Spanish Inquistion

Why would it be necessary to expel the Jews from Spain? There was no justification for what happened to the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition.

mathinspiration said:

Was it really necessary for Spanish to clean out their country?

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I wouldn't think so.

Basil the Great said:

Why would it be necessary to expel the Jews from Spain? There was no justification for what happened to the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition.

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But that concerns the Jews. The Moors were the more important project of the Reconquista.

With regard to them, the answer to the question of this thread is not so easy to come by.

mathinspiration said:

Was it really necessary for Spanish to clean out their country?

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I am not sure that we can make a good judgement on this with our modern minds. For us the ultimate in ethics is tolerance and diversity. To the Spanish of the 1500's, they had been conquered in the 700's and lived in an occupied country with foreign rulers for centuries. The Reconquista took several centuries itself. I guess I would ask you to think about what the mood in the U.S. would be if Russia conquered us and ruled us for centuries and we fought and successfully took back our country with loss of many lives. Would we be that tolerant of those who had worked with the Russians and prospered by this association?

Regarding the Spanish Inquisition, there are several aspects. First, to take over their sovereign land by pushing out the Moors. Afterwards, you had to deal with the issue of forced conversions that were false conversions-this involved the Moors and the Jews. There are other things, but during that time, there needed to be a court-system for the Church, which is what the Inquisition was. And the fact is that the Inquisition was more tolerant and gentle regarding crime (heresy was a state crime and a church crime), preferring to convert souls rather than kill them. So prison sentences were more lenient from the Church than from the State. There's plenty more, but I don't want to go too deep here.

Root of Jesse said:

Regarding the Spanish Inquisition, there are several aspects. First, to take over their sovereign land by pushing out the Moors. Afterwards, you had to deal with the issue of forced conversions that were false conversions-this involved the Moors and the Jews. There are other things, but during that time, there needed to be a court-system for the Church, which is what the Inquisition was. And the fact is that the Inquisition was more tolerant and gentle regarding crime (heresy was a state crime and a church crime), preferring to convert souls rather than kill them. So prison sentences were more lenient from the Church than from the State. There's plenty more, but I don't want to go too deep here.

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In your dreams.
The inquisition was genocide in the name of Christ.

Francis Drake said:

In your dreams.
The inquisition was genocide in the name of Christ.

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I guess you are referring to the Spanish Inquisition because of the thread title. I didn't expect this; but then nobody expects it, do they? Seriously, can you provide solid historical sources for your claims. Calling it genocide would imply that they systematically hunted and killed certain classes of people until they could find no more. This would mean that a significant percentage of the population of those classes are killed indiscriminately. No recourse, no trial, just verify their belonging to the class and kill them. The Nazis practiced genocide against Jews and Gypsies. The Ottomans practiced genocide against the Armenians. I am not sure we can call the Inquisition genocide; but I am open to peer-reviewed historical research that holds to that opinion.

Basil the Great said:

Why would it be necessary to expel the Jews from Spain? There was no justification for what happened to the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition.

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The Spanish Inquisition- barbaric and anti-Christian in word and deed- an eternal stain on Catholicism.

lismore said:

The Spanish Inquisition- barbaric and anti-Christian in word and deed- an eternal stain on Catholicism.

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Many would echo your words and to some extent you are correct. However, I view it a little differently. I cannot ignore the fact that except for the Waldensians in a small area of Northern Italy and neighboring Switzerland and France, the Catholic Church was effectively the Christian Church in Western Europe during at least the first half of the Spanish Inquisition. Hence, I feel that not just the Spanish Inquisition, but the Holy Office of the Inquisition itself is an eternal stain on Christianity.

As a former Protestant turned Catholic, I have become increasingly aware of the mis-information commonly peddled about anything Catholic. And of course the Crusades and Inquisition are two of the favourites.

I suggest those who really want some informed background read the following link - The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition

I lifted the next two quotes from this link. On the usually grossly inflated figure of deaths -

In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake. Compare that with the witch-hunts that raged across the rest of Catholic and Protestant Europe, in which 60,000 people, mostly women, were roasted. Spain was spared this hysteria precisely because the Spanish Inquisition stopped it at the border.

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Because it was both professional and efficient, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records. Vast archives are filled with them. These documents were kept secret, so there was no reason for scribes to do anything but accurately record every action of the Inquisition. They are a goldmine for modern historians who have plunged greedily into them. Thus far, the fruits of that research have made one thing abundantly clear — the myth of the Spanish Inquisition has nothing at all to do with the real thing.

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Would the Protestant critics like to comment on the burning of witches by their Protestant ancestors, which even infected the good old USA at Salem, or the fact that Henry VIII ordered, after his conversion, the execution of Catholics and those who he even suspected of not supporting him. While the figure is uncertain, possibly because the records weren't as well kept as those of the Inquisition, he killed a lot of people - once he became a Protestant - many times more than the Inquisition did in it's 350 history, yet he only ruled for 37 years. Yet I don't seem to hear Protestants and Anglicans in particular admitting that this was a stain on the Protestant Church. It's only Catholics who were guilty of those sorts of things.

How many executions was Henry VIII responsible for?

How many executions was Henry VIII responsible for?
It is impossible to tell for sure, and historians have no definitive number. It is estimated that anywhere from 57,000 to 72,000 people were executed during Henry’s 37 years’ reign, but this is likely to be an exaggeration.

Henry’s break with Papal authority, and his second marriage – which was not sanctioned by the Pope – caused a rift between Henry and certain individuals at court, many of whom he knew well, and in some cases was close to.

Those who either refused to adhere to his Act of Succession or those considered to be heretics were executed, but Henry also executed numerous potential rivals to the throne; two wives and their alleged lovers; leaders of the Pilgrimage of Grace, and his trusted advisor, Thomas Cromwell.

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Bob Crowley said:

I lifted the next two quotes from this link. On the usually grossly inflated figure of deaths -

'In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake'

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Hello Bob. But don't you see what you're defending? If even ONE person was burned at the stake by the inquisition, a hideous and barbaric execution, then it's one too many. 4,000? Lord have mercy!

Fine, 4000 is too many. How about the following at Protestant hands? Any moral judgment on your part, or is your criticism only aimed at Catholics?

lismore said:

Hello Bob. But don't you see what you're defending? If even ONE person was burned at the stake by the inquisition, a hideous and barbaric execution, then it's one too many. 4,000? Lord have mercy!

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Protestant Atrocities
« on: Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:38:40 »

I am reminded of the phrase, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Since some on this forum have decided to post about the unfortunate scandals that have plagued the Church during some of its history, I figure that it is only fair to give equal time to our Protestant brothers. Here is just a few examples:

The Protestant history of persecutions, especially of Catholics, is not pretty.

Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Peasants-War

Peasants’ War, (1524–25) peasant uprising in Germany. Inspired by changes brought by the Reformation, peasants in western and southern Germany invoked divine law to demand agrarian rights and freedom from oppression by nobles and landlords. As the uprising spread, some peasant groups organized armies. Although the revolt was supported by Huldrych Zwingli and Thomas Müntzer, its condemnation by Martin Luther contributed to its defeat, principally by the army of the Swabian League. Some 100,000 peasants were killed. Reprisals and increased restrictions discouraged further attempts to improve the peasants’ plight.

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King Henry VIII is responsible for the deaths of over 70,000 Catholics including hundreds of priests and Bishops. He had St. Thomas More executed in 1535. He even ordered the destruction of most of the uncorrupted bodies of saints in England. The only bodies that were not destroyed are the ones taken by Catholics and hidden from the persecutors.

http://www.thetudorswiki.com/page/EXECUTIONS+under+all+the+Tudors

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John Calvin, one of the Protestant reformers, viciously persecuted Catholics as heretics. He persecuted others as well, and had a rival critic, Michael Servetus, burned alive in October 1553.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e034rpCalvin_Franca05.htm

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Queen Elizabeth I, had thousands of Catholics put to death in England. She ordered that Catholic Mary Queen of Scots be executed in 1587. She had thousands more killed in Ireland.

Oliver Cromwell is responsible for starting the English civil war and the subsequent beheading of Catholic King Charles I, and for the killing of thousands of Catholics in that war of 1642-1649. Some Catholics were nailed to trees.

Thousands of Catholics were murdered in Ireland by the English in the 19th century simply because they attended the Catholic Mass. The Protestant English redcoats were also responsible for confiscating the food from the Irish people and for leaving them only with potatoes which were blighted and unfit to eat. In the mid 19th century this caused the deaths by starvation of an estimated 1-1.5 million Irish Catholics, and the emigration of about 2 million more. It was a case of either leave the country or die of starvation.

How many thousands of women were burned at the stake after witch trials, by Protestant witch hunters, over several centuries, and throughout Europe and America? It is estimated that 30,000 went to their deaths in Britain alone, and another 100,000 in Protestant Germany. Interestingly, the Protestant mind-set in those times was that if the woman survived the burning, she was considered not to be a witch. Now just how many innocent women, do you think, survived this horror?

What glass houses we do live in....

Bob Crowley said:

Fine, 4000 is too many. How about the following at Protestant hands? Any moral judgment on your part, or is your criticism only aimed at Catholics?
....

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Hello Bob. Thank you for your reply. One victim would be an eternity too many.

As part of a faith group that was persecuted by both Catholics and Protestants over the issue of believer's baptism I would agree that all tortures and murders for faith reasons are wrong and am saddened to hear about any of it.

I am struggling to understand your logic though. You're main point seems to be that other individuals and churches committed more atrocities than your own church? Does that somehow erase the atrocities committed by your church? Does that the lessen the pain of those dear people, dear believers in Christ who were martyred by your church, the pain that they sufferred? We won't stand before God and say that someone else sinned worse, we must take responsibility for our own actions.

The RCC has made some pretty big claims are to it's role and standing in the sight of God, therefore people do look at it's actions closely.

What I have found absolutely frightening about your attitude and that of other Catholics though is this. For the victims of inquisition atrocities I would excpect tears of sorrow and utter repentance from you for the pain inflicted on these people. Instead you argue semantics and compare yourselves to others. if you're not truly repentant about the Inquisition and the RCC rose again to state power, can we expect to see more people tied to stakes and set on fire by the RCC?

God Bless

As I stated in a different thread recently, there has been a history of violence within Christianity. It appears that I should perhaps list some of the highlights again.....

(1) The violence against Jews is one of the worst tragedies and Catholic theologian Hans Kung himself said that the Holocaust would probably never have happened but for the history of Christian violence and discrimination against the Jews.
(2) The Crusades to the Holy Land - regardless of the intent to free Christians from persecution, severe offenses were committed by many Crusaders, including the sacking of Constantinople.
(3) The wars against the Albigensians and the Waldensians were inexcusable.
(4) The burning of so-called witches at the stake, by both Catholics and Protestants, mostly in Switzerland, Germany and France, is a permanent stain on the faith.
(5) The Thirty Years' War in Central Europe between Catholics and Protestants was a very sad affair.
(6) The persecution of Protestant minorities in Southern Europe and Catholic minorities in Northern Europe followed the end of the Thirty Years' War for another 200 years or so.
(7) The endorsement of slavery in the American South by Evangelical pastors and the apparent tepid acceptance in Louisiana by Catholic priests, is another sad chapter.
(8) The endorsement of physical violence, aka torture, for six centuries, by the Holy office of the Inquisition, needs no further commentary.
(9) The persecution of the Native Americans also needs no further statement.

Yes, Bob, as one who has about 45-50% English ancestry, I admit that it is a very sad fact that the English let so many Irish starve during the potato famine.

As a side note, for whatever reason, it appears that there has been less violence committed by Christians in Eastern Europe, than in Western Europe and the Americas, though I am sure that one can point to problems there as well, like the recent genocide in Bosnia.

Matthew 26:52
52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Ephesians 6:12-18
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the GOSPEL OF PEACE. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

If anyone kills, and says they do it in the name of Christ, he is a liar. Many things are done using the name "Christian" that is why it is important to look at "Deeds"

James 2:18-20
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

There have been many LIARS saying they are Christian throughout history. No one should ever equate their action with Christian, Faith and deeds= Christian. Using the guise (Word) "Christian" and then killing does NOT! Christ, talk the talk and walked the walk and so must all His followers.

lismore said:

Hello Bob. Thank you for your reply. One victim would be an eternity too many.

As part of a faith group that was persecuted by both Catholics and Protestants over the issue of believer's baptism I would agree that all tortures and murders for faith reasons are wrong and am saddened to hear about any of it.

I am struggling to understand your logic though. You're main point seems to be that other individuals and churches committed more atrocities than your own church? Does that somehow erase the atrocities committed by your church? Does that the lessen the pain of those dear people, dear believers in Christ who were martyred by your church, the pain that they sufferred? We won't stand before God and say that someone else sinned worse, we must take responsibility for our own actions.

The RCC has made some pretty big claims are to it's role and standing in the sight of God, therefore people do look at it's actions closely.

What I have found absolutely frightening about your attitude and that of other Catholics though is this. For the victims of inquisition atrocities I would excpect tears of sorrow and utter repentance from you for the pain inflicted on these people. Instead you argue semantics and compare yourselves to others. if you're not truly repentant about the Inquisition and the RCC rose again to state power, can we expect to see more people tied to stakes and set on fire by the RCC?

God Bless

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Where are the tears of sorrow and repentance from Protestants about their historical atrocities? All too often I find Protestants are prepared to bring up the issue of the Inquistion and the Crusades for example while saying nothing of their own chequered history. It's hypocritical - that's what gets me.

Secondly I don't spend my time wailing and sitting in sackcloth and ashes over something that some Catholics might have done 500 years ago. I wasn't there, and I'm not responsible, any more than you're responsible for the Cromwellian slaughter of the Irish.

Nor am I responsible for the paedophilia committed by some Catholic priests (AND some Protestants). I was even warned by my old Protestant pastor well before I became Catholic that he thought this would happen, yet I still joined the Catholic Church, since I believe it's closest to the truth.

What I do believe is that I"M RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, and I'll be judged on that alone, not what some Inquisitor might have done at the tail end of the Medieval period.

This is one of the things that annoys me about historical apologies. A few years ago an Australian Prime Minister apologised publicly for the abuses the aboriginal people suffered at the hands of the European settlers and white Australian society (mostly Protestant British for that matter). The irony is that by and large most modern Australians don't persecute Aboriginals.

What we do instead is kill 100,000 unborn children every year. So who's going to apologise for that 100 years down the track - it will ring a bit hollow won't it?

So when Protestants continually bring up the issue of the Inquisition and the Crusades, I get sick of hearing about it. I wasn't there, and I don't accept responsibility for it, any more that you were present when Cromwell massacred Irish men, women and children at Drogheda.

Or would you rather I keep reminding you of it?

Basil the Great said:

Why would it be necessary to expel the Jews from Spain? There was no justification for what happened to the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition.

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While not exactly politically correct by today's standards, and much maligned due to the Black Legend, this period of Spanish history was actually an important time in its culture, similar to the Elizabethan era in England. And the Inquisition's brutality has been often exaggerated by English and Dutch propagandists.

Bob Crowley said:

Where are the tears of sorrow and repentance from Protestants about their historical atrocities? All too often I find Protestants are prepared to bring up the issue of the Inquistion and the Crusades for example while saying nothing of their own chequered history. It's hypocritical - that's what gets me.

Secondly I don't spend my time wailing and sitting in sackcloth and ashes over something that some Catholics might have done 500 years ago. I wasn't there, and I'm not responsible, any more than you're responsible for the Cromwellian slaughter of the Irish.

Nor am I responsible for the paedophilia committed by some Catholic priests (AND some Protestants). I was even warned by my old Protestant pastor well before I became Catholic that he thought this would happen, yet I still joined the Catholic Church, since I believe it's closest to the truth.

What I do believe is that I"M RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, and I'll be judged on that alone, not what some Inquisitor might have done at the tail end of the Medieval period.

This is one of the things that annoys me about historical apologies. A few years ago an Australian Prime Minister apologised publicly for the abuses the aboriginal people suffered at the hands of the European settlers and white Australian society (mostly Protestant British for that matter). The irony is that by and large most modern Australians don't persecute Aboriginals.

What we do instead is kill 100,000 unborn children every year. So who's going to apologise for that 100 years down the track - it will ring a bit hollow won't it?

So when Protestants continually bring up the issue of the Inquisition and the Crusades, I get sick of hearing about it. I wasn't there, and I don't accept responsibility for it, any more that you were present when Cromwell massacred Irish men, women and children at Drogheda.

Or would you rather I keep reminding you of it?

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I can understand why you get tired of hearing about it from Protestants. However, where I part company with others is that I do not consider the Inquisition to be a stain on the Catholic Church, but on Christianity itself and the entire Christian community, including Protestants and Orthodox.

Bob Crowley said:

So when Protestants continually bring up the issue of the Inquisition and the Crusades, I get sick of hearing about it. I wasn't there, and I don't accept responsibility for it, any more that you were present when Cromwell massacred Irish men, women and children at Drogheda.


Or would you rather I keep reminding you of it?

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I'm part Irish, a former Catholic and have never been a member of a protestant church! Bob, God Bless you but there's so much denial and strawmen in your posts.

I don't think the Catholic Church should apologise for past atrocities I think the Catholic Church should REPENT!

Cromwell doesn't excuse the inquisition, abortion doesn't excuse the inquisition. You have chosen to join an organisation and become a public apologist for it, you need to expect to receive questions about that organisations beliefs and practices. Your posts seem to show that there is no remorse for past atrocities among Catholics?

God Bless You