Christmas Gifts

CherubRam · Jan 21, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
that's what I said...

Sorry, my post was for Dave W.

Open Heart · Jan 21, 2018

HARK! said:

I don't know where you got this from, but it is factually wrong. NOne of these characters is supposed to have been born on December 25, except for Jesus (and that is only one theory).

Open Heart · Jan 21, 2018

HARK! said:
We've been over this before. The word day isn't even in the Greek text. Go back and read again.

Is the word first there or not?

CherubRam · Jan 22, 2018

Open Heart said:
I don't know where you got this from, but it is factually wrong. NOne of these characters is supposed to have been born on December 25, except for Jesus (and that is only one theory).

Christ was born in the middle of September, that is when the Romans were taking the survey.

The Roman Empire declared December 25 a holiday to celebrate the birth of the Syrian god Sol Invictus in 274 A.D.

Roman Emperor Constantine officially adopted December 25 as the day for celebrating the birth of Christ.

The virgin Egyptian queen Mut-em-ua gave birth to Pharaoh Amenkept III. Mut-em-ua had been told she was with child by the god Taht, and the god Kneph impregnated her by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth. Amenkept’s birth was celebrated by the gods and by three kings, who offered him gifts.

Some versions of the Mithra’s story makes him the son of a virgin. His birth is on December 25th, and he was seen by shepherds and Magi, who brought gifts to a cave, the place of his birth.

As for the other accounts, who cares.

True Judaism and true Christianity have been in a continual struggle against Pagan's and Gnostic's.

Dave-W · Jan 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
That time and that year the weekly Sabbath and Passover were on the same day.

How so?

Do you know the exact year? And what evening the first glimpse of the New Moon occurred on? (which means you can tell me if that evening was cloudy or clear)

Dave-W · Jan 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Christ was born in the middle of September, that is when the Romans were taking the survey.

The records of when that tax/census was taken were burned up in Pompeii.

Open Heart · Jan 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Roman Emperor Constantine officially adopted December 25 as the day for celebrating the birth of Christ.

You don't seem to have a basic understanding how the Catholic/Orthodox church is run. Secular rulers have absolutely no say in determining doctrine, disciplines, or traditions, such as feast days.

In the beginning it was up to the individual bishop whether a feast was even celebrated, and if so, when. Various feast days even included in March, April, May, etc. By the beginning of the 4th century, the churches in the west had pretty much settled on December 25, and churches in the east on January 6. I think they are actually the same *date*, just different calendars. But it was not yet official.

It was Pope Julius who made the official decision that for the Western church at least, the official date of the Feast of the Nativity would b December 25.

Now that is someone who has authority. Not a secular ruler.

CherubRam · Jan 23, 2018

Open Heart said:
You don't seem to have a basic understanding how the Catholic/Orthodox church is run. Secular rulers have absolutely no say in determining doctrine, disciplines, or traditions, such as feast days.

In the beginning it was up to the individual bishop whether a feast was even celebrated, and if so, when. Various feast days even included in March, April, May, etc. By the beginning of the 4th century, the churches in the west had pretty much settled on December 25, and churches in the east on January 6. I think they are actually the same *date*, just different calendars. But it was not yet official.

It was Pope Julius who made the official decision that for the Western church at least, the official date of the Feast of the Nativity would b December 25.

Now that is someone who has authority. Not a secular ruler.

Your spitting out all kinds of garbage and do not know what you are talking about. In those days the ruler was head of the nation and religion.

The first recorded date of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th was in 336, during the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine (he was the first Christian Roman Emperor). A few years later, Pope Julius I officially declared that the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on the 25th December.

Open Heart · Jan 24, 2018

CherubRam said:
Your spitting out all kinds of garbage and do not know what you are talking about. In those days the ruler was head of the nation and religion.

The rule could make a religious decision i.e. that HE was a god and everyone had to worship him. That's his OWN religion. But he could not interfere in other set religions and tell them how to run their own show. Not Judaism. Not paganism. Not Christianity.

HARK! · Jan 28, 2018

Open Heart said:
Is the word first there or not?

Maybe, maybe not. πρωτη can also be translated as "before." Do you believe that Yahshua would tell his disciples to break YHWH's law by working on Pesach?

Open Heart · Jan 29, 2018

HARK! said:
Maybe, maybe not. πρωτη can also be translated as "before." Do you believe that Yahshua would tell his disciples to break YHWH's law by working on Pesach?

What are you talking about? Seems like you are switching the subject.

CherubRam · Jan 29, 2018

Open Heart said:
The rule could make a religious decision i.e. that HE was a god and everyone had to worship him. That's his OWN religion. But he could not interfere in other set religions and tell them how to run their own show. Not Judaism. Not paganism. Not Christianity.

A Catholic is a Catholic, not a Messianic.

Roman Emperor Constantine officially adopted December 25 as the day for celebrating the birth of Christ, before pope Julius.

Open Heart · Jan 29, 2018

CherubRam said:
A Catholic is a Catholic, not a Messianic.

Roman Emperor Constantine officially adopted December 25 as the day for celebrating the birth of Christ, before pope Julius.

As you can see from the title under my name, I am a Messianic Jewish Catholic. Please don't presume to tell me what I am and what I am not. I know quite a few Messianic Jewish Catholics.

Please provide a quotation and link to a legitimately HISTORICAL website (IOW not an anti-Catholic website) that states Constantine passed canon law that December 25 was the Feast of the Nativity, binding on the entire Western Church.

Here are examples of the kind of thing I expect from you. Notice I am providing quotes and citations from a historical/archaeological site.

The December 25 feast seems to have existed before 312—before Constantine and his conversion, at least. As we have seen, the Donatist Christians in North Africa seem to have known it from before that time. Furthermore, in the mid- to late fourth century, church leaders in the eastern Empire concerned themselves not with introducing a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, but with the addition of the December date to their traditional celebration on January 6....

How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archaeology Society

In 337 Pope Julius I formalized the date of Christmas for the Christian Church (today divided into Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, and Protestant

www.italyheritage.com/traditions/calendar/december/december-25-why.htm

HARK! · Jan 29, 2018

Open Heart said:
before Constantine and his conversion

Constantine was a sun worshiper. His coins were inscribed with "SOLI INVICTO COMITI," or companion to the sun god, until the day he died.

HARK! · Jan 29, 2018

Sol Invictus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mosaic of Sol in Mausoleum M in the Vatican Necropolis [1]
Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") was the official sun god of the later Roman Empire and a patron of soldiers. On 25 December 274 AD the Roman emperor Aurelian made it an official cult alongside the traditional Roman cults.[2] Scholars disagree about whether the new deity was a refoundation of the ancient Latin cult of Sol,[3] a revival of the cult of Elagabalus,[4] or completely new.[5] The god was favored by emperors after Aurelian and appeared on their coins until Constantine I.[6] The last inscription referring to Sol Invictus dates to AD 387,[7] and there were enough devotees in the 5th century that the Christian theologian Augustine found it necessary to preach against them.[8]

[SNIP]

Aurelian

Roman Imperial repoussé silver disc of Sol Invictus (3rd century), found at Pessinus (British Museum)
The Roman gens Aurelia was associated with the cult of Sol.[25] After his victories in the East, the Emperor Aurelian thoroughly reformed the Roman cult of Sol, elevating the sun-god to one of the premier divinities of the Empire. Where previously priests of Sol had been simply sacerdotes and tended to belong to lower ranks of Roman society,[26] they were now pontifices and members of the new college of pontifices instituted by Aurelian. Every pontifex of Sol was a member of the senatorial elite, indicating that the priesthood of Sol was now highly prestigious. Almost all these senators held other priesthoods as well, however, and some of these other priesthoods take precedence in the inscriptions in which they are listed, suggesting that they were considered more prestigious than the priesthood of Sol.[27] Aurelian also built a new temple for Sol, which was dedicated on December 25, 274,[28] and brought the total number of temples for the god in Rome to (at least) four.[29] He also instituted games in honor of the sun god, held every four years from a.d. 274 onwards.

The identity of Aurelian's Sol Invictus has long been a subject of scholarly debate. Based on the Augustan History, some scholars have argued that it was based on Sol Elagablus (or Elagabla) of Emesa. Others, basing their argument on Zosimus, suggest that it was based on the Šams, the solar god of Palmyra on the grounds that Aurelian placed and consecrated a cult statue of the sun god looted from Palmyra in the temple of Sol Invictus.[30] Professor Gary Forsythe discusses these arguments and adds a third more recent one based on the work of Steven Hijmans. Hijmans argues that Aurelian's solar deity was simply the traditional Greco-Roman Sol Invictus.[31]

Constantine

Coin of Emperor Constantine I depicting Sol Invictus with the legend SOLI INVICTO COMITI, c. 315
Emperors portrayed Sol Invictus on their official coinage, with a wide range of legends, only a few of which incorporated the epithet invictus, such as the legend SOLI INVICTO COMITI, claiming the Unconquered Sun as a companion to the Emperor, used with particular frequency by Constantine.[32] Statuettes of Sol Invictus, carried by the standard-bearers, appear in three places in reliefs on the Arch of Constantine. Constantine's official coinage continues to bear images of Sol until 325/6. A solidus of Constantine as well as a gold medallion from his reign depict the Emperor's bust in profile twinned (jugate) with Sol Invictus, with the legend INVICTUS CONSTANTINUS[33]

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest (Codex Justinianus 3.12.2):

On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[34]
Constantine's triumphal arch was carefully positioned to align with the colossal statue of Sol by the Colosseum, so that Sol formed the dominant backdrop when seen from the direction of the main approach towards the arch.[35]

Sol Invictus - Wikipedia

HARK! · Jan 29, 2018

Rituals and worship
According to M. J. Vermaseren, the Mithraic New Year and the birthday of Mithras was on December 25.[54][55] However, Beck disagrees strongly.[56] Clauss states: "the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own. The festival of Natalis Invicti, held on 25 December, was a general festival of the Sun

Mithraism - Wikipedia

Open Heart · Jan 30, 2018

HARK! said:
Constantine was a sun worshiper. His coins were inscribed with "SOLI INVICTO COMITI," or companion to the sun god, until the day he died.

Constantine was a weird bird. He was a pagan, but he fought under the banner of the Christian Cross. He changed the Roman empire from being persecutorial towards Christians to being an empire with freedom of religion where Christians could worship freely like pagans. Indeed though he spent most of his life as a pagan, it is indisputable that he had a soft spot towards Christianity. Before he died, he was baptized a Christian. It is generally thought that the reason he did not convert earlier was because Christianity placed moral demands upon Christians that he believed he could not, as a King, keep.

SOLI INVICTO COMITI
Latin: to the unconquered Sun, minister [of the Emperor].

While previous emperors dedicated the coins to "Soli Invicto," Constantine coins are dedicated to "Soli Invicto Comiti." The word comiti, during imperial ages indicated a minister of the emperor (That's how the feudal title "count" originated). Even the two consuls where called "comites" (check on Du Cange glossarium of mediae et infimae latinitatis). The legend therefore reads: "to the unconquered Sun, minister (of the Emperor)." Basically it indicated that Sun was the maximum agency in the sky, as Constantine was on the earth; but both where subordinated to God.

Forum Ancient Coins

HARK! · Jan 30, 2018

Open Heart said:
Constantine was a weird bird. He was a pagan, but he fought under the banner of the Christian Cross. He changed the Roman empire from being persecutorial towards Christians to being an empire with freedom of religion where Christians could worship freely like pagans. Indeed though he spent most of his life as a pagan, it is indisputable that he had a soft spot towards Christianity. Before he died, he was baptized a Christian. It is generally thought that the reason he did not convert earlier was because Christianity placed moral demands upon Christians that he believed he could not, as a King, keep.

Constantine told the true believers in Yahshua to bring all of the writings to the Council of Nicea, a Pagan council. After he gathered up all of the writings, the Pagan council decided what the new Syncretic religion would be. All of the scrolls that didn't fit in to this Pagan council's syncretism, were burned. After that, it was submit to the new religion, be exiled, or die.

Open Heart said:
While previous emperors dedicated the coins to "Soli Invicto," Constantine coins are dedicated to "Soli Invicto Comiti." The word comiti, during imperial ages indicated a minister of the emperor (That's how the feudal title "count" originated). Even the two consuls where called "comites" (check on Du Cange glossarium of mediae et infimae latinitatis). The legend therefore reads: "to the unconquered Sun, minister (of the Emperor)." Basically it indicated that Sun was the maximum agency in the sky, as Constantine was on the earth; but both where subordinated to God.

Forum Ancient Coins

Really? LOL! You're going to present some forum post, in a desperate attempt to refute Wiki, to defend Constantine? The Pagan Sun god is right on his coin. It doesn't say anything about the Sun god being subordinate to YHWH.

Open Heart · Feb 1, 2018

HARK! said:
Constantine told the true believers in Yahshua to bring all of the writings to the Council of Nicea, a Pagan council. After he gathered up all of the writings, the Pagan council decided what the new Syncretic religion would be. All of the scrolls that didn't fit in to this Pagan council's syncretism, were burned. After that, it was submit to the new religion, be exiled, or die.

What fiction. Did you make this up yourself, or naively buy it hook line and sinker from some charlatan? Any proof of these things from legitimate historical websites? I thought not.

Really? LOL! You're going to present some forum post, in a desperate attempt to refute Wiki, to defend Constantine? The Pagan Sun god is right on his coin. It doesn't say anything about the Sun god being subordinate to YHWH.

1. The website I cited was not a forum. Had you visited it, you would not have made such a spurious claim.

2. You think I'm refuting the Wiki? Here is what Wikipedia has to say:
"Pope Julius I (died 12 April 352) was the 35th Pope of the Catholic Church from 6 February 337 to his death in 352. He was notable for asserting the authority of the pope over the Arian Eastern bishops, and also for setting the date of 25 December for celebrating the Nativity."
https://www.google.com/search?q=pop...5i39j69i57.10040j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

CherubRam · Feb 1, 2018

Confiscated Bibles were burned by the Catholics, also any additional biblical scrolls. The Hellenistic Jews also did that to the Hebrew Christians.

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world."

According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the Disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

History of Catholics burning scripture
History of Catholics burning scripture - Google Search

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