Just give your short explanation, I don't read minds?
I don't see how the three events can be separated, they are all in the same context in the chapter?
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Daniel 9:27 The Abomination Of Desolation, When Did Or Will This Take Place?
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I don't see how the three events can be separated, they are all in the same context in the chapter?
This is not hard to understand. The AOD was a prior event that was first committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes when he defiled the temple. This is why the passage of Matthew 24:15 has the parenthesized statement "let the reader understand". If the reader doesn't understand the AOD of Antiochus, they will not know what it is.
Luke 21:20 simplifies it as Luke's writing doesn't identify the AOD but makes it plain saying:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
The AOD is the defiling of the temple, as the temple contained the "Holy Place" and "The Most Holy Place" which only the Levitical priests were allowed to enter. In AD 70 when the Romans finally breached the walls and enter the city they eventually entered the temple. From the writings of Josephus it is recorded that when the Romans entered the temple and began to destroy it, flames shot out, and the Jews screamed and fought even harder. Many to their own death.
That was the AOD repeated by the Romans, as they not only defiled the temple...but completely destroyed it , just as Jesus prophesied. This is what the reader needs to understand of Matthew 24:15. The disciples clearly understood what Jesus meant as Hanukkah is a celebration of the cleansing of temple that Antiochus IV defiled it. The temple was reclaimed in Maccabean revolt. Something the Jews have always celebrated since the temple was retaken from Antiochus and finally rededicated to God after being cleansed.
Here's a nice reference to the history of Hanukkah:
The Story of Chanukah
The clue Jesus gave Peter, James and John was when they see the Abomination of Desolation which Daniel had prophesied, they were to flee the city. At that point the destruction of the temple was imminent! Jerusalem would be destroyed and the temple defiled.
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Luke 21:20 simplifies it as Luke's writing doesn't identify the AOD but makes it plain saying:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
The AOD is the defiling of the temple, as the temple contained the "Holy Place" and "The Most Holy Place" which only the Levitical priests were allowed to enter. In AD 70 when the Romans finally breached the walls and enter the city they eventually entered the temple. From the writings of Josephus it is recorded that when the Romans entered the temple and began to destroy it, flames shot out, and the Jews screamed and fought even harder. Many to their own death.
That was the AOD repeated by the Romans, as they not only defiled the temple...but completely destroyed it , just as Jesus prophesied. This is what the reader needs to understand of Matthew 24:15. The disciples clearly understood what Jesus meant as Hanukkah is a celebration of the cleansing of temple that Antiochus IV defiled it. The temple was reclaimed in Maccabean revolt. Something the Jews have always celebrated since the temple was retaken from Antiochus and finally rededicated to God after being cleansed.
Here's a nice reference to the history of Hanukkah:
The Story of Chanukah
The clue Jesus gave Peter, James and John was when they see the Abomination of Desolation which Daniel had prophesied, they were to flee the city. At that point the destruction of the temple was imminent! Jerusalem would be destroyed and the temple defiled.
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I strongly disagree.
1. Jesus isn't going to speak prophetically all through Matthew 24, and reference your claimed Antiochus that was fulfilled as he spoke.
2. The Abomination Of Desolation and Great Tribe are in the same time frame, you believewere fulfilled in 66-70AD.
Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows the "Future Second Advent" and direct association to the Great Tribulation in verse 21
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
"They shall see the Son of Man coming"
You can't have a future second advent, and 66-70AD Great Tribulation.
I guess you deny the second advent is seen in the verses, to lay a false foundation for 66-70AD fulfillment?
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If you are not willing to do your own homework on John 10:22 and Hanukkah and you want me to agree with what you are saying, it would be a waste of time.
Your viewpoint of the "Abomination of Desolation" must be built on historical facts, instead of opinion.
I presented the historical evidence to you in the past, and you did not want to hear it.
I have shown how Luke's Gospel reveals the timeline of the Olivet Discourse, and you did not want to hear it either, because it destroys your viewpoint.
Arguing based only on opinion is like arguing over the color of bigfoot, without any evidence that bigfoot actually exists.
Each year millions of hunters take to the forests of the world to harvest game, and not one of them has ever killed a bigfoot, and presented the evidence for the world to see.
When you find a stuffed bigfoot, let me know because I want to see the evidence. Also, be ready to submit a DNA sample to confirm the new species.
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John Prewett
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This thread is a testimony to the futility of trying to correlate other books of the bible to the Revelation.
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Fulfilled
I know this was not addressed to me here, but since you did address these very questions to me in another thread, and have since yet to respond to my answers, I'll answer them here with the hopes you wont ignore them again.
Since you keep asking the questions I've already answered, I assume you still want folks to answer them, even though some of us have, many times.
You don't have to like or agree with the answers, but it would be fair for you to at least aknowledge and addres them, no?
How long is Immediately to God? 2000 years
How long is Shortly to God? 2000 years
How long is Soon to God? 2000 years
How far is Near to God? 2000 years
It seems very clear to me that you are not understanding these phrases as they are biblically used.
First, you emphasize that he will be "seen coming with clouds" as stated in Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. But didn't you notice that this very event is described in Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a heavenly event and no earthly one? Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. john is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead.
Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses are always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:
*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16)
*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece and blew His trumpet (Zechariah 9:13-16);
*Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2);
*Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10);
*Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5);
*Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).
So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).
Again, The cloud-coming of Rev 1:7 that every eye was to see is cleary depicted by St. John in Rev 14:14-20 -- obviously not a physical/literal event.
Also, I have to continue to assert that those who think that seeing Christ's return must be a physical/literal incarnation of some kind are simply not reading the Old Testament. One can't hardly read five chapters of the Old Testamnent with out coming across a depiction of Yahweh showing up on earth and performing some event that is described as physical/literal (try Isa 34 or 2 Sam 22:8-16 for example). Or how about this TYPICAL statement:
Zechariah 9:13-14
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. And JEHOVAH SHALL BE SEEN OVER THEM, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning:...
Yet Yahweh never did any of those things is a physical literal way. We are even told MANY times that all people would marvel at Yahweh's comings. This is jewish apocalyptic language and was the norm for how they understood and knew of God's appearings. It's only when we, who are thousands of years removed from this language and culture, apply fanciful modern interpretations that would have been completely foreign to the Prophets and Apostles, that our imaginations can lead us into such wild and erroneous conclusions, totally unrecognizable to the apostles, as you appear to have done.
Now its your turn..
Tell me, Where does scripture teach you to interpret OT phrases such as "Yahweh rides a swift cloud" and "was seen by the eyes of all nations" metaphorically, but then do a complete 180 degree about face and interpret NT phrases such as "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" Literally?
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Really? Start with why Jesus even did the Olivet Discourse. You may say you strongly disagree but it's the questions the disciples asked to which Jesus responded.
They were showing Jesus the beautiful buildings and the temple and Jesus told them they would all be destroyed. They respond with these questions in Matthew 24:3:
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
This starts the whole discourse. You want to say what Jesus won't do, yet its recorded in scripture.
The fact that you don't understand Jesus came in judgement, is where you're losing yourself.
In Matthew 24 29 Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13:10. When you go there you find this is the prophecy of judgement against Babylon. That is the context of judgement as God used the Medes to judge them. Jesus is going to judge Jerusalem by the Romans.
This is not Christ's 2nd Advent...it's Christ coming in judgement. You can't or don't want to see it.
The 2nd advent is in Matthew 25:31-46.
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You should be looking at this from the Jewish mind. Remember they don't think Christ is Messiah, therefore to them the temple is of great significance. They continue to sacrifice because to them, the temple is still holy.
Jesus had told them in Matthew 23:37-38 their house would be left desolate. The disciples, not understanding, begin showing Jesus the beauty of the temple, when Jesus tells them it would all be destroyed.
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Correct.
Our friends are going to have to face the biblical reality of AD 70 as stated here:
Matthew 21:40-45
When the Lord therefore of the Vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
This event, This particular, unique "coming of the Lord to destroy those wicked men" was what the apostles had in mind when they promised their disciples the following:
-------------
Hebrews 10:37
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand...the time is come that judgment must begin
James 5:3, 8-9
[you rich ones]... it is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!...the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
Romans 13:11-12
salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near.
1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared--from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us
Revelation 1:1,3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand.
Matthew 23:34-36; 24:34
I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation...So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
-------------
It's really quite simple. They expected the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard and the Stone to crush their enemies and give the kingdom to a new nation, the Church (Matt 21:40-45). They were not here speaking of the end of the Cosmos, but the end of the Old Testamental period and the dawn of the New Testamental age of Christ's Church and Kingdom.
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klutedavid
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Hello Truth7t7.
Just look at the two passages below, they are identical. Matthew just compresses the two events together, the end of Israel and the end of the world.
Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
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I'm going to report you for harassment if you keep this up friend.
If you are going to quote my post, then ADDRESS MY POST IN YOUR REPLY.
Thats how it works round these parts. It's really quite simple.
Personal attacks are against forum rules.
You are not my father, not my boss, not the "CF Catholic Cop" and clearly do not respect my right to express myself however I choose, the way Christian Forums respects my (and your) right to express myself (and yourself) however I (or you) choose.
I demanded you change your nauseating eyesore of an avatar tongue in cheek the other day in response to your ridiculous demands of me to change mine, and then I simly let it go.
I also changed my avatar to something less "loud" the other day as it pleased me to do. I may keep it for a year. I may change it to something completely different and decidely un catholic tomorrow, If I choose to.
I like Motorcycles and Guitars. Maybe I'll find an avatar of one of those to use.
Neither of which are Catholic in nature. Both of which catholics like myself all over the world enjoy freely, without fear of reprisal for not being "catholic enough" by nosey, self serving protestants who have no business telling Catholics how to be Catholic.
Quit being a jerk.
Go Kick Rocks.
Mind your own business.
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Indeed.
These are two separate accounts of the EXACT SAME DISCOURSE Given by Jesus, covering the EXACT SAME TOPIC.
In both passages we have the Exact Same "WHEN", the exact same "DESOLATION", the exact same time to "THEN FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS", the exact same "TRIBULATION/DISTRESS UPON THE LAND AND PEOPLE" that took place on the exact same "THOSE DAYS".
Parallel passages such as these can not be interpreted to have polar opposite fulfillments from one another. Such is purely a man made invention and can be found nowhere in the pages of Holy Scripture.
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Did the "post cross" temple serve a useful purpose here?:
Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul sure seems to think so.
Was He wrong?
And of course, the writer of Hebrews concurrs with your assessment that, as of the 50's AD, the Old Covenant was indeed "obsolete" but was still in force and had yet to Vanish. (Hebrews 8:13) In AD70, it came to it's firey end, on time, as prophesied.
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