All Israel is saved

Buzz_B said:

You see, the problem I have with that concept of their having no understanding is two-fold. One is that if that were true then they would all fall just as we have.

But:
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

So i believe you are wrong that angels could not understand beforehand.

Click to expand...

I add this perspective.

The Word of God, is simply KNOWLEDGE that is TRUTH.

The Host of Heaven, ie spirits, were created Having the Knowledge of the Truth of God.

But NOT with complete UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE.

Mankind was created WITHOUT the KNOWLEDGE or TRUTH of God.

Also mankind was given opportunity to hear and learn, and receive FORGIVENESS, for not being born Standing in believe in Gods Word of Truth.

The Heavenly Host, has no opportunity for forgiveness, once they Stand Against Gods Word of Truth.

UNDERSTANDING comes from God Himself, given to His Faithful Servants.

The Heavenly Host, like mankind, can make choices. Stand with Gods Word of Truth, or stand against Gods Word of Truth.

Those who Stand With God in His Truth, are they who CAN and SO receive Gods Understanding....Those who reject, forego go receiving His Understanding.

Satan can absolutely know the Scriptures, spoken and written....but shall forever be fooled; because he is forever separated from God, and thus does not receive understanding of the Word of God.

A prime examle of Satan's own foolishness, was him trying to Tempt Jesus....when Satan was without understanding, when he was trying to BARGIN LAND, with Jesus, which Already belongs to Jesus.

God Bless,
SBC

ClementofA said:

The sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally.

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A living soul that is Against the Word of God, is a living soul that is accounted as Dead to God, as are ALL THINGS dead to God, that are separated from God.

No souls have "physically died" nor will they.
Souls are not "natural mortal things".

All souls have life IN THEM, and are ALL living, whether with God or separated from God.....whether IN a body or out of a body.

Out of body souls, that NEVER believed in the Word of God, while IN their body....
Are living souls, that shall have Life from God departed out of the souls.....and the
Body and soul .... not killed, not dead....
But rather shall be destroyed, in hell.

Matt 10:28

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

A living soul that is Against the Word of God, is a living soul that is accounted as Dead to God, as are ALL THINGS dead to God, that are separated from God.

No souls have "physically died" nor will they.
Souls are not "natural mortal things".

All souls have life IN THEM, and are ALL living, whether with God or separated from God.....whether IN a body or out of a body.

Out of body souls, that NEVER believed in the Word of God, while IN their body....
Are living souls, that shall have Life from God departed out of the souls.....and the
Body and soul .... not killed, not dead....
But rather shall be destroyed, in hell.

Matt 10:28

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

ClementofA said:

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

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You are preaching God shall claim dead bodies, and make them saved, without them having "given" their living body to God?

IS that correct?



God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

I add this perspective.

The Word of God, is simply KNOWLEDGE that is TRUTH.

The Host of Heaven, ie spirits, were created Having the Knowledge of the Truth of God.

But NOT with complete UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE.

Mankind was created WITHOUT the KNOWLEDGE or TRUTH of God.

Also mankind was given opportunity to hear and learn, and receive FORGIVENESS, for not being born Standing in believe in Gods Word of Truth.

The Heavenly Host, has no opportunity for forgiveness, once they Stand Against Gods Word of Truth.

UNDERSTANDING comes from God Himself, given to His Faithful Servants.

The Heavenly Host, like mankind, can make choices. Stand with Gods Word of Truth, or stand against Gods Word of Truth.

Those who Stand With God in His Truth, are they who CAN and SO receive Gods Understanding....Those who reject, forego go receiving His Understanding.

Satan can absolutely know the Scriptures, spoken and written....but shall forever be fooled; because he is forever separated from God, and thus does not receive understanding of the Word of God.

A prime examle of Satan's own foolishness, was him trying to Tempt Jesus....when Satan was without understanding, when he was trying to BARGIN LAND, with Jesus, which Already belongs to Jesus.

God Bless,
SBC

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You contradict yourself all over the place. You claim Satan being a spirit creature can both "absolutely know the Scriptures" and you say of spirit creatures, "The Host of Heaven, ie spirits, were created Having the Knowledge of the Truth of God - But NOT with complete UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE."

That is not possible. No one can absolutely know the Scriptures and lack in the understanding of evil. All of you forget that evil angels experience their own evil between themselves even as we do. And that they have been doing so for billions of years compared to our 70 or 80 year average per person. So you really think they have anything to learn from Us? That is ridiculous and puffed up to even think. It is precisely that they have nothing to learn from us that, as I said in a previous post, that when we conquer, our conquering proves God's condemnation of them as just, giving us a part in vindicating his holy name.

It is only the consequences that are different and that does not matter because God does not want you to obey because you do not want to be punished or suffer a consequence. God is after all, both angels and man, to obey because they love him.

God Bless your effort.

Edit: (To add a thought), the fallen angels are like us in that they are so full of having ignored what God teaches them, instead choosing their own opinions as valid and being full on their own opinions, that this is precisely why they honestly believe that if they can get us to also rebel against God's wisdom that this justifies them. That is why they try so hard to see that we fail. But God is using their wisdom against them by proving in us that we can be conquerors and thus justifying his judgment of them as righteous. And that way all his faithful angels can see clearly that God's wisdom is so much greater than those rebellious angels wisdom that none of them will ever be self-deceived again. And if per chance anyone yet chooses sin, whether human or angel, it will remain clear forever that God is justified to destroy them immediately.

It is the same thing as God does with us:

1 Corinthians 1:27 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

He has chosen us weaklings to confound even the pridefully wise angels that sinned. It is about judgment. And that is why: "... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18b

It is about judgment:

1 Corinthians 1:28-29 "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh (or spirit) should glory in his presence."

Buzz_B said:

In your post 361 genez, the quote I clipped here is about all I can really see where we begin to part company.

Your post 361 I thought otherwise was excellent reasoning.

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Discuss it?

Buzz_B said:

That is not possible. No one can absolutely know the Scriptures and lack in the understanding of evil. All of you forget that evil angels experience their own evil between themselves even as we do. And that they have been doing so for billions of years compared to our 70 or 80 year average per person. So you really think they have anything to learn from Us? That is ridiculous and puffed up to even think.

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I do not know whom you are addressing (again). But I would like to respond to that statement.

1 Peter 1:12

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."


A more exhaustive translation as follows...

12~~ Unto whom it was revealed, that not only unto themselves but to us
they kept on ministering the things, which are now reported back to us
through them that have preached the gospel to you by means of the Holy Spirit
sent down from heaven (at the beginning of the Church Age the Holy Spirit came to Earth).
Which things (Old Testament Doctrine) the angels have an insatiable desire to bend over
and concentrate on.


You see... The church age is different than the OT dispensation. In this age a truly anointed prepared believer will be preaching by the power of the Spirit. Empowered in a manner that the believer may not fully understand all the implications of all his words.... But, angels do! They are not learning from man, but from God the Spirit.

genez said:

I do not know whom you are addressing (again). But I would like to respond to that statement.

1 Peter 1:12

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."


A more exhaustive translation as follows...

12~~ Unto whom it was revealed, that not only unto themselves but to us
they kept on ministering the things, which are now reported back to us
through them that have preached the gospel to you by means of the Holy Spirit
sent down from heaven (at the beginning of the Church Age the Holy Spirit came to Earth).
Which things (Old Testament Doctrine) the angels have an insatiable desire to bend over
and concentrate on.


You see... The church age is different than the OT dispensation. In this age a truly anointed prepared believer will be preaching by the power of the Spirit. Empowered in a manner that the believer may not fully understand all the implications of all his words.... But, angels do! They are not learning from man, but from God the Spirit.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree.

I would only hope that you would see that nullifies none of what I said in that response which was to SBC. (that was post 385)

1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, (compare: Hebrews 11:19)

but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced (Compare: Daniel 9:24; Acts 2:14)

to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit (Compare: John 15:26; Acts 2:4)

sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.["to peer" or literally "to stoop beside" or one could express it "to bend over" to make it more English understandable] (Compare: Ephesians 3:10)

What the context reveals there in 1 Peter 1 is that "It was revealed to them that, not to themselves" means the prophets of old who prophesied to us about things to come in God's purpose. The mystery to them about how exactly God would fulfill the things God had told them he would do for it begins first with the last.

Matthew 19:29-30 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

The faithful angels also are watching because they know this is a matter which vindicates the name of God. The end of this matter proves whether Satan was really the liar. You would want to peer into these things for that reason, too, if you were one of God's faithful angels.

Buzz_B said:

You contradict yourself all over the place. You claim Satan being a spirit creature can both "absolutely know the Scriptures" and you say of spirit creatures, "The Host of Heaven, ie spirits, were created Having the Knowledge of the Truth of God - But NOT with complete UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE."

Click to expand...

That is not possible. No one can absolutely know the Scriptures and lack in the understanding of evil.

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Not possible to:
ABSOLUTELY KNOW the SCRIPTURES?
LACK UNDERSTANDING OF EVIL?

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Thank you for telling me, I contradicted myself, with your words!

I said:
The HOST of Heaven, ie spirits,
Were created Having the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth of God.

If you want to CHALLENGE, spirits were created without KNOWLEDGE of Gods Truth,
Go ahead.

I said:
But without COMPLETE UNDERSTANING of the Truth of God.

If you want to CHALLENGE created spirits were created without COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING of the Truth of God,
Go ahead.

All of you forget that evil angels experience their own evil between themselves even as we do.

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Why are you telling me I forget what evil angels experience?

I said nothing about their "experiences" or "evil".

I was speaking of KNOWLEDGE of Gods Truth.
And LACK of UNDERSTANDING KNOWLEDGE.

KNOWLEDGE is INFORMATION.

UNDERSTANDING the information is comprehending the what the information means.

EXPERIENCES are results of choices....
Which I said nothing about.

And that they have been doing so for billions of years compared to our 70 or 80 year average per person.

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So you really think they have anything to learn from Us?

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Well, friend, I didn't mention that spirits "LEARN FROM US".

But since you somehow concluded, spirits created with KNOWLEDGE from God, means they LEARN from US....
I can't even respond to your illogical conclusion.

That is ridiculous and puffed up to even think.

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Review, it is a thought, that was yours, not mine, so you need to see, whom your are saying, said something ridiculous, and had puffed up thinking.

It is precisely that they have nothing to learn from us

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I disagree with your stated claim.
I believe the hosts of Gods created spirits do learn from humans...

Most importantly, they learn by observing, our experiences of HAVING SIN, and then being FORGIVEN, which they can never experience. (Among other things)

Matt 24:36
....but knoweth no man, no, both the angels of heaven....

1 Pet 1:12
....which things the angels desire to look into.

that, as I said in a previous post, that when we conquer, our conquering proves God's condemnation of them as just, giving us a part in vindicating his holy name.

Click to expand...

I don't believe we conquer anything.
But I do believe with Gods Power in us, we OVERCOME sin and darkness.

God Bless your effort.

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Thanks, however, my effort had to do with spirits given KNOWLEDGE when they were created, and spirits not having complete understanding of all the knowledge they were given. (And had nothing to do with what you thought for me).

God Bless,
SBC

Buzz_B said:

MORE BLINDING OF YOURSELF WITH YOUR OWN FALSE IDEAS DUMP YOUR INFACTUATION WITH YOUR OWN WISDOM AND HEAR JESUS:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is [NOW BY YOUR TIME BILLIONS AND IS] CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [1 Tim.1:13]

Saul was a serial killer, like Hitler & others. He was an Inquisitor, persecutor & murderer of those of faith in Jesus. He compelled them to blaspheme, both men and women.

Yet he received mercy because he acted in unbelief & ignorance (1 Tim.1:13). Just as millions of others who have already died in such a condition of unbelief & ignorance shall receive mercy.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", Jesus prayed on the cross.

Like serial killer Inquisitionist Saul, who had not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, neither have those who have died in unbelief and ignorance. Therefore they SHALL be pardoned. Jesus said so:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)

31 Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned."
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending. (Mt.12:31-32, CLV)

Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age. In fact it will be:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

BUMP~

ClementofA ~

You are preaching God shall claim dead bodies, and make them saved, without them having "given" their living body to God?
Is that correct?

God Bless,
SBC

ClementofA said:

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [1 Tim.1:13]

Saul was a serial killer, like Hitler & others. He was an Inquisitor, persecutor & murderer of those of faith in Jesus. He compelled them to blaspheme, both men and women.

Yet he received mercy because he acted in unbelief & ignorance (1 Tim.1:13). Just as millions of others who have already died in such a condition of unbelief & ignorance shall receive mercy.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", Jesus prayed on the cross.

Like serial killer Inquisitionist Saul, who had not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, neither have those who have died in unbelief and ignorance. Therefore they SHALL be pardoned. Jesus said so:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)

31 Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned."
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending. (Mt.12:31-32, CLV)

Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age. In fact it will be:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Click to expand...

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is [NOW BY YOUR TIME BILLIONS AND IS] CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

OK we all already get it that you say it is just my understanding of the above words of Jesus that you disagree with and not that you disagree with Jesus. Right? And I really do care enough about you that I could wish for your sake that was true.

However, you also say other things which I see clearly, at least to my mind, are refusal to listen to Jesus. This post of yours which I am right now responding to, contains a very good example:

You say, quote, "Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age."

Jesus says, quote, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come." Matthew 12:31-32

Judging by Jesus' words above, can you really blame me for saying that when you speak of many ages to come you are presumptuously going beyond what Jesus said?

Judging by Jesus' words above, can you really blame me for saying that when you speak of even the sin of blasphemy against God's holy spirit possibly being forgiven you are presumptuously going beyond what Jesus said?

And, in view of your having used the words, "there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned", for saying that I fear you are being not merely presumptuous but maybe even self-righteously haughty to push at teaching the idea that all will be saved while having admitted that it is only a "possibility" that blasphemy against the holy spirit will be forgiven?

So why do you resist me? Are you not also resisting Jesus?

Buzz_B said:

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is [NOW BY YOUR TIME BILLIONS AND IS] CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

OK we all already get it that you say it is just my understanding of the above words of Jesus that you disagree with and not that you disagree with Jesus. Right?

Click to expand...

Where does Jn.3:18 say anyone will never be saved? Or did you just imagine it does?

Buzz_B said:

You say, quote, "Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age."

Jesus says, quote, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come." Matthew 12:31-32

Judging by Jesus' words above, can you really blame me for saying that when you speak of many ages to come you are presumptuously going beyond what Jesus said?

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Where did Jesus deny more than one age to come? Speaking through Paul he speaks of both the "age to come" (Eph.1:21) & a few verses later in the same context multiple future ages (2:7). Many other passages, BTW, speak of multiple future ages (Lk.1:33; Rv.11:15, etc).

Buzz_B said:

Judging by Jesus' words above, can you really blame me for saying that when you speak of even the sin of blasphemy against God's holy spirit possibly being forgiven you are presumptuously going beyond what Jesus said?

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He also says if you don't pardon others you won't be pardoned. But that not being pardoned has an escape clause. Namely if you forgive others (Mt. 6:14-15). The not being pardoned for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit also has an escape clause. It's penalty is limited to this age & the next. Here we see another escape clause for a sin that will not be pardoned:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

"...all such statements must be understood within the limits of their contexts. When our Lord told His disciples "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it", we do not rush to the conclusion that they will never see one of those days. In the days spoken of, they shall not see, but afterwards they shall see (Lu. 17:22)."

"When the apostle Paul tells the Ephesians "ye shall see my face no more" he certainly did not intend to suggest that they would never meet in the resurrection."
(UR Vol 8, p.190-1)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/urscans/Unsearchable+Riches+Volume+08++1916+-+1917.pdf

Compare:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness.
33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Buzz_B said:

And, in view of your having used the words, "there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned", for saying that I fear you are being not merely presumptuous but maybe even self-righteously haughty to push at teaching the idea that all will be saved while having admitted that it is only a "possibility" that blasphemy against the holy spirit will be forgiven?

Click to expand...

Clearly my remark was within the confines of the context of the passage re blasphemies, not the whole Scriptures.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA said:

Where does Jn.3:18 say anyone will never be saved? Or did you just imagine it does?

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Presicely where you refuse to look.

ClementofA said:

Where did Jesus deny more than one age to come? Speaking through Paul he speaks of both the "age to come" (Eph.1:21) & a few verses later in the same context multiple future ages (2:7). Many other passages, BTW, speak of multiple future ages (Lk.1:33; Rv.11:15, etc).

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Precisely. He spoke of one more age of judgment, right? But you speak of many more ages of judgement.

It is logical then that if Jesus spoke only of one more age of judgement then after that is finished it becomes the only other foreseeable age, the age now free of judgment.

Yet rather than trusting in Jesus' words, you cite various verse by others who are speaking and squeeze them to mean the multiple ages you desire to believe in. And as I told you once before, you are going to have to accept that I will not follow you in that path of what I feel I know is mere presumptuousness.

You often ignore what the word genea really means and try to use it as part of your proof by a false appearance of Scholarly understanding which is completely fake.

And you often lay out the word aion doing the exact same things capatalizing on it being plural and forgetting that after that one more age of judgment which Jesus spoke about there is logically another age where there is no more judgment. But you choose rather not to realize that Jesus did in fact speak in other ways of the age when all judgment is finished thus justify that the plural aions to come means only two that we have any business prying into.

I am not going to even bother with the rest of what you said. You have shown me that you are unwilling to repent what I believe the spirit of God moved me to tell you. And that is that as far as I am concerned. God has not appointed us to cast the evil out of the world, but out of the spiritual congregation which will grow to the point it engulfs the world at which point he will renew all. The age of judgement to come is but a recreation day. By its end all will have been made new and we begin our first truly sin free age.

It is not my problem what you don't see of that or won't see of that. I know who teaches me and I will never forsake him for you.

This is the difference between the Bible and the Word of God. The Bible is the Word without the Spirit for it is the Word of God void of deepness of the Spiritual influenced and can be read by any basic believer. But the Word of God is deep, hidden and the deeper you probe the deeper it becomes. Its like milk and meat. Any babe can drink milk. But to eat a thick spiritual steak you need grow up spiritually so you can use those sharp spiritual teeth to FEAST on that thick spiritual steak. A babe will choke on a spiritual steak for he has not matured to the level of growing spiritual teeth.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

This is the difference between the Bible and the Word of God. The Bible is the Word without the Spirit for it is the Word of God void of deepness of the Spiritual influenced and can be read by any basic believer. But the Word of God is deep, hidden and the deeper you probe the deeper it becomes. Its like milk and meat. Any babe can drink milk. But to eat a thick spiritual steak you need grow up spiritually so you can use those sharp spiritual teeth to FEAST on that thick spiritual steak. A babe will choke on a spiritual steak for he has not matured to the level of growing spiritual teeth.

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And by that premature belief that now it is all written upon your heart you make yourself the Bible long before you have even reached perfection.

There is no more self-deceptive way of adding to the word of God than that.

ClementofA said:

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [1 Tim.1:13]

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Just one more observation.

There are various kinds of blasphemies. The basic thought of the word means "to speak irreverently of sacred things." Speaking irreverently of any sacred thing leaves much room.

But not only the, one cannot blaspheme the holy spirit before they have it speaking in them. And you well know Paul was there speaking of himself before he had God's holy spirit in him. Thus you deceive yourself. And if that is not bad enough you deceive all who agree with you because of what you said.

That one place is but a tell all sign, but instead of benefiting from having had one care enough to point it out to you, you will continue the lie that the holy spirit has replaced our Bibles by perfecting the word in you. There is no greater form of presumptuousness. That is the most arrogant form of presumptuousness.

You are so void of any real knowledge that you cannot even see that is the holy spirit which God is trying to write your hearts. All God law is really spiritual even as Paul told you in Romans chapter 7.

Therefore you are indeed making out as if that writing to your heart is perfected when you claim you have shifted beyond the written word by spirit.

Arrogance. Something only the man of sin-son of destruction would believe.

Too bad.

The Life OF man is his BLOOD.
God requires the Life OF man (mans' blood)
A man without his BLOOD, IS a DEAD MAN.

The Life OF man is brought into a living state, BY the Breath of God.

Because mankind IS a MORTAL, meaning he IS subject to DEATH, (because God requires the life of man),

The ONLY WAY for a man to
Be accomplished in being SAVED from an eternal death, IS FOR God to SAVE AND KEEP, HIS OWN BREATH OF LIFE, IN the SOUL of mankind.

The ONLY WAY for a man to
Be accomplished for the man himself to HAVE eternal LIFE, IS FOR GOD to GIVE the man, an ETERNAL LIVING spirit.

Saving of a mans soul;
And;
God giving a man an eternal livings spirit;

Are effected; FOLLOWING, AFTER the man
IN HIS own (BLOOD) life, GIVES TO GOD, his own LIVING BODY, "as a", LIVING SACRIFICE TO GOD.

Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye
PRESENT YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE holy, acceptable UNTO GOD,
Which is your REASONABLE SERVICE.

I find nothing contradictory to Scripture that reveals DEAD BODIES, receive from God, SAVED souls, or that the dead bodies of men, present themselves to receive an eternal living spirit.

Concerning the Heavenly Host of God.

Pss33:
6:
By the word of God were the heavens made;
And
all the HOST of them by the breath of His mouth.

Scripture is clear. Men are made from dust, their breath shall depart them, they shall die and return to dust.
Gods Breath of life, (Living soul), shall depart their dead body.
A man who has accomplished receiving a LIVING spirit, so also shall their Living spirit depart their dead body.

Nothing indicates the Host of the heavens, regardless of where they are; shall have the breath of God departed from them, nor be without LIFE in them.

Nothing whatsoever indicates the Host of the heavens, regardless of where they are; require or receive SAVING.

Scripture reveals,
Regarding mankind - mankind requires SAVING and CONVERSION to "BE WITH THE Lord forever".....or foregoes "BEING WITH" the Lord forever.

Scripture reveals.
Regarding the heavenly host - THEY are not SAVED, but rather they ARE KEPT, and remain HOLY, or forego being KEPT, and FALL from being HOLY.

The Heavenly Host and Mankind....have FREEWILL, to choose their Standing WITH or AGAINST God.

What Scripture DOES reveal, IS:
NOT ALL SHALL "BE WITH" the Lord FOREVER.

God Bless,
SBC

Buzz_B said:

Yes I agree.

I would only hope that you would see that nullifies none of what I said in that response which was to SBC. (that was post 385)

1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, (compare: Hebrews 11:19)

but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced (Compare: Daniel 9:24; Acts 2:14)

to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit (Compare: John 15:26; Acts 2:4)

sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.["to peer" or literally "to stoop beside" or one could express it "to bend over" to make it more English understandable] (Compare: Ephesians 3:10)

What the context reveals there in 1 Peter 1 is that "It was revealed to them that, not to themselves" means the prophets of old who prophesied to us about things to come in God's purpose. The mystery to them about how exactly God would fulfill the things God had told them he would do for it begins first with the last.

Matthew 19:29-30 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

The faithful angels also are watching because they know this is a matter which vindicates the name of God. The end of this matter proves whether Satan was really the liar. You would want to peer into these things for that reason, too, if you were one of God's faithful angels.

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Satan and demons want to listen with great concentration too!


For we (by grace and truth) are to mature and become witnesses to take the stand.. Who are to be cross examined by the opposition.

Certain fallen angels listen to every word of a believer whom God has made him able to know what he is talking about. Its does happen in spite of what we see passing for preaching these days.

As a witness proclaiming not some mere theory stitched together by weaving verses together. But, speaking words that angels can relate to. What may even go over the heads of those in the church who lack the capacity for such truth. When ready, we are to proclaim what God gives and not proclaim something simply knowing its what the believers WANT to hear. What they "prefer" to hear. And, not becoming discouraged and frustrated when believers who keep themselves immature fail to grasp what God has in store for their given generation as more of the mystery becomes disclosed and explained.. even though not understood by those who want to remain in "happy happy" Sunday school in their form of worship... Or, seek and emotionally stirring messages to make them feel good in their belly.

There is a Heavenly courtroom scene going on. And Satan is most desperately listening and seeking something that will cause God to renege and reverse the sentence to the Lake of Fire. Satan listens to every word of those who actually have something to say of substance that relates to reality. Satan also has teams of fallen angels out there to recruit believers who have the gift to teach, who are vulnerable to flattery and have a need for self vindication in their lives. These flattered ones end up being sucked into various systems of false teaching designed to counter the progress and growth of believers that can only come from believers receiving sound doctrine.

The ways of false teaching are "broad and wide." In contrast, the way of sound teaching is narrow and under pressure of being resisted... until finally the devil must flee, due his inability to cope with too much truth.

Buzz_B said:

yes that is right. And some think that star which led the magic practicing magi to Jesus whom Herod was using to find the baby Jesus to kill him was Satan for that very reason. He was high ranking as a Cherubim. To have responsibilities like spreading their wings over the holy Ark of the Covenant we know that had to be so.

And as that description also applies to Jesus rising in our hearts, we know that it demonstrates what
Ezekiel 28:15 says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

(Of course there in Isaiah it is actually the king of Tyre being counseled but by comparing his conduct to how Satan came to be.)

The really wild thing is that there are even some who teach Jesus was Satan just being portrayed in one of his many roles. I told you, I have heard it all. Very little surprises me these days. I thank God for the joy that every so often I yet learn something new but it is usually more in the way of perfecting my walk in Christ than it is in doctrine. And in that area I still have much learning to do.

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I do not see any reference to Satan in theses verse I see Adam not Satan. Adam fell from grace. Satan was a liar from the beginning no where is there any reference to Satan's the beginning being in Eden. Both Adam and Satan were in the Garden of Eden and it was God's will for Adam to fall.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.


Satan was never an angel always a liar, he is lying to those who want to believe this.


II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been to being light -- as a masquerading actor.


Satan is masquerading as an angel of light.