds with the Truth that "grace" (i.e. the uncreated energies of God) is very often communicated through the medium of created physical matter.

I'm still waiting to be answered as to where this here dualist philosopher who gives the pretense of basing his version of the Christian Faith on the "Holy Spirit enlightened" Truth of Scripture gets the oil to use for anointing his brethren with when they get sick. I figure he'll get around to it eventually.

LoveofTruth said:

many , many tech sacraments for salvation. They teach that the church dispenses the graces of water baptism, the Lords supper etc

many believe this

"According to Catholic teaching, the sacrament of baptism removes original sin and returns one to a state of innocence, enabling him to perform works of congruous merit. Without these works of congruous merit, it would be incongruous (inappropriate) for God to allow entrance into heaven. If a person dies “in a state of grace”—that is, in a proper relationship with the Catholic Church, having been baptized and not having committed any mortal sin (a sin that destroys the state of grace)—but does not have enough works of congruous merit to cover his sins and to make it appropriate for God to allow him into the glories of heaven, then that person must suffer in purgatory until he has paid the temporal penalties for his sins."(What are meritorious works in Catholicism?)

Click to expand...

Sacramentalism is not just Catholic.

We do not believe it is just water in baptism. I am a Lutheran and we reject the theology of merits outlined above. We believe we are justified by faith alone, but contempt for the sacraments of the Gospel is not part of that faith.

LoveofTruth said:

But you still believe water baptism saves and is part of the gospel for salvation. So you add your sacraments to salvation.

Click to expand...

No. Water baptism is how Christ's death and resurrection is applied to us through faith. Christ does not just save an abstract humanity, he saves individuals, and the ordinary way he does so is through baptism.

Baptism is Christ's own work carried out by human hands. It is wrong to say it is a work adding to salvation. Human beings contribute no merit in baptism.

You believe the Bible is the Word of God? Yet Paul wrote Romans, Galatians, etc. That is analogous to what we are talking about here. God normally works in the world through creaturely mediation.

Saved by Faith or grace?

Click to expand...

Yes.