Eternal Security

FaithfulPilgrim

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The doctrine of eternal security goes by various names, including Once Saved, Always Saved, or preserverance of the saints, and there is also conditional security, which isn’t exactly the same thing.

What are your thoughts on this doctrine, and how do you define it?

As a Southern Baptist, I accept eternal security, but there seems to be no clear consensus or answer to what that is. Some define it as synonymous with the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of saints, while others define it differently.

Jesus did say that none who the Father gives Him shall fall away (John 10:28)

I can see the case for conditional security as this security is based on faith and regeneration. The question is, then, can a true believer fall away, or will the Holy Spirit not allow it?

I think that, in theory, a believer could technically fall away, but the power of the Holy Spirit allows them to overcome it or at least not permanently fall away and always return to the faith.

Fellow Baptists (and other Christians who happen to be browsing this thread) what are your thoughts?
 

DW1980

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Hi

I used to believe in once saved, always saved (OSAS) - though now do not. (my background is Baptist)

Jesus didn't say we wouldn't fall away, he said, "no one will snatch them out of my hand", which doesn't mean YOU can't walk away. I also think about parables like Matthew 18:21-35. What's the point except that you could lose forgiveness? Or Matthew 24:13 which implies you may not stand firm to the end, and therefore not be saved. None of the passages used to support OSAS preclude the option of you freely choosing to walk away from God.

What does OSAS mean for free will? Do we lose the ability to choose when we are born again?

The other issue I have is that OSAS undermines your confidence. If you fall away, what would people say? Likely that you were not a true believer in the first place. So how do you know you won't fall away?

On the other hand, I know that right now I am trusting Jesus for forgiveness, so I know I am okay.

I may be wrong, but this is an interesting discussion topic :)
 
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DeaconDean

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Jesus didn't say we wouldn't fall away, he said, "no one will snatch them out of my hand", which doesn't mean YOU can't walk away.

Here again, it does say "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." But if you walk away, that means your more powerful than God.

The other issue I have is that OSAS undermines your confidence. If you fall away, what would people say? Likely that you were not a true believer in the first place. So how do you know you won't fall away?

On the other hand, I know that right now I am trusting Jesus for forgiveness, so I know I am okay.

I may be wrong, but this is an interesting discussion topic :)

The word is assurance.

Also, see the parable of the sower. Some people may look like Christians, some people may talk like Christians, some may even point to works they have done, but in the end, they show they were never saved to begin with because:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DW1980

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Here again, it does say "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." But if you walk away, that means your more powerful than God.



The word is assurance.

Also, see the parable of the sower. Some people may look like Christians, some people may talk like Christians, some may even point to works they have done, but in the end, they show they were never saved to begin with because:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks, this is interesting :)

I read 1 John 2 differently, this verse is about antichrists who were never Christians in the first place. Verses 21-22 say, "I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." So does this apply to someone who does profess Jesus is the Christ, but at some point down the line rejects God?

I see nothing in Scripture that says you cannot choose to walk away, either through willful sin, converting to another faith, etc. How would you interpret these verses (some of the ones that convinced me OSAS is not right)?

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Colossians 1:21-23)

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 Peter 2:20-22) (This specifically states that they have escaped by knowing Jesus, not merely know about him)

See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? (Hebrews 12:25)

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

This (and many other verses) is why I think you can give up salvation (maybe "lose" is a bad choice of word, because if you remain in Christ you are of course secure!).

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this :)
 
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DW1980

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@DW1980, while it does say no one can snatch you from the hand of Jesus, you are someone, and therefore cannot snatch yourself from His hand. I’m pretty sure no one includes yourself.

True, but doesn't "snatching" suggest being forcefully taken from Christ? To me that's not the same as using your freedom to choose to leave. And that fits with the other Scriptures I cited.

Again, I may be wrong. I came to this after years away from Church myself. Before I went back, I read the entire Bible by myself, and that was an interesting experience. OSAS was one of the things I ended up questioning, as I read and prayed, I saw many Scriptures that seemed to conflict with OSAS - some of these are above. In my mind it went hand in hand with free will. I could only reconcile it in one of two ways:
  1. We have free will, therefore in the light of these Scriptures, OSAS cannot be right unless we revoke our free will when we are born again.
  2. We don't have free will at all, it's all down to predestination. But that doesn't seem to fit with lots of other things the Bible says.
Does this make sense? I'm hoping I'm explaining myself properly!
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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True, but doesn't "snatching" suggest being forcefully taken from Christ? To me that's not the same as using your freedom to choose to leave. And that fits with the other Scriptures I cited.

Again, I may be wrong. I came to this after years away from Church myself. Before I went back, I read the entire Bible by myself, and that was an interesting experience. OSAS was one of the things I ended up questioning, as I read and prayed, I saw many Scriptures that seemed to conflict with OSAS - some of these are above. In my mind it went hand in hand with free will. I could only reconcile it in one of two ways:
  1. We have free will, therefore in the light of these Scriptures, OSAS cannot be right unless we revoke our free will when we are born again.
  2. We don't have free will at all, it's all down to predestination. But that doesn't seem to fit with lots of other things the Bible says.
Does this make sense? I'm hoping I'm explaining myself properly!

Free will and predestination are mutually exclusive. Calvinists believe people have free will, in the compatiblist sense, and Arminians (at least those of the Classical variety) recognize that God does predestine to some degree.

Calvinists define free will as humans have the freedom to make choices, but can only choose according to what they desire most, with the condition of their heart, and that man will naturally choose to disobey God unless the Holy Spirit intervenes and transforms the person’s heart.

Arminian is still recognize that man is totally depraved and that it is the Holy Spirit that initiates salvation by opening up the person’s heart, and that God still elects, but chose to do it on the basis of foreseen faith.
 
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DW1980

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Free will and predestination are mutually exclusive. Calvinists believe people have free will, in the compatiblist sense, and Arminians (at least those of the Classical variety) recognize that God does predestine to some degree.

Calvinists define free will as humans have the freedom to make choices, but can only choose according to what they desire most, with the condition of their heart, and that man will naturally choose to disobey God unless the Holy Spirit intervenes and transforms the person’s heart.

Arminian is still recognize that man is totally depraved and that it is the Holy Spirit that initiates salvation by opening up the person’s heart, and that God still elects, but chose to do it on the basis of foreseen faith.

That's a whole other conversation, but equally as interesting! I concluded we do have free will because 2 Peter 3:9 says, "...he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

If it's any form of predestination, surely God's will would be done? Whether God elects, or the Holy Spirit initiates/intervenes, that would then be God's call, right?

If we have free will, and don't give that up when we became Christians, surely that same free will could be used to choose to walk away?
 
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DeaconDean

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One other point along with 1 Jn. 2:19.

Consider John 6.

"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." -Jn. 6:64-69 (KJV)

Here were "disciples" (students mind you) that walked with Jesus, saw the miracles, listened to Jesus preach and teach, yet were never "saved" to begin with.

Now, regarding the Hebrews passage, "apostasy" especially in Hebrews 6, please read:

Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, "Apostasy".

Something to remember, to whom was the epistle written to?

The name of the Epistle gives it away.

The time of the writing is a dead give away too.

The Jews, especially Jewish Christians risked everything prior to the destruction of the temple. Persecution from the Romans, persecution form their own people, especially when they turned away from Judaism, to Christianity. Prior to the destruction of the temple, it would have been a realitively easy matter, to revert back to Judaism. To go back to the temple and offer sacrifices for sin.

However, as it says, when come to the knowledge of Christ, and God's plan of salvation as Christ being the ultimate sacrifice for sin, reverting back to Judaism meant nothing because "their remaineth no sacrifice for sin".

And Pink's commentary on Hebrews 10, is well worth reading also.

If a person keeps on sinning, even after the point of salvation, it also shows they weren't really saved to begin with.

""For if we sin willfully." "The word sin here is plainly used in a somewhat peculiar sense. It is descriptive not of sin generally, but of a particular kind of sin,—apostasy from the faith and profession of the truth, once known and professed. ‘The angels that sinned’ are the apostate angels. The apostasy described is not so much an act of apostasy as a state of apostasy. It is not, ‘If we have sinned, if we have apostatized’; but ‘If we sin, if we apostatize, if we continue in apostasy’" (John Brown). English translators prior to the A.V. read "If we sin willingly," the change being made in 1611, to avoid giving countenance to the supposition that there is no recovery after any voluntary sin. The Greek word will not permit of this change: the only other occurrence of it in 1 Peter 5:2, clearly gives its scope: "Taking the oversight not by constraint, but willingly."

"For if we sin willingly," that is voluntarily, of our own accord, where no constraint is used. The reference is to a definite decision, where an individual deliberately determines to abandon Christ and turn away from God. "In the Jewish law, as is indeed the case everywhere, a distinction is made between sins of oversight, inadvertence, or ignorance (Lev. 4:2, 13, 22; 5:15; Numbers 15:24, 27-29: compare Acts 3:17, 17:30), and sins of presumption, sins that are deliberately and intentionally committed: see Exodus 21:14, Numbers 15:30, Deuteronomy 17:12, Psalm 19:13. The apostle here has reference, evidently, to such a distinction, and means to speak of a decided and deliberate purpose to break away from the restraints and obligations of the Christian religion" (A. Barnes).

"For if we sin willingly," etc. Who are the ones that are here warned against this terrible sin? Who are they that are in danger of committing it? The answer is, all who make a profession of faith in the Lord Jesus. But are genuine Christians in any such danger? Looked at from the standpoint of God’s everlasting covenant, which He made with them in the person of their Sponsor, which covenant is "ordered in all things and sure;"—no. Looked at according to their standing and state in Christ, as those who have been "perfected forever" (Heb. 10:14);—no. But considered as they are in themselves, mutable creatures (as was un-fallen Adam), without any strength of their own;—yes. Viewed as those who still have the sinful nature within them,—yes. Contemplated as those who are yet the objects of Satan’s relentless attacks,—yes. But it may be said, "God sees His people only in Christ." Not so, is the reply. Were that the case, He would never chasten (Heb. 12:5-10) us! God views the Christian both in Christ legally and in this world actually. He addresses us as responsible beings (2 Pet. 1:10) and regulates the manifestations of His love for us according to our conduct (John 14:23)."

Source

"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Colossians 1:21-23)"

Here again, does this passage speak saying that "you continue in your faith" is work man does on his own.

That is how I take it the way you are presenting it.

The day I quit relying on the Holy Spirit, and rely on my own works, my own faith, that's the day I go to hell.

Like I said, after Acts 1, everything in the New Testament teaches the Christian about being led by the Spirit. Not self.

God Bless

TIll all are one.
 
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twin1954

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The Bible teaches neither eternal security nor once saved always saved. What it teaches is perseverance of the saints. Eternal security and once saved always saved implies that you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do and gives a false sense of assurance.

Perseverance of the saints means that all true believers will persevere to the end because they are kept by the Spitit in faith. They fall and fail but always are upheld by the Spirit until the end.
Jude 24.
 
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DeaconDean

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The Bible teaches neither eternal security nor once saved always saved. What it teaches is perseverance of the saints. Eternal security and once saved always saved implies that you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do and gives a false sense of assurance.

Perseverance of the saints means that all true believers will persevere to the end because they are kept by the Spitit in faith. They fall and fail but always are upheld by the Spirit until the end.
Jude 24.

Very true!

Even though I am a supporter of OSAS, I have never argued that even after the point of salvation, a saved, redeemed in Christ can sin all they want to because its covered.

We (the Redeemed) have solemn promises that if we were to walk away, the Good Shepherd would come seek us out, and that God would also chastise us until we came back.

Furthermore, I'd like somebody to name one person that was put into the hands of God for His care, that God eventually lost.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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The doctrine of eternal security goes by various names, including Once Saved, Always Saved, or preserverance of the saints, and there is also conditional security, which isn’t exactly the same thing.

I think Baptists, at least old Fundie types, would view eternal security and once saved always saved as different from perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance simply explained refers to the idea that Christians will struggle on earth with sin but that sin will never cause us to fall away from the faith permanently, that God's grace will restore us time and time again. We actually work out our faith in this world and as the 1689 reads,

"This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. "

When I read eternal security and OSAS I'm reminded of the older antinomian Baptists that believe you can live like the devil and still be saved. That you can just make a profession of faith and that's it, you are eternally secure, because you believe once you are always saved based on that one decision.

I obviously believe in perseverance of the saints and abhor the other two doctrines as I have defined them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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PamCAID

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The doctrine of eternal security goes by various names, including Once Saved, Always Saved, or preserverance of the saints, and there is also conditional security, which isn’t exactly the same thing.

What are your thoughts on this doctrine, and how do you define it?

Fellow Baptists (and other Christians who happen to be browsing this thread) what are your thoughts?

Hello!

I was raised Baptist and pretty much just accepted OSAS because it sounded like something God would do. When I started reading the Bible for myself and setting aside my commentaries, I was amazed at how many passages talked about enduring, persevering, obeying, etc. Yikes! So which is it?

Two years ago I believe I was led into the truth. I was so overtaken by this understanding that I made own website just to get the word out! I'm not a debater, so if you disagree, that's fine; but maybe you'd be interested in checking out the home page at my site churchageisdifferent.

God bless you either way!
 
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DeaconDean

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I use to believe in OSAS however now I do not.
Currently, I attend a Baptist church, some people accept OSAS and others do not.
We do not focus on it but on Christ.

God bless

Well then, if you "focus" you cannot help but to believe in either Perseverance of the Saints or OSAS.

See the "parable of the Good Shepherd".

See the "Parable of the Prodigal Son".

Consult 1 Jn. 2:19.

Consult Hebrews 12.

But above all, what scripture, Perseverance, and OSAS basically teaches, is we may stray from God, but if you are saved, God will never ever lose on of His own. And above all, this stands opposed to antinomianism. (lawlessness)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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I think Baptists, at least old Fundie types, would view eternal security and once saved always saved as different from perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance simply explained refers to the idea that Christians will struggle on earth with sin but that sin will never cause us to fall away from the faith permanently, that God's grace will restore us time and time again. We actually work out our faith in this world and as the 1689 reads,

"This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. "

When I read eternal security and OSAS I'm reminded of the older antinomian Baptists that believe you can live like the devil and still be saved. That you can just make a profession of faith and that's it, you are eternally secure, because you believe once you are always saved based on that one decision.

I obviously believe in perseverance of the saints and abhor the other two doctrines as I have defined them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I don’t really disagree with perserverance of saints and even though the SBC officially teaches eternal security or OSAS, many members don’t treat it that differently from perserverance of saints, especially those with Calvinistic leanings.

I agree that OSAS is an oversimplification and the doctrine is not always taught as well as it should, which could potentially lead to an antinomian lifestyle, but OSAS is really defined as the belief that a believer can, in theory, still lose their salvation or fully apostasize, but the power and influence of the Holy Spirit prevents that by overcoming the individual’s sinful desire.
 
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SakraNomoko

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Another good passage to add to this discussion is Mark 3:28-29

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

And as evidence against the position that such people were never Christians in the first place is Romans 10:8-10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
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