Saved by Faith or grace?

Wordkeeper

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That brought to mind a different scenario:

Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Here the wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christians (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). Some Christians will end up suffering the fate of Matthew 22:13 because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8); or because of unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The wedding garments represents the preparedness of the believer to celebrate the full, open, transparent revelation of the righteous requirements of God, as revealed in the wilderness.

Israel failed, insisting on going back to Egypt.
Jesus agreed, confirming that man does not live on bread alone, but by every word that comes out of God's mouth.
Simon Magus failed, like Israel, as did Ananias and Sapphira.

Don't come to the wedding feast with a basket to collect loaves and fishes. Come for plentiful supply of manna from heaven. Else you'll be necked out.

Grace was involved in the calling out of Egypt, even the bylanes were scoured to bring in the guests.

Only the sheep hear His voice. Are you His sheep?
 
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Wordkeeper

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Fact is, I can substitute "God's energy" into that exact verse, because this is what the word "grace" means in this exact context. What Orthodox Christians understand grace to be is different than what protestants define it as. Like I said before. I don't understand all the legalistic/formulaic philosophy of the reformation. It's too confusing and I'm just a simple believer.
The point is that grace must be antithetical to works, performance, meeting a standard.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of leniency or compliance? This question works. The answer is found in Eph 2.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of God's energy or adequate Gentile performance? This question doesn't work. It does not lead to the answer in Eph 2:28. They were included (saved) because of leniency (like Israel, the least of the nations) so no one could boast.

Everyone knows Scripture is confusing. That's why the Apostles wrote their Epistles. And recorded the basis for the Epistles, the words of Jesus, in the Gospels. Containing the key to understanding: ask for the leading of the Holy Spirit, everyday. If your earthly father never withholds that which is good for you, will your Heavenly Father deprive you of the Holy Spirit when you ask?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Ergon nomou are “works of the law”, cultic markers distinguishing Jews from Gentiles:

Nonconformist Chronicles

Quote
3) Third, The "New Perspective" on Paul's Theology of Righteousness and Justification:

New Perspective Challenges to the Protestant Theology of Righteousness

Justification

We're now ready to move on as I continue to pursue the background of Luther's views and critique his views in light of the New Perspective, while continuing to review where we've been.

Martin Luther, like most biblical interpreters, turned to Scripture for guidance in every day life. He discovered what he believed to be something of a parallel between the situation Paul addressed in books like Romans and Galatians and what Luther himself confronted in the Catholic Church. The parallel that Luther saw was that of legalism in both the Judaism of Paul’s day and the Catholicism of Luther’s own time.

Both the Judaizers of Paul’s day and the Catholic hierarchy of Luther’s were allegedly teaching salvation by works. Paul’s proclamation of “justification by faith” was understood by Luther as a corrective against Jewish legalism, especially as it had infiltrated the church.

Perhaps Luther’s first mistake was equating “justification” with “salvation” as if they were synonymous terms. His second mistake was to assert that Paul was opposing legalism, or “salvation by works.” As N.T. Wright has explained, Luther and later Protestantism had wrongly assumed that Jews of Paul’s day thought they made themselves right with God by pulling themselves up by their moral bootstraps. [1]

E.P. Sanders was the first to publish a comprehensive study to demonstrate that Second Temple Judaism had long been misinterpreted as a legalistic religion. His book, Paul and Palestinian Judaism, defends Judaism against the charge of legalism by quoting extensively from primary Jewish sources. What Sanders did not develop, however, was a theology of “justification” that went beyond the Lutheran understanding. [2]

Here is where N. T. Wright has picked up the ball and ran with it. He argues that Paul’s phrase “justification by faith” was not a corrective against Jewish legalism. The Hebrew Scriptures had already taught that salvation is by faith and not by works.

'Justification' does not refer to a point in time at which one is saved, but it is the declaration that one indeed demonstrates being in a right standing with the court. As opposed to being a polemic against legalism, “justification by faith” is how one demonstrates that they are in the right. This demonstration is not by works, meaning not by works of the law which set people apart based on “ethnic identity markers” prescribed by Moses. On the contrary, Paul argues that the justification of one’s belonging to God and his people is by faith in Christ and not by works of the law of Moses.
Here’s an interesting section

Romans 9 - 30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Interestingly we have this verse in the Old Testament as well

"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."(Psalm 32:2 KJV)

"
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin...Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom...Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me...Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."(Psalm 51:2,6,10,12 KJV)
 
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fhansen

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The point is that grace must be antithetical to works, performance, meeting a standard.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of leniency or compliance? This question works. The answer is found in Eph 2.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of God's energy or adequate Gentile performance? This question doesn't work. It does not lead to the answer in Eph 2:28. They were included (saved) because of leniency (like Israel, the least of the nations) so no one could boast.

Everyone knows Scripture is confusing. That's why the Apostles wrote their Epistles. And recorded the basis for the Epistles, the words of Jesus, in the Gospels. Containing the key to understanding: ask for the leading of the Holy Spirit, everyday. If your earthly father never withholds that which is good for you, will your Heavenly Father deprive you of the Holy Spirit when you ask?
Historically grace precedes everything, whether faith or any works of love such as those mentioned in Eph 2. Technically we're not saved by either faith or works, but rather by grace. Both faith and works are responses to grace. Anyone is then "included in God's people" by an act of faith, but remains one of His people by continuing to follow Him in obedience of His will, which includes whatever He would have us do.
 
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Albion

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Historically grace precedes everything, whether faith or any works of love such as those mentioned in Eph 2. Technically we're not saved by either faith or works, but rather by grace. Both faith and works are responses to grace. Anyone is then "included in God's people" by an act of faith, but remains one of His people by continuing to follow Him in obedience of His will, which includes whatever He would have us do.
This is true. The waters only become muddied when someone takes it a step further and insists that we are saved BY those works of charity and/or obedience, in whole or in part.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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Don't talk about Mosaic laws in this situation and complicate the discussion.

You would like it if Paul were not talking of Mosaic Laws. But Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) - Further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

I care not for Luther's teachings on biblical matters. The ex-Priest was no bible scholar. That rejected the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them the school of Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D. Were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Martin Luther - in his Commentary on St. John: "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
 
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Wordkeeper

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You would like it if Paul were not talking of Mosaic Laws. But Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) - Further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

I care not for Luther's teachings on biblical matters. The ex-Priest was no bible scholar. That rejected the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them the school of Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D. Were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Martin Luther - in his Commentary on St. John: "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
Deuteronomy 7:7The LORD did not set his love on you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Did God choose Israel because she deserved it? If not, why did He choose her?

Ephesians 2:11, 12
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Did God include Gentiles because they deserved it? If not, why did He include them?
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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Deuteronomy 7:7The LORD did not set his love on you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Did God choose Israel because she deserved it? If not, why did He choose her?

God's one reason for revealing Himself to Israel and choosing them to be His holy people was because of love.
Ephesians 2:11, 12
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Did God include Gentiles because they deserved it? If not, why did He include them?

The Gentiles lacked knowledge of the One, true God, worshipped false gods, and they had no hope of salvation because they did not have the messianic expectation promised by the prophets. But through Christ Jesus all these barriers between Jews and Gentiles have been transcended (verses 13-14) by Jesus' fulfillment of the cultic rituals of the old Mosaic Law like circumcision, dietary requirements, and animal sacrifice (verse 15). Christ, "our peace" (verse 14) has brought us the spiritual peace of being reconciled with God the Father (Jn 14:27; Rom 5:1). In Christ Jews (the circumcised) and Gentiles (the uncircumcised) are united into a single religious community (verses 15-16), and imbued with the same Holy Spirit they worship the same God and Father.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Historically grace precedes everything, whether faith or any works of love such as those mentioned in Eph 2. Technically we're not saved by either faith or works, but rather by grace. Both faith and works are responses to grace. Anyone is then "included in God's people" by an act of faith, but remains one of His people by continuing to follow Him in obedience of His will, which includes whatever He would have us do.
Even though it is by faith we enter into the grace

We have still been given grace for grace. The free gift of God’s seed has been sown in the hearts this is the word of God this word is the true Light that reproves all sin in our hearts as we hear this word and come close to this word our faith lays hold and our faith comes by hearing this word.

Jesus still said to some “where is your faith ?”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Deuteronomy 7:7The LORD did not set his love on you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Did God choose Israel because she deserved it? If not, why did He choose her?

Ephesians 2:11, 12
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Did God include Gentiles because they deserved it? If not, why did He include them?

This is true. The waters only become muddied when someone takes it a step further and insists that we are saved BY those works of charity and/or obedience, in whole or in part.

God's one reason for revealing Himself to Israel and choosing them to be His holy people was because of love.

The Gentiles lacked knowledge of the One, true God, worshipped false gods, and they had no hope of salvation because they did not have the messianic expectation promised by the prophets. But through Christ Jesus all these barriers between Jews and Gentiles have been transcended (verses 13-14) by Jesus' fulfillment of the cultic rituals of the old Mosaic Law like circumcision, dietary requirements, and animal sacrifice (verse 15). Christ, "our peace" (verse 14) has brought us the spiritual peace of being reconciled with God the Father (Jn 14:27; Rom 5:1). In Christ Jews (the circumcised) and Gentiles (the uncircumcised) are united into a single religious community (verses 15-16), and imbued with the same Holy Spirit they worship the same God and Father.

I see the "things we believe" and "the things we do" as different sides of the same coin called faith.

It's both/and though, not either/or. God calls us; He offers us faith so to speak; He gives us the reason (truths to believe in) and means and power to believe but we can nevertheless refuse His calling. So grace leads to more grace, depending on how or whether we receive it. We respond to the gift of grace, to God, by believing, and that introduces us into a life of grace.

But, yes, faith is our first act, and it's important to emphasize that it's a free act even as God helps us to make it.
Some may see my words who are among the Roman Catholics or some other groups as an acceptance of their doctrine. But nothing could be further from the truth I quote a man I believe that comes close to what I have been saying ,

“As many as resist not this Light, but receive the same, it becomes in them a holy, pure, and spiritual birth, bringing forth holiness, righteousness, purity, and all those other blessed fruits, which are acceptable to God, by which holy birth, to wit, Jesus Christ formed within us, and working his works in us, as we are sanctified, so are we justified in the sight of God, according to the apostle's words: "But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). Therefore it is not by our works wrought in our will, nor yet by good works, considered as of themselves; but by Christ, who is both the gift and the giver, and the cause producing the effects in us, who, as he hath reconciled us while we were enemies, doth also in his wisdom save us, and justify us after this manner, as saith the same apostle elsewhere, "According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Tit. 3:5).”

And

“For the Papists, they say they obtain remission of sins, and are justified by the merits of Christ, as the same are applied unto them in the use of the sacraments of the church, and are dispensed in the performance of such and such ceremonies, pilgrimages, prayers, and performances, though there be not any inward renewing of the mind, nor knowing of Christ inwardly formed; yet they are remitted and made righteous ex opere operato, because of the power and authority accompanying the sacraments and the dispensers of them.

The Protestants say that they obtain remission of sins, and stand justified in the sight of God by virtue of the merits and sufferings of Christ, not by infusing righteousness into them, but bypardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous: they resting on him, and his righteousness by faith; which faith, the act of believing, is not imputed unto them for righteousness.

So the justification of neither here is placed in any inward renewing of the mind, or by virtue of any spiritual birth or formation of Christ in them; but only by a bare application of the death and sufferings of Christ outwardly performed for them: whereof the one lays hold on a faith resting upon them, and hoping to be justified by them alone; the other by the saying of some outward prayers and ceremonies, which they judge makes the death of Christ effectual unto them. I except here (being unwilling to wrong any) what things have been said as to the necessity of inward holiness, either by some modern Papists, or some modern Protestants, who insofar as they have laboured after a midst betwixt these two extremes, have come near to the Truth, as by some citations out of them, hereafter to be mentioned, will appear; though this doctrine hath not, since the apostasy, so far as ever I could observe, been so distinctly and evidently held forth according to the Scripture's testimony, as it hath pleased God to reveal it and preach it forth in this day by the witnesses of his Truth whom he hath raised to that end; which doctrine, though it be briefly held forth and comprehended in the thesis itself, yet I shall a little more fully explain the state of the controversy as it stands betwixt us and those that now oppose us.

§III. First then, as by the explanation of the former thesis appears, we renounce all natural power and ability in ourselves, in order to bring us out of our lost and fallen condition and first nature; and confess that as of ourselves we are able to do nothing that is good: so neither can we procure remission of sins or justification by any act of our own so as to merit it or draw it as a debt from God due unto us, but we acknowledge all to be of and from his love, which is the original and fundamental cause of our acceptance.

Secondly, God manifested this love towards us in the sending of his beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, into the world, who gave himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour; and having made peace through the blood of his cross, that he might reconcile us unto himself, and by the Eternal Spirit offered himself without spot unto God, and suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us unto God.

Thirdly then, forasmuch as all men who have come to man's estate (the man Jesus only excepted) have sinned, therefore all have need of this Saviour, to remove the wrath of God from them, due to their offences; in this respect, he is truly said to have "borne the iniquities of us all in his body on the tree," and therefore is the only Mediator, having qualified the wrath of God towards us; so that our former sins stand not in our way, being by virtue of his most satisfactory sacrifice, removed and pardoned. Neither do we think that remission of sins is to be expected, sought, or obtained any other way, or by any works or sacrifice whatsoever (though, as has been said formerly, they may come to partake of this remission that are ignorant of the history). So then Christ by his death and sufferings hath reconciled us to God, even while we are enemies, that is, he offers reconciliation unto us, we are put into a capacity of being reconciled, God is willing to forgive us our iniquities and to accept us, as is well expressed by the apostle (2 Cor. 5:19): "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath put in us the word of reconciliation." And therefore the apostle, in the next verses, entreats them "in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God"; intimating, that the wrath of God being removed by the obedience of Christ Jesus, he is willing to be reconciled unto them, and ready to remit the sins that are past, if they repent.

We consider then our redemption in a two-fold respect or state, both which in their own nature are perfect though in their application to us the one is not, nor cannot be, without respect to the other.

The first is the redemption performed and accomplished by Christ for us in his crucified body without us. The other is the redemption wrought by Christ in us, which no less properly is called and accounted a redemption than the former. The first then is that whereby man, as he stands in the fall, is put into a capacity of salvation, and hath conveyed unto him a measure of that power, virtue, spirit, life, and grace that was in Christ Jesus: which, as the free gift of God, is able to counterbalance, overcome, and root out the evil seed wherewith we are naturally as in the fall, leavened.

The second is that whereby we witness and know this pure and perfect redemption in ourselves, purifying, cleansing, and redeeming us from the power of corruption, and bringing us into unity, favour, and friendship with God.”
 
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God's one reason for revealing Himself to Israel and choosing them to be His holy people was because of love.


The Gentiles lacked knowledge of the One, true God, worshipped false gods, and they had no hope of salvation because they did not have the messianic expectation promised by the prophets. But through Christ Jesus all these barriers between Jews and Gentiles have been transcended (verses 13-14) by Jesus' fulfillment of the cultic rituals of the old Mosaic Law like circumcision, dietary requirements, and animal sacrifice (verse 15). Christ, "our peace" (verse 14) has brought us the spiritual peace of being reconciled with God the Father (Jn 14:27; Rom 5:1). In Christ Jews (the circumcised) and Gentiles (the uncircumcised) are united into a single religious community (verses 15-16), and imbued with the same Holy Spirit they worship the same God and Father.
Did God choose Israel or the Gentiles because they were righteous, had good works? Did any have reason to boast?

Romans 3:9_12
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
 
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Historically grace precedes everything, whether faith or any works of love such as those mentioned in Eph 2. Technically we're not saved by either faith or works, but rather by grace. Both faith and works are responses to grace. Anyone is then "included in God's people" by an act of faith, but remains one of His people by continuing to follow Him in obedience of His will, which includes whatever He would have us do.
You have to make a distinction between choice of nations and choice of individuals. God choose the nation of Israel in the womb before the founders of either Israel or Edom had done either good or bad. Nations are being spoken of because Esau never ever served Jacob, but Edom did become a slave to Israel.

In the case of individuals, God does not decide, it is the individual who decides, whether he or she follows God or not.
 
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Did God choose Israel or the Gentiles because they were righteous, had good works? Did any have reason to boast?

Romans 3:9_12
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”


In verse 9 Paul announces that both Jews and Gentiles are sinners. In this passage it would be a shocking scandal for Jewish Christians to be told that they were considered to be in the same position as Gentile sinners a universal solidarity composed of unworthy sinners alienated from fellowship with a righteous God!

Then in verses 10-18 Paul quotes a series of 7 verses; 5 from the Psalms and one verse each from Isaiah and Proverbs all from the Septuagint translation: Psalm 14:1-3 "Not one of them is upright, not a single one, not a single one is wise, not a single one seeks God. All have turned away, all alike turned sour, not one of them does right, not a single one." - Psalm 5:9"Their throats are wide-open graves, their tongues seductive." - Psalm 140:4[3] "Viper's venom behind their lips;" Psalm 10:7 - "Their speech is full of cursing and bitterness." Proverbs 1:16 -"Their feet quick to shed innocent blood," Isaiah 59:7-8 - "wherever they go there is havoc and ruin." And another Psalm you can find out for yourself.

These Old Testament passages and Paul's statements that teach from them are a review of what Paul has been saying about the spiritual condition which refers not only to the Jews but to the worldwide infection of sin upon mankind.

Your point is?
 
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The point is that grace must be antithetical to works, performance, meeting a standard.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of leniency or compliance? This question works. The answer is found in Eph 2.

Are the Gentiles included in God's People because of God's energy or adequate Gentile performance? This question doesn't work. It does not lead to the answer in Eph 2:28. They were included (saved) because of leniency (like Israel, the least of the nations) so no one could boast.

Everyone knows Scripture is confusing. That's why the Apostles wrote their Epistles. And recorded the basis for the Epistles, the words of Jesus, in the Gospels. Containing the key to understanding: ask for the leading of the Holy Spirit, everyday. If your earthly father never withholds that which is good for you, will your Heavenly Father deprive you of the Holy Spirit when you ask?
Grace is not "antithetical" to works, performance, or meeting a standard. Grace is the power of God working to effect His providential will, and the power of the Holy Spirit in people enabling them to Live according to the will of God. This, at least, is the Biblical definition of grace, especially in Paul's epistles.

I didn't say Scripture is confusing. Scripture becomes confusing only when interpreted by the mere rational powers of men (which is exactly what happens when sola scriptura is implemented) rather than the mind illumined by the action of God's grace upon the soul. Grace is the power of God effecting the restoration of Communion between us and our God.

What did we need saved from? We fell out of Communion with God and became dead, spiritually, and then physically. How did God save us? He became flesh, preached the good news of the restoration of Communion with God, died, rose again, ascended to God in the flesh, and poured out the Holy Spirit onto all flesh, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit (grace) we can now be made alive again in Communion with God. "Salvation" is "Communion". It is what Adam lost, and Christ restored. What does the Bible say that the Kingdom of Heaven is again? "...righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17) All of these things are here... now... because of the Holy Spirit, yet also coming at the end of the ages when God will be "all in all".
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo said in post #133:

Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Good point.

It is sometimes claimed that James' justification by works (James 2:24) is referring only to justification before men.

But the truth is that the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.
 
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LoveofTruth said in post #134:

The old man can do nothing. Only when we are in Christ can we bear fruit of the Spirit.

That's right (John 15:5).

For it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

LoveofTruth said in post #134:

A good tree produces good fruit it cannot produce corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree poduces corrupt fruit it cannot produce good fruit.

That's right (Matthew 7:16-20).

But note that Matthew 7:16-20 is not (as is sometimes claimed) contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to bring forth some corrupt fruit, as in some unrepentant sinful actions, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27). Similarly, Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fail to bring forth good fruit, as in becoming utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Instead, regarding Christians, Matthew 7:16-20 is showing how to determine whether a Christian is "good" or has wrongly employed his free will to return to being corrupt (2 Peter 2:20-22).
 
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In verse 9 Paul announces that both Jews and Gentiles are sinners. In this passage it would be a shocking scandal for Jewish Christians to be told that they were considered to be in the same position as Gentile sinners a universal solidarity composed of unworthy sinners alienated from fellowship with a righteous God!

Then in verses 10-18 Paul quotes a series of 7 verses; 5 from the Psalms and one verse each from Isaiah and Proverbs all from the Septuagint translation: Psalm 14:1-3 "Not one of them is upright, not a single one, not a single one is wise, not a single one seeks God. All have turned away, all alike turned sour, not one of them does right, not a single one." - Psalm 5:9"Their throats are wide-open graves, their tongues seductive." - Psalm 140:4[3] "Viper's venom behind their lips;" Psalm 10:7 - "Their speech is full of cursing and bitterness." Proverbs 1:16 -"Their feet quick to shed innocent blood," Isaiah 59:7-8 - "wherever they go there is havoc and ruin." And another Psalm you can find out for yourself.

These Old Testament passages and Paul's statements that teach from them are a review of what Paul has been saying about the spiritual condition which refers not only to the Jews but to the worldwide infection of sin upon mankind.

Your point is?
So both Israel and Gentiles were included in the people of God without good works. Don't say works of law are being addressed here in EPHESIANS 2:8, 9.
 
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Grace is not "antithetical" to works, performance, or meeting a standard. Grace is the power of God working to effect His providential will, and the power of the Holy Spirit in people enabling them to Live according to the will of God. This, at least, is the Biblical definition of grace, especially in Paul's epistles.

I didn't say Scripture is confusing. Scripture becomes confusing only when interpreted by the mere rational powers of men (which is exactly what happens when sola scriptura is implemented) rather than the mind illumined by the action of God's grace upon the soul. Grace is the power of God effecting the restoration of Communion between us and our God.

What did we need saved from? We fell out of Communion with God and became dead, spiritually, and then physically. How did God save us? He became flesh, preached the good news of the restoration of Communion with God, died, rose again, ascended to God in the flesh, and poured out the Holy Spirit onto all flesh, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit (grace) we can now be made alive again in Communion with God. "Salvation" is "Communion". It is what Adam lost, and Christ restored. What does the Bible say that the Kingdom of Heaven is again? "...righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17) All of these things are here... now... because of the Holy Spirit, yet also coming at the end of the ages when God will be "all in all".
The meaning of antithetical is opposite. For example, free is antithetical to chargeable. In Ephesians 2:8, 9 Paul says God's choice of Gentiles was by grace, leniency, not contingent on meeting His standards. Leniency is contrasted with strict. Capiche?
 
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The meaning of antithetical is opposite. For example, free is antithetical to chargeable. In Ephesians 2:8, 9 Paul says God's choice of Gentiles was by grace, leniency, not contingent on meeting His standards. Leniency is contrasted with strict. Capiche?
Thank you, I'm aware of the definition of antithetical, having looked it up prior to responding. But grace does still not mean "favor". It still means the uncreated energies of God at work in the world and in persons. That grace was at work in the souls and bodies of certain Jews, especially in the likes of Abraham, in whom not only the Israelites were blessed, but many Orthodox Christians who are "true Israelites indeed, in whom there is no guile". Where do you suppose that Abraham got his great faith from? You don't think that the Holy Spirit had been working in certain mysterious ways to bring this about in the person of Abraham? Do you also suppose that Abraham Himself never had any say in how he responded to the persuasion of the Holy Spirit? We (Orthodox Christians) see grace at work everyday. It is a matter of experiencing the very presence of God in this world, working countless miraculous and wondrous deeds, leaving no doubt that God is with us. But not just with us, but in us as well.
 
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