No rapture removes us from the earth

keras said:

Daniel 12:9-10 is the reality: NO-ONE will understand until the last days.

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From that (il)logic, Peter, Paul, John, and the other NT writers did not understand, because they were not living in the last days.

Christ Himself did not understand, because He was not living in the last days.

Doug Melven said:

1 Thessalonians disagrees with your interpretation.
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And Revelation too.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

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That's what men's doctrines do, twist the simplicity of God's Holy Writ, which is what you are doing.

Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

Acts 1:9-12
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

The Zechariah 14 event is what that Acts 1 testimony of Jesus' return to the Mount of Olivet is about. That is the same timing of the 1 Thess.4 event of the asleep saints being brought with Jesus when He comes, and the alive saints being "caught up" and gathered with Him on the way to Jerusalem to the Mount of Olives.

As for the Revelation 21:1 verse, there is more proof of an existing earth in the very next... verse!

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

The idea of God destroying the earth is covered by Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3. The "elements" Peter described involve man's works being burned off the surface of this earth, not the earth being literally turned into an asteroid belt and being no more. Just as God once cleansed the surface with a flood in the days of Noah, God is going to cleanse the surface of this earth again in our future, this next time with a consuming fire. It will not totally destroy this earth, but only cleanse the surface of man's works and usher us into the next world age of Christ's future reign with His elect.

Davy said:

The idea of God destroying the earth is covered by Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3. The "elements" Peter described involve man's works being burned off the surface of this earth, not the earth being literally turned into an asteroid belt and being no more.

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I don't think it will be an asteroid belt, but it will be dissolved.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This verse doesn't say the earth and the works are the same.
But it does say the earth also and what is in it.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

I don't know about you, but when I change a garment, I don't fold the old one up and just put it back on again.
I take the old one off and put a new garment on.

jgr said:

From that (il)logic, Peter, Paul, John, and the other NT writers did not understand, because they were not living in the last days.

Christ Himself did not understand, because He was not living in the last days.

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Correct: Only God knew His plans for the end of this Christian era.
Matthew 24:36...no-one knows, but the Father alone.

The Apostles did make prophesies, but they couldn't fully understand what God led them to write, just like the OT prophets were. Ezekiel 20:49

Speculation, confusion and outright lies have been the way of everyone who has tried to explain the Bible prophesies. There is plenty of evidence of this on the prophecy forums.
But God does want a few to know and He will lift a corner of the veil for those who clear their minds of the man taught falsehoods, those who carefully study all the Prophetic Word, who prayerfully and humbly ask for understanding.

keras said in post #60:

‘They preach prosperity, the prosperity theology that gives a sense of false security and escape from tribulation’, The very wrong and pretentious idea of a pre tribulation rapture, that lulls people into thinking they need do nothing.

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib Christians begin to suffer in the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken His (supposed) promise, that He has pulled the rug out from under them, that He lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be unprepared to face the long Tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some Christians unprepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the Church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future Tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus Christ's Second Coming, immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

jgr said in post #61:

From that (il)logic, Peter, Paul, John, and the other NT writers did not understand, because they were not living in the last days.

Christ Himself did not understand, because He was not living in the last days.

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That brought to mind:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Before His resurrection, Jesus Christ didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of His future, Second Coming (Mark 13:32). But He knew that He will return "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And He knew that the Tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The reason that Jesus Christ didn't know, before His resurrection, the date of His Second Coming (Mark 13:32), was because at His incarnation (John 1:1,14), He temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) His divine omniscience with regard to His own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32), in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17), and to be tempted in every way which we are tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, He still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14; 1 Timothy 3:16). And after His physical resurrection into human immortality (Luke 24:39), He regained His divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as He regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). So now He does know the date of His Second Coming.

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Also, Christians coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus Christ's Second Coming will help Christians to endure patiently during the worst time of the future Tribulation for Christians. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of Christians, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this, if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (compare the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the freezing cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help Christians, during the worst time of the future Tribulation for Christians, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

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Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur, and blessed are those Christians who will wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus Christ's Second Coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel), and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' Second Coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

keras said:

Correct: Only God knew His plans for the end of this Christian era.
Matthew 24:36...no-one knows, but the Father alone.

The Apostles did make prophesies, but they couldn't fully understand what God led them to write, just like the OT prophets were. Ezekiel 20:49

Speculation, confusion and outright lies have been the way of everyone who has tried to explain the Bible prophesies. There is plenty of evidence of this on the prophecy forums.
But God does want a few to know and He will lift a corner of the veil for those who clear their minds of the man taught falsehoods, those who carefully study all the Prophetic Word, who prayerfully and humbly ask for understanding.

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So when Peter said this...:

2 Peter 1:19
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

...he did not understand that he in fact did not have a more sure word of prophecy?

jgr said:

So when Peter said this...:
2 Peter 1:19
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.
...he did not understand that he in fact did not have a more sure word of prophecy?

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This is a useless comment, by someone who wants to throw all prophecy into the history bin.

I'm sure Peter would have know that what he spoke of, like 2 Peter 3:7- of a future judgement; punishment of the world by fire, would happen long after he was dead.
But Peter tells us to pray for it and hasten it on! 2 Peter 3:12

keras said:

The Apostles did make prophesies, but they couldn't fully understand what God led them to write, just like the OT prophets were. Ezekiel 20:49

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I've cited the following often, but they cannot be ignored. Did Christ, and Paul (one of the apostles whom you say couldn't fully understand) know what they were talking about? What was it?

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

keras said:

someone who wants to throw all prophecy into the history bin

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Slight correction: someone who wants to throw all false prophecy into the trash bin

jgr said:

Slight correction: someone who wants to throw all false prophecy into the trash bin

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Where in the Bible is false prophecy?

All things must be fulfilled by Jesus. Some things have been, the rest await fulfilment.

keras said:

Where in the Bible is false prophecy?

All things must be fulfilled by Jesus. Some things have been, the rest await fulfilment.

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You've provided the clue. False prophecy attempts to turn some of the "all things" defined in the cited Scriptures into "the rest".

Let's consider an example. Does Daniel 9:24 represent all things, or some things? Is it all fulfilled, or only some fulfilled, or not at all fulfilled?

Bible2+ said:

That brought to mind:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Before His resurrection, Jesus Christ didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of His future, Second Coming (Mark 13:32). But He knew that He will return "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And He knew that the Tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The reason that Jesus Christ didn't know, before His resurrection, the date of His Second Coming (Mark 13:32), was because at His incarnation (John 1:1,14), He temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) His divine omniscience with regard to His own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32), in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17), and to be tempted in every way which we are tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, He still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14; 1 Timothy 3:16). And after His physical resurrection into human immortality (Luke 24:39), He regained His divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as He regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). So now He does know the date of His Second Coming.

-

Also, Christians coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus Christ's Second Coming will help Christians to endure patiently during the worst time of the future Tribulation for Christians. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of Christians, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this, if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (compare the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the freezing cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help Christians, during the worst time of the future Tribulation for Christians, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

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This really does sound reasonable and logical, the problem is it goes against what Jesus said.
Jesus said of all that bad stuff that would happen in Matthew 24 that it would all occur before that generation passed away.
And as for the idea that people who believe in a pre-trib rapture would be lulled into not doing anything flat out denies what Jesus said.
Jesus said those who think there Lord will delay His coming will start to live ungodly.
So then He said we should watch and pray because we do not know when He will come back.
Then we have the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish concluding with this verse
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Christians have been called to suffering. Knowing that He will return at a specific date is not what helps us through tribulation and trials but knowing that God is always with us to give us grace and strength to overcome.
His imminent return urges us to live godly as in Titus 2:11-13
2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
And Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Doug Melven said in post #72:

Jesus said of all that bad stuff that would happen in Matthew 24 that it would all occur before that generation passed away.

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Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the future Tribulation, and Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which He would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the Tribulation, Second Coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming in the 1st century AD. For none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: that is, 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2027, or 2067. And if the Tribulation which will immediately precede the Second Coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the Tribulation's 1st year won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Doug Melven said in post #72:

Jesus said those who think there Lord will delay His coming will start to live ungodly.

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In Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the Tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" His return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when Christians know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Doug Melven said in post #72:

So then He said we should watch and pray because we do not know when He will come back.

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In the Bible, when Christians are told to "watch" for Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with their eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

Christians are to keep spiritually awake as they wait for Jesus' Second Coming. For if they fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that they will recover their right relationship with Jesus before His Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if they fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that they will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a Christian isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that Christian will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, (again) even when Christians know the truth that Jesus Christ's Second Coming won't occur until "immediately after" the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Doug Melven said in post #72:

[Titus]
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

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In Titus 2:13, Jesus Christ's glorious appearing is His future, Second Coming, when He will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the Christian hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus Himself is the hope of Christians (1 Timothy 1:1b), for He Himself is eternal life (John 14:6). And only by believing in Him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the future Tribulation instead of Jesus Christ's Second Coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the Tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She is not hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

jgr said:

You've provided the clue. False prophecy attempts to turn some of the "all things" defined in the cited Scriptures into "the rest".

Let's consider an example. Does Daniel 9:24 represent all things, or some things? Is it all fulfilled, or only some fulfilled, or not at all fulfilled?

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Jesus said: Let not your heart be troubled....I will come again and take you to Myself. John 14:1-3 Obviously this awaits fulfilment.

Daniel 9:24-26 is not totally fulfilled. Only the 7 'weeks' and the 62 'weeks' are. Total 69; one more to go.

It is false teaching of Bible prophecy that the Lord objects to. 2 Peter 2:1-3, James 3:1

keras said:

Jesus said: Let not your heart be troubled....I will come again and take you to Myself. John 14:1-3 Obviously this awaits fulfilment.

Daniel 9:24-26 is not totally fulfilled. Only the 7 'weeks' and the 62 'weeks' are. Total 69; one more to go.

It is false teaching of Bible prophecy that the Lord objects to. 2 Peter 2:1-3, James 3:1

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According to the aforecited declarations by Christ and Paul in Luke 24 and Acts 13, Daniel 9:24 has been fulfilled, because it is "concerning me", that is, Christ. (Luke 24:44).

An attempt to deny and futurize an already fulfilled prophecy constitutes false prophecy.

Bible2+ said:

Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the future Tribulation, and Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which He would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the Tribulation, Second Coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming in the 1st century AD. For none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: that is, 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2027, or 2067. And if the Tribulation which will immediately precede the Second Coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the Tribulation's 1st year won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).



In Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the Tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" His return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when Christians know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

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You refer to the "reestablishment of Israel".

This is Israel:

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Genetically, the entire human race on planet earth. How does God distinguish and identify His Own Israel?

The same way He always, and only ever, has -- by their faith and obedience.

Bible2+ said:

In the Bible, when Christians are told to "watch" for Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with their eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

Christians are to keep spiritually awake as they wait for Jesus' Second Coming. For if they fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that they will recover their right relationship with Jesus before His Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if they fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that they will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a Christian isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that Christian will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, (again) even when Christians know the truth that Jesus Christ's Second Coming won't occur until "immediately after" the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).



In Titus 2:13, Jesus Christ's glorious appearing is His future, Second Coming, when He will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the Christian hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus Himself is the hope of Christians (1 Timothy 1:1b), for He Himself is eternal life (John 14:6). And only by believing in Him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the future Tribulation instead of Jesus Christ's Second Coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the Tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She is not hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

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Have it your way.
Just don't be surprised when Jesus comes for you before the Great Tribulation.

sdowney717 said:

Or they are so deceived, they think the coming antichrist is Christ returned and worship the beast.
We gets lots of warnings about that, what Christ says about His return is critically important, something not to be deceived about. The last days of the last days will be full of satanic deceptions. He comes on the clouds,
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

He does not just appear on the earth in the desert, or a city etc... as will the false christ. the false christ will be met with worldwide approval, when the true Christ returns , with mourning by the world.

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For the very Scriptures you quote shows why it would be foolish for someone to be deceived into thinking He already came.
And if they are so easily deceived into thinking He has already come and so they say there faith is overthrown, I doubt if they had faith to begin with.
Whether or not you believe in a pre-trib of post-trib resurrection, this reason does not apply.