Saved by Faith or grace?

LoveofTruth said:

Jesus Christ cane in the flesh he is God manifest in the flesh he is the Word made flesh and as I have been saying he purchased the gift that came upon all men . The only way the seed (the word of God, the true Light that lightest every man) is given is through the work of Jesus Christ in time on the cross in the flesh.

And no man can merit grace by works of the flesh. To add Water baptism as part of the gospel for salvation is another gospel. And to make grace applicable to any sincere heart only through the means of a priest who wears long robes and is exalted over the body is not true either.

And remember Jesus said ,

John 4 - 23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

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Nonsense. Water Baptism has always been the practice of the Church from the very beginning. Yours is the belief and teaching of a dualist and it's based on the lie of the "great apostasy", which is the cornerstone upon which this "man-made" tradition that you fully ascribe to has been built. Our Holy Tradition is that which was taught by Christ and His Apostles, and handed down throughout the ages by means of yet another "physical" ritual that conveys grace called "laying on of hands". Because of your embedded-ness in the man-made tradition (which is the result of demonic activity in the world) of the radical reformation, you read Scripture through a muddied lenz, which is why you're only taking into account like half of what the real Christ said, while disregarding whatever doesn't agree with your tradition.

oOKnights TemplarOo said:

No it is "ergon nomou" - (works of the law) ("ergon" ἔργοις Does not mean GOOD!)

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In verse 9 there is no "nomou" (of the law):

3756 [e] 9 ouk 9 οὐκ 9 not 9 Adv · 1537 [e] · ex ἐξ out from. Prep · 2041 [e] · ergōn ἔργων , works. N- GNP · 2443 [e] · hina ἵνα so that. Conj · 3361 [e] · mē μή not. Adv · 5100 [e] · tis τις anyone IPro-NMS .

Exactly! Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law in Eph 2:8,9 - ,Eph. 2:10 - Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” – a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

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There is no reason why verse 9 and 10 cannot mean:

You have been saved by Grace through faith and not by good works so that no one should boast.

For we are God's workmanship begotten in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Being addressed to Gentiles, they can only boast of good works if they wanted to fight against the Jewish members by taunting them for being less righteous, and letting in Gentiles in the process, and even Israel cannot boast of works of the law for being chosen since they were saved , let in, before the law was given.

WHATEVER any of us thinks baptism means or does, there is absolutely no doubt from the words of the New Testament that it was administered to converts from the very early days of the Church and that it involved the application of water. No question about any of that.

So nobody who accepts that the Bible is the word of God, that it is divinely inspired, can get around that fact.

Albion said:

WHATEVER any of us thinks baptism means or does, there is absolutely no doubt from the words of the New Testament that it was administered to converts from the very early days of the Church and that it involved the application of water. No question about any of that.

So nobody who accepts that the Bible is the word of God, that it is divinely inspired, can get around that fact.

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Say nothing of Jesus submitting to water Baptism at the hand of His forerunner John, and saying, when John objected, that he should permit it to be so, in order to fulfill all righteousness. If our Lord approved of water Baptism and submitted to it, then what manner of people are these who deem themselves "too spiritual" for it?

Albion said:

WHATEVER any of us thinks baptism means or does, there is absolutely no doubt from the words of the New Testament that it was administered to converts from the very early days of the Church and that it involved the application of water. No question about any of that.

So nobody who accepts that the Bible is the word of God, that it is divinely inspired, can get around that fact.

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Scripture shows that baptism is administered to those who leave following the ways of the world, for gaining earthly benefit, for following God, for eternal treasure, exemplified comprehensively in the Exodus. You can even see it in microcosm in the incident of the thief on the cross.

The point is that it immediately begins its work, giving access to eternal treasure. Israel drank from the Rock, but SHE did not benefit, not because it was not treasure, but because she did not BELIEVE.

Hebrews 4:2
2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

At its core, baptism is asking God for living water, at which it is given, but we do not become blessings to the world, become wellspring of living water ourselves, if we do not believe it is living water.

Transpose the Exodus chain of events to any worldly person and see how it works.

Richest man in the world introspects and cries out to God for deliverance. He is being oppressed by his master, being worked hard, for temporary gains. God takes him out of the world promising him a benefit of a feast of methods by which he can gain treasure that lasts. As soon as God acts (baptism is God's work, ask the thief, the sacrament is a picturisation, to instruct the candidate about what he is doing) the rich man receives the feast.

Question
Why did Israel say it never received a feast in the desert, “Can God prepare a feast in the desert? “ Psalms 78:19

Because she did not believe, she could not resist the worldliness within her, she was too scared about her own safety, to let go depending worldly ways, she scrabbled to save her skin.

Question
Why do baptized candidates not receive feeding?

Because they were never baptized properly: baptism candidates should be clearly informed that they have committed to come out of the worldly ways they have admitted are futile.

Question
Why was Simon Magus acting like a carnal person?

Because he did not understand, or had forgotten by mistake, what he had committed to do.

Kierkegaard observed this and fought against the mainline churches, because they never reminded members what they had committed to. Although they had confessed that worldly life was futile (even those who did not believe in God admit this) they continued to live like people who do not believe in God: live life as painlessly, selfishly as possible.

Wordkeeper said:

Question
Why do baptized candidates not receive feeding?

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They do.

Because they were never baptized properly: baptism candidates should be clearly informed that they have committed to come out of the worldly ways they have admitted are futile.

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On the contrary, the candidates are required to make such a declaration during the baptismal ceremony.

Kierkegaard observed this and fought against the mainline churches, because they never reminded members what they had committed to. Although they had confessed that worldly life was futile (even those who did not believe in God admit this) they continued to live like people who do not believe in God: live life as painlessly, selfishly as possible.

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Which churches and people Kierkegaard had in mind, I cannot say, but most churches of our place and times most certainly do that which he complained was not being done in the churches of his acquaintance.

Albion said:

They do.


On the contrary, the candidates are required to make such a declaration during the baptismal ceremony.


Which churches and people Kierkegaard had in mind, I cannot say, but most churches of our place and times most certainly do that which he complained was not being done in the churches of his acquaintance.

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If they did they would murmur like the Israelites: We will die and our children will be enslaved.

Obviously the message has been watered down.

LoveofTruth said:

We read in scripture

Romans 8 - 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “

Romans 8 - 21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. “

Romans 7 - 18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

All I need is scripture to correct you here and you cannot try to create a straw man and tear it down.

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Your not just reading Scripture. Your interpreting Scripture through the lenz of your man-made tradition, which although it is man-made, the demons had a say in the construction thereof.

Romans 8:11

truefiction1 said in post #183:

It was God who called the gentiles, by His action within and between them. His Holy Spirit was touching their spirits and illumining their minds. The Holy Spirit had been at work preparing them to receive the Gospel before they were even conceived in their mother's wombs.

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Note that God calls only elect Gentiles (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:10).

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Nonelect people can't ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

LoveofTruth said in post #197:

I have heard some say that water baptism is such a meritous work for salvation . . .

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Note that the Bible itself shows that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

Bible2+ said:

Note that God calls only elect Gentiles (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:10).

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Nonelect people can't ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

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The Orthodox Tradition rejects both double predestination and total depravity doctrine.

LoveofTruth said:

We read in scripture

Romans 8 - 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “

Romans 8 - 21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. “

Romans 7 - 18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

All I need is scripture to correct you here and you cannot try to create a straw man and tear it down.

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The flesh isn't evil in and of itself, it was created by God after all. But the flesh has no scruples, it just wants what it wants: everything, generally speaking. Without being controlled by the Spirit, our "higher power", the flesh tends towards being consumed with and by sin. Our spirit must be aligned with and subjugated to the Holy Spirit, God and man in communion. Then we begin to control our excessive and harmful
passions.

LoveofTruth said:

Romans 8 - 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. “

We don’t have it yet. To say we do is confusion

We also read

Galatians 5 - 24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

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To say that we don't have it yet is the equivalent of saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit yet, so your dualism is obviously not what Paul is arguing for here. Paul talks of crucifying the "flesh" (which means his carnal passions) by the power of the Holy Spirit, thereby cleansing the flesh of sin and sanctifying it by that same power of the Holy Spirit. The spirit and the body are separated only in death, so that if the spirit is sanctified by the power of the Holy Spirit, the body is also healed of the sin in it by the same Spirit. It's not confusing.