All Israel is saved

Buzz_B said:

Satan became a murder when he deceived Eve. He murdered Eve with a lie and Adam thru her and thus all mankind, especially those who do not repent.

Click to expand...

Satan was a murderer 'from the beginning.' John 8:44 Eve was just routine for him.

Jesus warned. That if you have malicious anger for your brother in your heart that you have committed murder. Did he not? He also said that is a man lusts in his heart towards a woman that he has slready committed adultery with her. Did he not?

In other words. To God? Our thought hold power to make things happen. Its only at this time because of the fall that man's thoughts must remain cut off from the power to achieve what he thinks. We would all be dead if God did not.


So? How was Satan a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING?


13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.


What did Lucifer think in his heart towards the Lord? MURDER!

For .. if he could... Lucifer wanted to assassinate the Lord and take over His throne to take his place! That is why God had all the angels watching as Absalom wanted to murder his father David to take over David's throne! To see a type of reenactment of what took place in Lucifer's heart towards the Lord!

Fallen men who murder out of jealousy illustrates to the angels what Lucifer had in his heart towards the Lord... But? Lucifer was never allowed to act upon what he thought in his heart towards the Lord. Yet, Lucifer was judged instantly and severely disciplined in hopes he would repent.

God appreciates Satan causing the fall of man. For God could never have created man in a fallen state. For when man fell God was given living examples who act out overtly of what the fallen angels only could privately think in their heats towards the Lord. God judged them without them fully understanding why. That is because the angels came out of perfection and had no concept of what murder even was. Initially, they had no way to fully understand why they were judged so severely by God. What's death? What's murder? What's envy? They did not yet have those concepts understood. For prior to the fall of the angels all things in creation were perfect.

Man and his fallen state has been placed in the classroom of God for all angels to watch and to see themselves being manifested as if they could act upon what they desired in their hearts. They therefore can see what the Lord judged the fallen angels who had evil thoughts in their hearts but could not act upon them.

After all? Jesus said. If you have a malicious anger towards another? You have murdered.

Satan MURDERED the Lord in his heart when he desired to remove the Lord and take his place. He was a murderer from the beginning (of his fall).

Buzz_B said:

(Edit: Thank you for your humble response. I almost forgot to include that. I am definitely human.)....

Click to expand...

Whaaaat? LOL

If Christ had indeed gone to imprisoned human spirits it would have had been to far more than just those who sinned while the patience of God waited for man to repent in the days of Noah before the flood. For many people died since then by that time and a lot of them were wicked. And so that right there indicates it means that he had a message from his Father to deliver to the angels that sinned during that time. For those angels too sinned while the patience of God waited in the days of Noah and we have evidence that was why the earth became so incredibly wicked in those days.

Click to expand...

Jesus' soul went to hell for 3 days, while His body lay dead in a tomb, and His Spirit went to Heaven. Not sure if we agree on that, but anyway...

Jesus preached in hell for 3 days, to those
Inprisoned. I believed he preached to those saved living souls, that WOULD be LEAVING, and going to heaven.

Did He also preach to the Unsaved Souls ?
To also the fallen angels inprisoned ?

Everything in hell was inprisoned...
Saved souls, unsaved souls, fallen angles..
None could leave via their own will or power.

Take a simple verse like Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Click to expand...

All created Angels, are called sons of God.
All created Angels, HAD an estate, in the Heavens, God created as their estate.
Angels, who fell from Gods Grace, lost access to their original estate, and earth became their estate, and for some, hell became their estate.

We know no man after Adam's fall was considered a son of God because Paul tells us:

Click to expand...

Man was not "MADE" as a son of God.
Man was a form God MADE, and called a
Very good thing. That "thing", called man, a form from the dust of the ground, was being taught Gods Truth, by Gods Word.
Man also fell, from obedience to Gods Word.
Yet God has a merciful redemption offered to Man.
A man who becomes obedient to God, TO BELIEVE IN HIS WORD, becomes forgiven for not having BELIEVED, and such man is converted BY GOD, and THEN born of His SEED, and called a "son of God".

Even though Adam (who by the way, is male and female), disobeyed, Adam BECAME converted, and is called a "son of God".
Luke 3:38

Romans 8:20-21 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Click to expand...

Correct. The "creature" can "ONLY" be delivered out of bondage, ONLY "WITH" the Spirit of God.

And not everyone has, does, or will, ACCEPT the SPIRIT of God......but a FEW WILL.

And we know that liberation only began taking place as a result of Christ's death and the liberating of men from that futility and into the body of Christ.

Click to expand...

I don't know that.
OT men received SAVED souls and QUICKENED spirits, and were called SAINTS.
They ALSO had the Word of God IN THEM....

They simply DID NOT HAVE REVEALED TO THEM...Gods Word, is NAMED Jesus....and Gods Power, is NAMED Christ.

THe WORD of God, (ie named Jesus), is FIRST IN ALL THINGS..before mankind..
"even death".
The Word of God was MURDERED While mankinds "estate", ie (earth) was being formed.
Thus the Word of God was MURDERED, BEFORE mankind was created.

Besides that, there is absolutely no good reason to challenge the the sons of God spoken of at Job 1:6 and Job 2:1. For neither Satan nor his angels had yet been ousted from heaven:

Click to expand...

..sons of God....angels, or men who become sons of God, do not become..."not sons of God", because of their behavior.

Something called a "son of God", informs us,
The things being call a "son of God"...
Either IS a forever living "spirit", or
Has a forever living "spirit".

Jesus was called THEE "Son" of God.
He was not created, but IS the EVER lasting,
Without beginning or ending, SPIRIT of God.

He came forth OUT from God, and IS the Seed of God, the Word of God, the Power of God....that made and created ....
Angelic spirits, that can never die
(THEY are GIVEN their OWN great POWER to act....If they reject Him, they become forever separated from Him.
If they remain faithful to Him, they are forever WITH Him)

Mankind IS NOT a created spirit, but HAS a natural spirit from a mans seed.
"IF" <---- "IF" the man is GIVEN Gods SEED, the man thereafter "HAS" a forever NEW, born again, Living spirit, (from Gods Seed) that can not die or every become Separated from God. THAT spirit is forever KEPT faithful, TO GOD, "BY GODS OWN POWER", not the mans (physical muscle power or the mans spiritual power, but by Gods Power, IN and with the mans new spirit).

Luke 10:18-19 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Click to expand...

Yes. Satan has great power; to persuade, tempt, trick, deceive, lie, mimic things God has said will come to pass.....in an effort to KEEP men AS an ENEMY of God...
And as Luke 10:18-19 teaches...
A man WHO has overcome being Gods enemy, and believe IN GOD in his heart, is a man WHO thereafter HAS GODS POWER in Him, that TRUMPS Satan power, that Satan can NEVER SWAY that man AWAY FROM God.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Click to expand...

Yes, they lost access to their FIRST "estate".
And since then, are present on mans "estate", ie Earth, Tempting all of Gods enemies, to KEEP standing Against God, and remain Gods enemy.

And so 2 Peter 2:4 was not until Christ was on earth, just as is:

Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Click to expand...

Christ - the Power of God
Jesus - the Word of God

Has been ON earth, since it was created, and before mankind was created, to inhabit the Earth (mankinds estate) day 6.
.

And by the way, proclamations of the gospel does not mean general preaching but things like proclaiming the day of the Lord as John the Baptist in the wilderness was doing, which is also part of the gospel.

Click to expand...

BTW, teaching and preaching from the beginning, has been in man's own words, and are always approved of God, when a man's own words, are verified by Gods own teaching, preaching, spoken revelations, Truths.



God Bless,
SBC

Buzz_B said:

Cherubim are a kind of angel for they are messengers but with the special purpose of being responsible for protecting the sanctity of God's realm. We see that by searching the meanings in the Hebrew of the words there where you quoted from at Ezekiel 28. Check out the meaning of the word, "covereth", in your Hebrew Dictionaries. It means "blockade" as in one with the responsibility to not allow access. In other words to guard against violations of sanctity. That is what That Cherub was doing in the garden. His responsibility was to guard that tree of the knowledge of good and bad to prevent what happened. And that being his appointment he was there to keep the young couple away from that tree but violated his appointment and instead used a lie to entice Eve to it.

There is no way that John 8:44 can mean from Lucifer's beginning for Lucifer did not become Satan and the devil until he sinned and God gave him those designations as a result of his sin. Satan meaning, "resister" of God and devil meaning, "slanderer" of God.

We cannot say that Lucifer was Satan before that sin for a few good reasons, the first being the meaning of the names Satan and devil as I just gave. The second being because we can no more call the Cherub Lucifer Satan before his sin than we could call Jacob Israel before God named him Israel. And the third reason is revealed by a look at the Greek text of John 8:44

ekeinos anthrwpoktonos een ap archees kai en tee
THAT (ONE) MAN KILLER WAS FROM BEGINNING, AND IN THE
1565 0443 1511_3 0575 0746 2532 1722 3588
aleetheia ouk esteeken hoti ouk estin aleetheia en
TRUTH NOT HE HAS STOOD, BECAUSE NOT IS TRUTH IN
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autw hotan lalee to pseudos ek twn idiwn
HIM. WHENEVER HE MAY SPEAK THE LIE, OUT OF THE OWN (THINGS)
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lalei hoti pseustees estin kai ho pateer
HE IS SPEAKING, BECAUSE LIAR HE IS AND THE FATHER
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autou
OF IT.
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What I emboldened above unless twisted by those who really do not know Greek, means that he did not stay standing in the truth which as that is true it means he was standing in the truth when he began as Lucifer. But had Satan or the devil ever stood in the truth? Remember we can no more call Lucifer Satan before he sinned and God named him that than we can call Jacob Israel before God named him Israel. (And remember that you yourself pointed out the meaning of the name Jacob as the negative that it is and the name Israel for the positive it is. And that cinches that we cannot truthfully call Jacob Israel before God did and anyone that does so is sinning. So watch out for the poison of the Pharisees and the self-wise Rabbis and their inventions. "retroactive positional truth" rubbish.) And Jesus was speaking about their Father the devil and his beginning. And so even IF Jesus meant the devil's beginning that would not be Lucifer's beginning. And as I have well shown by his duty as a cherub what he was doing in that garden, that is clearly where he first sinned.

But, we have a fourth reason we know that is true. And I will ponder a bit before I tell you what it is. That fourth reason is so simple that if it were a snake it would bite us for failure to see it.

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Click to expand...

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible, which is found in Isaiah
14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This
so very often and little understood word comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply
means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance), MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance),
BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin
word which was translated from heylel. Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that
tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a
personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered
it as such.

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible,
which is found in Isaiah 14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven,
O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This so very often and little understood word
comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance),

MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius'

Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin word which was translated from heylel. Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered it as such.


The only other verse we can recall which mentions anything about Satan
in reference to light is II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform
himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not
transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been
to being light -- as a masquerading actor.

genez said:

Satan was a murderer 'from the beginning.' John 8:44 Eve was just routine for him.

Jesus warned. That if you have malicious anger for your brother in your heart that you have committed murder. Did he not? He also said that is a man lusts in his heart towards a woman that he has slready committed adultery with her. Did he not?

In other words. To God? Our thought hold power to make things happen. Its only at this time because of the fall that man's thoughts must remain cut off from the power to achieve what he thinks. We would all be dead if God did not.


So? How was Satan a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING?


13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.


What did Lucifer think in his heart towards the Lord? MURDER!

For .. if he could... Lucifer wanted to assassinate the Lord and take over His throne to take his place! That is why God had all the angels watching as Absalom wanted to murder his father David to take over David's throne! To see a type of reenactment of what took place in Lucifer's heart towards the Lord!

Fallen men who murder out of jealousy illustrates to the angels what Lucifer had in his heart towards the Lord... But? Lucifer was never allowed to act upon what he thought in his heart towards the Lord. Yet, Lucifer was judged instantly and severely disciplined in hopes he would repent.

God appreciates Satan causing the fall of man. For God could never have created man in a fallen state. For when man fell God was given living examples who act out overtly of what the fallen angels only could privately think in their heats towards the Lord. God judged them without them fully understanding why. That is because the angels came out of perfection and had no concept of what murder even was. Initially, they had no way to fully understand why they were judged so severely by God. What's death? What's murder? What's envy? They did not yet have those concepts understood. For prior to the fall of the angels all things in creation were perfect.

Man and his fallen state has been placed in the classroom of God for all angels to watch and to see themselves being manifested as if they could act upon what they desired in their hearts. They therefore can see what the Lord judged the fallen angels who had evil thoughts in their hearts but could not act upon them.

After all? Jesus said. If you have a malicious anger towards another? You have murdered.

Satan MURDERED the Lord in his heart when he desired to remove the Lord and take his place. He was a murderer from the beginning (of his fall).

Click to expand...

Correct. From the beginning of his fall. Not from Lucifer's beginning.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

that was my fourth reason. I already added it to that post. But you are going beyond waht is written. Probably because you still listen to the Rabbis and other Pharisees who have not the spirit of God.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

I disagree but I am not going to respond to your multiple post because I have not figured out this web page how to do so. So if you want t address each issue I would love to respond.

Click to expand...

I already addressed several points.
You can respond to ANY points by stating, ANY point you disagree with.

You pick an issue, you disagree with.

As of now, You simply said you disagree, so I must therefore believe you disagree with EVERY thing, EVERY point I made.

God Bless,
SBC

Soar Like and Eagle said:

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible, which is found in Isaiah.

Click to expand...

Because Lucifer was his name before he fell. After his fall he was darkness... not light.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible, which is found in Isaiah
14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This
so very often and little understood word comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply
means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance), MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance),
BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin
word which was translated from heylel. Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that
tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a
personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered
it as such.

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible,
which is found in Isaiah 14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven,
O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This so very often and little understood word
comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance),

MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius'

Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin word which was translated from heylel. Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered it as such.


The only other verse we can recall which mentions anything about Satan
in reference to light is II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform
himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not
transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been
to being light -- as a masquerading actor.

Click to expand...

yes that is right. And some think that star which led the magic practicing magi to Jesus whom Herod was using to find the baby Jesus to kill him was Satan for that very reason. He was high ranking as a Cherubim. To have responsibilities like spreading their wings over the holy Ark of the Covenant we know that had to be so.

And as that description also applies to Jesus rising in our hearts, we know that it demonstrates what
Ezekiel 28:15 says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

(Of course there in Isaiah it is actually the king of Tyre being counseled but by comparing his conduct to how Satan came to be.)

The really wild thing is that there are even some who teach Jesus was Satan just being portrayed in one of his many roles. I told you, I have heard it all. Very little surprises me these days. I thank God for the joy that every so often I yet learn something new but it is usually more in the way of perfecting my walk in Christ than it is in doctrine. And in that area I still have much learning to do.

Buzz_B said:

Correct. From the beginning of his fall. Not from Lucifer's beginning.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

that was my fourth reason. I already added it to that post. But you are going beyond waht is written. Probably because you still listen to the Rabbis and other Pharisees who have not the spirit of God.

Click to expand...

Yup!

That is why when the angels fell they had no concept of what it was the fallen angels desired in their hearts towards the Lord. So, enter man ... Satan then causes man's fall... and then, God can use man as a teaching tool to show the angels why He had to judge Satan and his angels. Because? The innocent angles still held a deep love for their fellow angels who fell, and were painfully confused as to why they had to separate from Satan and his angels. Fallen man illustrates what Satan and his angels thought in their hearts towards the Lord. We are God's evidence in the court hearing as Satan tries to make his appeal to have the sentence dropped. If you are an unbeliever? You are used as evidence. If you are a believer? God wants us to grow in grace and knowledge as to become witnesses in behalf for the Lord's integrity (Righteousness).

genez said:

God appreciates Satan causing the fall of man. For God could never have created man in a fallen state. For when man fell God was given living examples who act out overtly of what the fallen angels only could privately think in their heats towards the Lord. God judged them without them fully understanding why. That is because the angels came out of perfection and had no concept of what murder even was. Initially, they had no way to fully understand why they were judged so severely by God. What's death? What's murder? What's envy? They did not yet have those concepts understood. For prior to the fall of the angels all things in creation were perfect.

Click to expand...

In your post 361 genez, the quote I clipped here is about all I can really see where we begin to part company.

Your post 361 I thought otherwise was excellent reasoning.

genez said:

Yup!

That is why when the angels fell they had no concept of what it was the fallen angels desired in their hearts towards the Lord. So, enter man ... Satan then causes man's fall... and then, God can use man as a teaching tool to show the angels why He had to judge Satan and his angels. Because? The innocent angles still held a deep love for their fellow angels who fell, and were painfully confused as to why they had to separate from Satan and his angels. Fallen man illustrates what Satan and his angels thought in their hearts towards the Lord. We are God's evidence in the court hearing as Satan tries to make his appeal to have the sentence dropped. If you are an unbeliever? You are used as evidence. If you are a believer? God wants us to grow in grace and knowledge as to become witnesses in behalf for the Lord's integrity (Righteousness).

Click to expand...

You see, the problem I have with that concept of their having no understanding is two-fold. One is that if that were true then they would all fall just as we have.

But:
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

So i believe you are wrong that angels could not understand beforehand.

Yes we are a "theatrical spectacle" but for the reason that our overcoming is what judges those fallen angels as it proves that they are without excuse and ratifies the justice of God's tossing them into the symbolic lake of fire meaning their complete destruction. (And also probably a bit comical to the loyal angels when they watch our stupid mistakes. I know that shoe fits me. )

SBC said:

Whaaaat? LOL



Jesus' soul went to hell for 3 days, while His body lay dead in a tomb, and His Spirit went to Heaven. Not sure if we agree on that, but anyway...

Jesus preached in hell for 3 days, to those
Inprisoned. I believed he preached to those saved living souls, that WOULD be LEAVING, and going to heaven.

Did He also preach to the Unsaved Souls ?
To also the fallen angels inprisoned ?

Everything in hell was inprisoned...
Saved souls, unsaved souls, fallen angles..
None could leave via their own will or power.

Click to expand...

That is going to take some pondering for me to even know what i want to say.

SBC said:

All created Angels, are called sons of God.
All created Angels, HAD an estate, in the Heavens, God created as their estate.
Angels, who fell from Gods Grace, lost access to their original estate, and earth became their estate, and for some, hell became their estate.



Man was not "MADE" as a son of God.
Man was a form God MADE, and called a
Very good thing. That "thing", called man, a form from the dust of the ground, was being taught Gods Truth, by Gods Word.
Man also fell, from obedience to Gods Word.
Yet God has a merciful redemption offered to Man.
A man who becomes obedient to God, TO BELIEVE IN HIS WORD, becomes forgiven for not having BELIEVED, and such man is converted BY GOD, and THEN born of His SEED, and called a "son of God".

Click to expand...

I agree, barring debate on the finite details of hell. But they certainly are the masters of hell being as they are responsible for helping to get men there.

SBC said:

Even though Adam (who by the way, is male and female), disobeyed, Adam BECAME converted, and is called a "son of God".
Luke 3:38

Click to expand...

There I think your are mistaken for Adam was the son of God when first created. And that is what Luke is referring when speaking of birth lineage.

SBC said:

Correct. The "creature" can "ONLY" be delivered out of bondage, ONLY "WITH" the Spirit of God.

And not everyone has, does, or will, ACCEPT the SPIRIT of God......but a FEW WILL.



I don't know that.
OT men received SAVED souls and QUICKENED spirits, and were called SAINTS.
They ALSO had the Word of God IN THEM....

They simply DID NOT HAVE REVEALED TO THEM...Gods Word, is NAMED Jesus....and Gods Power, is NAMED Christ.

THe WORD of God, (ie named Jesus), is FIRST IN ALL THINGS..before mankind..

Click to expand...

Agree

SBC said:

"even death".
The Word of God was MURDERED While mankinds "estate", ie (earth) was being formed.
Thus the Word of God was MURDERED, BEFORE mankind was created.

Click to expand...

I disagree. The first he tasted death is very clearly said to be as a man, for he came as a man so he could taste death. And besides that death is not really a "thing." It is a condition caused of sin and Jesus never sinned which is why he was delivered from death when he tasted it on our behalf as a human.

I will add this however, he was the first fully righteous man to taste death and the first fully righteous man to be raised from death.

SBC said:

..sons of God....angels, or men who become sons of God, do not become..."not sons of God", because of their behavior.

Something called a "son of God", informs us,
The things being call a "son of God"...
Either IS a forever living "spirit", or
Has a forever living "spirit".

Jesus was called THEE "Son" of God.
He was not created, but IS the EVER lasting,
Without beginning or ending, SPIRIT of God.

He came forth OUT from God, and IS the Seed of God, the Word of God, the Power of God....that made and created ....
Angelic spirits, that can never die
(THEY are GIVEN their OWN great POWER to act....If they reject Him, they become forever separated from Him.
If they remain faithful to Him, they are forever WITH Him)

Mankind IS NOT a created spirit, but HAS a natural spirit from a mans seed.
"IF" <---- "IF" the man is GIVEN Gods SEED, the man thereafter "HAS" a forever NEW, born again, Living spirit, (from Gods Seed) that can not die or every become Separated from God. THAT spirit is forever KEPT faithful, TO GOD, "BY GODS OWN POWER", not the mans (physical muscle power or the mans spiritual power, but by Gods Power, IN and with the mans new spirit).





Yes. Satan has great power; to persuade, tempt, trick, deceive, lie, mimic things God has said will come to pass.....in an effort to KEEP men AS an ENEMY of God...
And as Luke 10:18-19 teaches...
A man WHO has overcome being Gods enemy, and believe IN GOD in his heart, is a man WHO thereafter HAS GODS POWER in Him, that TRUMPS Satan power, that Satan can NEVER SWAY that man AWAY FROM God.



Yes, they lost access to their FIRST "estate".
And since then, are present on mans "estate", ie Earth, Tempting all of Gods enemies, to KEEP standing Against God, and remain Gods enemy.




Christ - the Power of God
Jesus - the Word of God

Has been ON earth, since it was created, and before mankind was created, to inhabit the Earth (mankinds estate) day 6.
.



BTW, teaching and preaching from the beginning, has been in man's own words, and are always approved of God, when a man's own words, are verified by Gods own teaching, preaching, spoken revelations, Truths.



God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

You are going to have to keep your posts shorter for this tired old man. I became too wore out from reading to even know what I think of the rest. I do know i saw much that I agree with.

I just want to take a moment and thank everyone of you for the most enjoyable day of conversation I believe i have had since joining this site. You are a wonderful bunch of people and today you have proved that to me.

I have to sign off for a few hours but look forward to speaking with you all some more later.

God Bless,

Buzz_B said:

Exodus 14:13 “Moses said to the people, “Don't be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of Yahweh, which he will work for you today: for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you shall never see them again.”

Never see them again? Wait one minute, ClemtofA and Soar Like and Eagle claim God is going to save literally all human souls. That surely could not have been what Moses believed. For he was certain, “the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you shall never see them again.”

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Try a literal translation that doesn't deceive:

Young's Literal Translation
And Moses saith unto the people, 'Fear not, station yourselves, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which He doth for you to-day; for, as ye have seen the Egyptians to-day, ye add no more to see them -- to the age;

The key Hebrew word there is olam(age) which corresponds to the Greek words aion & aionios.

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

http://concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Buzz_B said:

Psalms 37

1 (By David.) Don't fret because of evil-doers, Neither be envious against those who work unrighteousness.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, And wither like the green herb.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off, But those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the land.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn't there.
11 But the humble shall inherit the land, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

18 Yahweh knows the days of the perfect. Their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be disappointed in the time of evil. In the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish. The enemies of Yahweh shall be like the beauty of the fields. They will vanish— Vanish like smoke.

22 For such as are blessed by him shall inherit the land. Those who are cursed by him shall be cut off.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; Live securely forever.
28 For Yahweh loves justice, And doesn't forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, But the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, And live in it forever.

34 Wait for Yahweh, and keep his way, And he will exalt you to inherit the land. When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

37 Mark the perfect man, and see the upright, For there is a future for the man of peace.
38 As for transgressors, they shall be destroyed together. The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Indeed if it were true what ClementofA and Soar Like And Eagle claim, surely our loving Father would directly say so somewhere in the Scriptures but he does not.
There are a few places which can be twisted as meaning that but a closer look always proves the idea wrong. As verse 20 above shows, the wicked pass away as does smoke as clearly contrasted to the righteous person who lives forever because he chose to do right. That contrast would be meaningless if the wicked person was not indeed gone forever.

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Verse 20 says they vanish, but it doesn't say forever. After all, they will be resurrected. So the reference is only to this life & or age. Re the deceptive translation "forever" (literally, eon, age), see my previous post. And compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

"The word "perish" here would be applicable to any form of destruction - death here, or death hereafter - for it is equivalent to the idea that they shall be "destroyed." Whether the psalmist means here to refer to the fact that they will be cut off from the earth, or will be punished hereafter in the world of woe, cannot be determined from the word itself. It is most probable, as appears from other parts of the psalm, that he refers particularly to the fact that they will be cut down in their sins; that their lives will be shortened by their crimes; that they will by their conduct expose themselves to the displeasure of God, and thus be cut off." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/37-20.htm

ClementofA said:

Try a literal translation that doesn't deceive:

Young's Literal Translation
And Moses saith unto the people, 'Fear not, station yourselves, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which He doth for you to-day; for, as ye have seen the Egyptians to-day, ye add no more to see them -- to the age;

The key Hebrew word there is olam(age) which corresponds to the Greek words aion & aionios.

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

http://concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

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Thank you, but I have many different references I have collected over the years and I do use them all for comparison. Some I even have combined in a program where i can bring up similar sections all at once to page thru.

I do not mean to ignore you but I really did intend to get off here and rest but then got tempted by the Alerts Button above.

Later and God bless,

ClementofA said:

Verse 20 says they vanish, but it doesn't say forever. After all, they will be resurrected. So the reference is only to this life & or age. Re the deceptive translation "forever" (literally, eon, age), see my previous post. And compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

"The word "perish" here would be applicable to any form of destruction - death here, or death hereafter - for it is equivalent to the idea that they shall be "destroyed." Whether the psalmist means here to refer to the fact that they will be cut off from the earth, or will be punished hereafter in the world of woe, cannot be determined from the word itself. It is most probable, as appears from other parts of the psalm, that he refers particularly to the fact that they will be cut down in their sins; that their lives will be shortened by their crimes; that they will by their conduct expose themselves to the displeasure of God, and thus be cut off." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/37-20.htm

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Now you are annoying me. Probably because i am too tired.

I should have gotten off here hours ago. I was up most of the night last night and have not slept any today. That is not good for this old man.

Good day.

Buzz_B said:

That is going to take some pondering for me to even know what i want to say.

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Okay

I agree,

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barring debate on the finite details of hell. But they certainly are the masters of hell being as they are responsible for helping to get men there.

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Okay

There I think your are mistaken for Adam was the son of God when first created. And that is what Luke is referring when speaking of birth lineage.

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I don't believe human men are 'created", sons of God, because I do not believe, a human man can "BE" a son of God, UNTIL, the mans natural spirit is BORN of Gods SEED".

I also believe a natural man, can not become "Born of Gods SEED", until after he is FORGIVEN.

Adam rebelled against God, and required Forgiveness for his rebellion.

Before Adam was cast out of the Garden,
What was later taught, to men, ie Blood of an animal would be asseptable for their forgiveness and covering of their SIN, had occurred for Adam...

Gen 3:21

I disagree. The first he tasted death is very clearly said to be as a man, for he came as a man so he could taste death. And besides that death is not really a "thing." It is a condition caused of sin and Jesus never sinned which is why he was delivered from death when he tasted it on our behalf as a human.

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Murdering the Word of God, is to STAND against the Word of God, attempting to make the Word of God....not true.

Lying about the Word of God, is to STAND against the Word of God, attempting to make the Word of God ....not true.

The Word of God IS TRUE, Period!
The Word of God IS without beginning or end.
The Word of God IS God, Period!

John 8:44
The devil was a murder and liar from the beginning.

He was present, in observing the earth being created, and began to think in his heart, he had the power to rise ABOVE God.

He, with the thoughts in his heart...
Murdered, Killed, and lied about the Word of God.

He, with the thoughts in his heart...
Caused his own demise, to lose abiding in his first "estate", and was cast DOWN. To earth, which is his present "estate".
And later he shall be CAST down from ON earth, lowed again, to hell, to the pit of hell, his final estate.

Isa 14:
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16,


Without the Word of Gods Death, no human man, could have been forgiven, and the man
Converted unto Gods likeness.

It does not matter, what "form", or "manner", the Word of God, is or is not seen.

It was murdered, killed, lied about...before mankind was created.

You are going to have to keep your posts shorter for this tired old man. I became too wore out from reading to even know what I think of the rest. I do know i saw much that I agree with.

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I try to be specific....especially in an age, where people misuse words, and have a free for all of what they personally think a word means.

God Bless,
SBC

Buzz_B said:

yes that is right. And some think that star which led the magic practicing magi to Jesus whom Herod was using to find the baby Jesus to kill him was Satan for that very reason. He was high ranking as a Cherubim. To have responsibilities like spreading their wings over the holy Ark of the Covenant we know that had to be so.

And as that description also applies to Jesus rising in our hearts, we know that it demonstrates what
Ezekiel 28:15 says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

(Of course there in Isaiah it is actually the king of Tyre being counseled but by comparing his conduct to how Satan came to be.)

The really wild thing is that there are even some who teach Jesus was Satan just being portrayed in one of his many roles. I told you, I have heard it all. Very little surprises me these days. I thank God for the joy that every so often I yet learn something new but it is usually more in the way of perfecting my walk in Christ than it is in doctrine. And in that area I still have much learning to do.

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Here are the two verses that the religious world say they are speaking of Satan.



Where do we get the idea these verses are speaking of Satan?


Satan is a spirit. These verses are speaking of a man.


Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.

Buzz_B said:

37 Mark the perfect man, and see the upright, For there is a future for the man of peace.
38 As for transgressors, they shall be destroyed together. The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

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In Psa.37:38 the word for "future" is Strongs 319, acharith, ..end...latter part...of a man's life...outcome... "a future, i.e. a happy close of life, suggesting sometimes the idea of a posterity"..."issue of a course of action". There is no requirement to interpret that as referring to anything beyond the man's earthly life, or a coming age, as opposed
to final destiny.

A LXX translation of v.38 reads:

But transgressors shall be cut off together; the remnants of the wicked shall be rooted out. (CTT, LXX)

The Greek word for "cut off" & "rooted out" above is exolethreuó (Strongs # 1842). In Exodus 31:14 it occurs with the meaning of death. Death is not endless annihilation.

Spiros Zhodiates says the "word and its syn. never mean extinction, but a change of one's state involving retribution or punishment" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary", p.605).

The same word occurs in Acts 3:23:

"...the phrase which St. Peter uses was a very common one, from Genesis 17:14, for the sentence of death, cf. also Exodus 12:15; Exodus 12:19, Leviticus 17:4; Leviticus 17:9, Numbers 15:30." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/3-23.htm

Death does not equal endless annihilation. All will be resurrected!

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Buzz_B said:

It is true that a katakrino does not limit the kind of punishment to a particular thing for the kind of needed punishment is decide as a part of of the krino. But apoleia is the word for damnable at 2 Peter 2:1 and the verse clerly goes onto say, "and bring upon themselves swift destruction." The word destruction there being also apoleia which also means "to perish."

Do you need me to explain to you what "perish" means?

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Perish does not mean perish forever. But that's what you need to support your endless annihilation heresy.

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

In Acts 25:16 the word is used of death. Likewise in Deut.4:26, Esth.7:4, Prov.6:15, Isa.34:5, LXX. Yet death is temporary & will be reversed with the resurrection of all. So destruction does not have to mean finality or an irreversible state. Neither does it necessarily mean when applied to humans that they can't be saved. That has to be read into the text with fallible human opinion.

Apoleia is from apollumi which is used of the "lost" prodigal son who became "found", as well as the "lost" coin & sheep that were found (Luke 15). So clearly there is the possibility of salvation after being destroyed/lost.

Buzz_B said:

Why do you fight our God of justice? Do you believe it is wrong that God pays back evil eye for eye, in accord to evils destruction of life?

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I believe Scripture:

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Habakkuk 1:12
O Lord, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to CORRECT us, to punish us for our many sins.

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

God is love, not wrath. His wrath is used in love as a corrective punishment.

Buzz_B said:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

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The sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally. Men reap what they sow.

But you go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mt.9:13)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf