Faith without works, is dead...?

Ron Gurley · Jan 20, 2018

Obedience to earn salvation is a false doctrine of “works”.

Obedience as part of the sanctification process follows the salvation event... trust plus obey plus do good works

chilehed · Jan 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Comments...?

God Bless!

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat, meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah, which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it's about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the "obedience of faith". At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is Truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "works through charity."

These are all actions, things we do in obedience to God. Thus the Apostle Paul says in Romans 1:5 "Through Him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith...” This obedience is the essence of Christianity: submission to the Eternal One who was enfleshed, and through that submission being brought into union with Him so that we may participate in His divine life.

dqhall · Jan 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

When I was younger, I was working in a peach orchard in a mountain valley. The peach trees were not full sized, but they all had peaches on their branches. We picked peaches and emptied our containers into a row of bins on a trailer behind a tractor. We got to one tree that had waited too late to start producing peaches. It was near the end of the peach harvest and this tree had little immature peaches on its branches. The tractor driver unhooked the trailer from his tractor and slowly pushed the front wheel of his three wheel tractor into the trunk of this small tree. He pushed the accelerator and uprooted the tree. I assumed he was going to plant a new tree in its place.

Benjamin Franklin (1757) wrote:

"Never leave that till tomorrow, which you can do today."

‘Diligence is the mother of good luck, and God gives all things to industry. Then plough deep while
sluggards sleep, and you shall have corn to sell and to keep.’

https://tendimag.files.wordpress.co...ealth-by-benjamin-franklin-1757-smse-2010.pdf

lamb7 · Jan 20, 2018

I've always wondered what "Works" entailed? I feel it is more than doing good deeds. I wonder if it has to do with small stuff like how we treat our friends and families and how we conduct our behavior. thoughts?

Monna · Jan 20, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Matthew 7
6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Interesting that you start quoting at verse 6.

The first verses in the chapter also relate to judging people:
“Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. For the way you judge others is how you will be judged — the measure with which you measure out will be used to measure to you. Why do you see the splinter in your brother’s eye but not notice the log in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the splinter out of your eye,’ when you have the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First, take the log out of your own eye; then you will see clearly, so that you can remove the splinter from your brother’s eye!"

IMHO the first thing about judging, is that you should focus first on yourself. Remember Jesus responding to the Pharisees who brought the woman (but not the man) caught in adultery... "whoever among has never sinned may throw the first stone."

Paul says any church leader approaching someone who has sinned ( I assumed quite without a doubt done something known and accepted to be wrong), should do so with great humility, realising that they themselves can also commit sin. And when we look at God's own approach: "if we confess our sin (i.e. that something we have done is indeed a sin) God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " This speaks to the purpose of any "judging" that we might do of others - the motive is not condemnation and punishment, but cleansing and restoration. In our human legal systems, we want a confession to justify meting out punishment. Very different from God.

My own challenge surrounding this issue is knowing (discerning) the difference between "discerning" and judging. We need to develop the gift of discerning right from wrong, good from evil before we even think of judging anyone apart from ourselves.

Lasting, I remind myself, that no matter how may "good deeds" I do, they gain me no credit with God if they are not motivated by love (1 Cor. 13).

Shimshon · Jan 20, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
Obedience to earn salvation is a false doctrine of “works”.

Obedience as part of the sanctification process follows the salvation event... trust plus obey plus do good works

But the good works we do are not our own but that of the Spirit dwelling in us. And the works accomplished by the Spirit through us glorify God through Yeshua, not ourselves. We are pedestals placed with the banner 'YESHUA'. Any glory we have is his. And works we do are his. And any life we have, is his.

The gospel describes an Obedience that comes through faith…. and reveals a righteousness from God “that is by faith from first to last” Meaning the righteousness has to do with NOTHING else but faith.

We are commanded to believe (obedience that comes from faith), and this faith reveals a righteousness from God sent as a gift.

To believe in the result of one act of righteousness that justified and brought life to all men. That through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous through faith, by the grace of God.

The result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Grace reigns through (this) righteousness to bring eternal life through Yeshua.

Obedience that comes by faith….Faith observant! Observant to faith in the righteousness of Yeshua. Who he is and what he has done, for us. Grace reigns through the righteousness of Messiah, for all who are obedient in faith.

Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God– 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And;

Romans 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.-Ephesians 2:8-9

Deadworm · Jan 20, 2018

2 points should be made about this discussion of judgmentalism and faith versus works in James:

(1) The Greek (pistis) and Hebrew (amunah) words translated "faith" cannot be reduced to a one-to-one correspondence with the English word "faith." Rather, both the Greek and Hebrew words also mean "faithfulness." But how can we prove ourselves "faithful" apart from the right kind of loving "works?" That is part of James's point.

(2) Jesus actually teaches us to be judgmental: "If your brother sins, rebuke him; if he repents, forgive him (Luke 17:3)." We must be gentle in the way we are judgmental: "Brethren, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in the spirit of gentleness (Galatians 6:1)." But I am being judgmental if I detect a moral flaw in you and if I presume to try to restore you to good moral standing, then I must first feel entitled to find fault with you! But, you say, what about "Judge not, lest you be judged?" We must interpret that saying in terms of the next verse: "For with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:1-2)." In other words, in a sense God has no absolute standard of judgment, but rather judges us by the standard we apply to others. It's as if God says, "I'd rather not judge; so let's look at the standard to which you hold others. I mean, you think that's fair; so I'll apply that standard to you to see how you like it." I must keep these consequences in mind while I judge you in a righteous constructive way.

Even Paul teaches us to be judgmental:

DreamerOfTheHeart · Jan 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Three things, faith, hope, love.

Faith is one of those three.

Works comes from light, or they don't come from love.

Love is life is light.

Anymore questions?

carrwinn · Jan 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

carrwinn · Jan 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Hi . Faith and works starts with the individual but as Christians followers are to be collectively sharing in doing what the Bible teaches.
2 Timothy 3:16,17 tells us that all scripture is inspired of God, is there to benefit us and make us capable of being pleasing worshippers. Christians clearly then must demonstrate and not just profess a belief in God.(2 Timothy 3:1-6)
Believing and having evidence to defend the Christian faith is important.(Hebrews 11)
Preaching and teaching about God's kingdom which is the theme of the Bible would be critical.(Matthew 6:9,10) This demonstrates Christlike love for man and frees Christians from bloodguilt for not sounding a warning about the imminent destruction soon to overtake the earth.(Matthew 24;Revelation 6)
True Christians would be avid students of the Bible courageously guarding and protecting their precious relationship with God by disavowing adulterated and unscriptural teachings displeasing to God.(Matthew 7)

Neogaia777 · Jan 20, 2018

The Obedience/faith, that I have, that I now live, I live by the Faith/Love/Obedience/Grace of God, that is Christ, who now lives in me, (I can take no personal credit)", or something Paul was saying like that right...?

Galatians 2:20...

God Bless!

St_Worm2 · Jan 20, 2018

Monna said:
Interesting that you start quoting at verse 6.

The first verses in the chapter also relate to judging people: “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged.......

Hi Monna, the reason I started by pointing out v6 as an example is because of the way the Lord used it/juxtaposed it to v1 in Chapter 7 (v1's, "Do not judge .. PERIOD" being that which our atheist and liberal Christian friends consider the central, all-important message in the entire Bible .. though their interpretation of the first half of that verse, which again is .. "Do Not Judge .. no exceptions" .. can hardly be considered a proper exegesis

V6 makes it immediately and abundantly clear that we must "judge" certain things and are, in fact, commanded to do so by the Lord .. in this case we must decide (judge) who the dogs and swine are (which also ends any thoughts that, "Do not judge .. PERIOD", is the correct interpretation of that phrase in Matt 7:1a).

Gotta go right now, but you made some other interesting points above, so I hope to get a chance to reply to those as well.

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)!

--David

Brokenhill · Jan 21, 2018

I just wanted to repeat 2 Timothy 3:16-17

"16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

We should use God's Word, not our opinions, to judge those in the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 5 makes clear to not judge outsiders).

The other thing to note is that even if we are using God's word to judge...we need to make sure that the judgments we are making are not hypocritical (which is what Matthew 7:1 is really about).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 21, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace, this does not mean we can live however we like (and or sin and still be saved). God's grace is always followed by obedience. If not, then what separates the believer from the unbeliever? A belief alone? Does a belief alone really make someone a better person? There are many warnings in the Bible about having a belief alone with no works. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46). Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep my commandments (Matthew 19:17). Even believing in Jesus is a commandment or Law (See 1 John 3:23). The Bible talks about what happens to those who are lawless. If one is against Law they are against GOD. For the law is not made for a righteous man (i.e. somebody who obeys's God's laws). God's laws are made for those who are disobedient, ungodly, or sinners, etc.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:9).

Important:
The confusion arises on this issue is because people look to Paul condemning believers in following the Old Law as a means of justification alone without God's grace. For one, we are not under the Law given to Moses (Which was for Israel). Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). So God's laws have not been eliminated; They merely have changed between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Two, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. So Paul was condemning trying to be justified without God's grace by a system of works or law alone. This does not mean we are not justified by works. James even says point blank that we are justified by works.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5?
Both of those pieces of Scripture are talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 says Christ quickened us which is a one time event. Titus 3:5 talks about how we are renewed and regenerated by the Holy Ghost. This is talking about being born again spiritually which is also a one time event.

As for Judging other believers:

Not sure why you think that we cannot judge other believers. Jesus said judge righteously (See John 7:24). Paul says reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (See Ephesians 5:11). Paul also says Scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, etc (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17). There are even steps to properly correcting (judging) a brother who has wronged you (Matthew 18:15-17). So no. The idea that we cannot judge at all is unbiblical and even silly. For do you not think that certain sins are wrong in this world? By saying that certain sins are wrong you are in fact judging (because somebody out there is doing those kinds of sins). Granted, I do not think we should not forever condemn people (unless they committed an unforgivable sin) because there is still a new day whereby they can repent. In other words, we should focus on attacking the sin and not the person when we judge.

Neogaia777 · Jan 21, 2018

Jason0047 said:
While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace, this does not mean we can live however we like (and or sin and still be saved). God's grace is always followed by obedience. If not, then what separates the believer from the unbeliever? A belief alone? Does a belief alone really make someone a better person? There are many warnings in the Bible about having a belief alone with no works. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46). Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep my commandments (Matthew 19:17). Even believing in Jesus is a commandment or Law (See 1 John 3:23). The Bible talks about what happens to those who are lawless. If one is against Law they are against GOD. For the law is not made for a righteous man (i.e. somebody who obeys's God's laws). God's laws are made for those who are disobedient, ungodly, or sinners, etc.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:9).

Important:
The confusion arises on this issue is because people look to Paul condemning believers in following the Old Law as a means of justification alone without God's grace. For one, we are not under the Law given to Moses (Which was for Israel). Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). So God's laws have not been eliminated; They merely have changed between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Two, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. So Paul was condemning trying to be justified without God's grace by a system of works or law alone. This does not mean we are not justified by works. James even says point blank that we are justified by works.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5?
Both of those pieces of Scripture are talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 says Christ quickened us which is a one time event. Titus 3:5 talks about how we are renewed and regenerated by the Holy Ghost. This is talking about being born again spiritually which is also a one time event.

As for Judging other believers:

Not sure why you think that we cannot judge other believers. Jesus said judge righteously (See John 7:24). Paul says reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (See Ephesians 5:11). Paul also says Scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, etc (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17). There are even steps to properly correcting (judging) a brother who has wronged you (Matthew 18:15-17). So no. The idea that we cannot judge at all is unbiblical and even silly. For do you not think that certain sins are wrong in this world? By saying that certain sins are wrong you are in fact judging (because somebody out there is doing those kinds of sins). Granted, I do not think we should not forever condemn people (unless they committed an unforgivable sin) because there is still a new day whereby they can repent. In other words, we should focus on attacking the sin and not the person when we judge.

Yet, scripture notes the extreme dangers in judging though...

To where it might say, if you must judge, be very, very careful, and speak the truth in love...

We cannot take judging lightly... It should be handled with the utmost seriousness... And acute awareness of how you could be condemning your own self....

Were looking for fruit in the believer correct, well, what if it's not time yet...?

It does take time, like a plant, the believer does not instantly start producing fruit right away, but scripture says, they will, if they are genuine...

Can we be good judges of this, is the question, and should we...?

Then, what kind of fruits should be evident...? Maybe they like to do good deeds in secret, making it hard for anyone to know, let alone judge...

I personally love to do my good deeds when no one will ever know about it...

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jan 21, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Yet, scripture notes the extreme dangers in judging though...

To where it might say, if you must judge, be very, very careful, and speak the truth in love...

We cannot take judging lightly... It should be handled with the utmost seriousness... And acute awareness of how you could be condemning your own self....

Were looking for fruit in the believer correct, well, what if it's not time yet...?

It does take time, like a plant, the believer does not instantly start producing fruit right away, but scripture says, they will, if they are genuine...

Can we be good judges of this, is the question, and should we...?

Then, what kind of fruits should be evident...? Maybe they like to do good deeds in secret, making it hard for anyone to know, let alone judge...

I personally love to do my good deeds when no one will ever know about it...

God Bless!

I think it is a matter if we see that they are sinning openly and do not seem to care about it (like swearing without repentance, and or if they are involved in some kind of sexual immorality, etc.). Oh, and yes. We also cannot be doing these things and yet judge them for it. That would be silly to do that because that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. In other words, it boils down to seeing if they are not being loving to others. If they see a poor person who is crying for mercy and they step right over him as if he does not exist, there is a problem. The Moral Law is based on loving others. If there is no concern for the lost and or preaching the gospel at all, again, there is a problem. For we are to care about reaching the lost out of love for their soul.

Neogaia777 · Jan 21, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I think it is a matter if we see that they are sinning openly and do not seem to care about it (like swearing without repentance, and or if they are involved in some kind of sexual immorality, etc.). Oh, and yes. We also cannot be doing these things and yet judge them for it. That would be silly to do that because that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. In other words, it boils down to seeing if they are not being loving to others. If they see a poor person who is crying for mercy and they step right over him as if he does not exist, there is a problem. The Moral Law is based on loving others. If there is no concern for the lost and or preaching the gospel at all, again, there is a problem. For we are to care about reaching the lost out of love for their soul.

What if we use to do them, do we have a right to judge...?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 21, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
What if we use to do them, do we have a right to judge...?

Yes, because we have repented (asked God for forgiveness of these sins) and forsaked them (i.e. we no longer do these kinds of sins anymore). We are washed clean of our past sins by Christ. They are no more if we truly asked the Lord for forgiveness with a godly sorrow. For after we are born again spiritually we become new creations or creatures in Christ. The old ways are no more.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 21, 2018

I think there is a difference between judging righteously in love to lead one's fellow brethren to repent and do the right thing vs. condemning them. A situation where I see other Christians condemning others is when they start to make lists of men who are still alive who are not saved. This to me is not right because these individuals could repent tomorrow from after the point one writes bad things about them. So I always strive to focus my attack on the wrong belief or sin and not the sinner. For if I correct their wrong belief or tell them that a certain sin is wrong, God will convict them to repent.

RDKirk · Jan 21, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

James was dealing with early Docetists who already preached explicitly that faith and righteousness are otherworldly and did not result in any changes visible in this world, in the flesh; and that Christ Himself had never been in the real flesh.

However, James--like Paul--is preaching "new creation"--and that a new being would not behave like the old being, unless there had never actually been a new creation at all.

Faith without works, is dead...?

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