The Bible's Compatibility with Theistic Evolution

DavidFirth

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I never said that Genesis continued to be poetic when Adam was created. The creation of Adam was straight narrative of facts. The account goes from the general to the specific when the account of the creation of Adam began.

Trying to fit evolution into Genesis just doesn't work. Why would it take God a billion years to speak the universe into existence? Men are not related to and are not animals. Evolution puts Man on the same level as microbes and insects.

Don't let men cause you to doubt God's word.
 
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NobleMouse

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I never said that Genesis continued to be poetic when Adam was created. The creation of Adam was straight narrative of facts. The account goes from the general to the specific when the account of the creation of Adam began.
Thank you for clarifying brother Oscarr!
 
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NobleMouse

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  • John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Amen, and we'd have no idea when the Sabbath is if we could not recognize it as the 7th "day" of the week.
 
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Trying to fit evolution into Genesis just doesn't work. Why would it take God a billion years to speak the universe into existence? Men are not related to and are not animals. Evolution puts Man on the same level as microbes and insects.

Don't let men cause you to doubt God's word.
How come you are assuming that I am talking evolution when I have clearly stated that I don't believe in it? I am not sure that the universe came into being just because God said it and it magically jumped into being. God gave the word, there is no doubt about that, but exactly how that word of instruction was put into effect, we are not told. There is a problem when people read into the Bible what is not there and assumed that God just said it and it magically sprung out of nowhere.
There are other Scriptures that say that God hung the earth on nothing, and that He laid the foundations of the earth, and spread the stars out in space. This shows me that God not only issued instructions, but actually did a series of tasks to bring the universe and world into being. The Father is the designer and planner, the Son is the project manager, and the Holy Spirit is the power that got the job done.

The Bible is not a scientific text book, but it says that knowledge will increase. Scientific knowledge has comprehensively increase since Genesis was written. Moses probably believed that the universe and the earth were created in six days, because he had insufficient knowledge of science to think otherwise. They didn't have carbon dating in those days.

What I am saying is the God could have created everything in six days, and then again, He could have taken a billion years. We don't really know, because as I keep saying, the Bible is silent about the actual creation process, other some general indications written in semi-poetic language. Science has discovered that the geological formation of the earth took a lot longer than six 24 hour days 6000 years ago. This doesn't mean that this was evolution. When a house is constructed, we say it has been designed and built, not evolved. The earth was designed and built. It did not evolve over the billion years that it might have taken to construct it. The living plants and creatures did not evolve from an amoeba that crawled out of the primeval slime. They were all designed, "built" and put into place in the ecological balance. God was very specific (not poetical) in how He created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him.
 
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Oldmantook

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(5) Notice too how a poetic understanding of the universe's origin seems quite compatible with Big Bang scientific theory. In the ancient near east, there was no concept of the endless vacuum of outer space. Instead, they envisaged what we call outer space as "waters" separated from the earth-forming waters by a "dome" or "firmament." Notice then how God conveys an origin model that is compatible with Big Bang theory through the false ancient Israelite cosmology:
To assert that the ancient Israelite cosmology is false is to assert that the cosmology as described in the OT is false. Since all scripture is inspired by God, one must assume that all of the OT writers were inspired by God and thus their writings that pertain describing our cosmology are indeed accurate.
 
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Amen, and we'd have no idea when the Sabbath is if we could not recognize it as the 7th "day" of the week.
You are comparing apples with oranges. The "days" of creation are written that way to help readers to understand that God created the world in a specific time-frame with each component in its ordered sequence, and that world with its living plants and beings did not evolve by chance. This does not prove that those "days" were 24 hour days. But because it said that God rested on the seventh "day" (and are we still in the seventh "day" where the Lord is resting from further creation? Probably), the seventh 24 hour day is reserved our day of rest. But your quote says that a day is only 12 hours! So there is another definition of "day". So if I go by your quote, then God created the world and everything in it in six 12 hour days!! Really?
 
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To assert that the ancient Israelite cosmology is false is to assert that the cosmology as described in the OT is false. Since all scripture is inspired by God, one must assume that all of the OT writers were inspired by God and thus their writings that pertain describing our cosmology are indeed accurate.
Because the Bible was inspired by God, not dictated word for word, the writers in each time period the Bible was written would be influenced by the culture and the scientific beliefs of their day. Until scientific discovery in the Middle Ages showed that space was space and not a sea of waters surrounding the earth, that was what they believed. It is the same with Jesus and Paul, they taught to the people of their culture, without having any idea that things would change radically by the 21st Century. I think that Paul had no idea that there was going to be a 21st Century!

I think that because we believe that Paul was inspired of God when he wrote his letters, that he was a perfect person. He had his faults. Although Jesus said nothing about prohibiting women in ministry, and had a number of women supporters, and Mary (sister of Martha) sat and drank up His teaching and He did not prohibit her; and there were women among the 120 who were filled with the Holy Spirit, so we see that the Holy Spirit fell on women just the same as men, Paul had a misogynistic streak when it came to women contributing to worship and ministry, and his comments has caused women to be second class people in churches ever since and has been the basis for criticism of women in ministry. That was one of Paul's shortcomings. In fact, he was human just like all the rest of us. So there are parts of his letters that are really inspired by the Holy Spirit, and there are others from Paul in the culture that he lived in. This is in harmony with the rest of Scripture where the good and bad points of all the saints, both Old and New Testaments are clearly displayed,

Why have I said all that? I am making the point that God was not going to inspire Moses to write a whole lot of scientific fact about the creation of the world that would have gone right over his head. It was enough for Moses to know that God had a settled order and system for creating the world and everything in it, and it was enough to assure Moses and his readers that God created our world in a particular way and it did not evolve by chance. Moses was not a scientist, therefore he did not write a scientific treatise about the creation of the world, it would have confused him if he was given information that was foreign to his Egyptian view of the cosmos, because that would be the basis of his knowledge after spending the first 40 years of his life learning the Egyptian science of the time which did not include our 21st Century understanding of the cosmos.
 
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I think that if Moses had written the Creation story now in the 21st Century, given what he would know about the cosmos as it is known today, he may have written it differently and would not have used the analogy of the 24 hour day. If he had done so today, he would not have been credible to the many readers who had today's scientific knowledge and knew that the geology of the earth was billions of years old. Paul would not have downgraded women and would have given them equal status in Christian ministry.

But Moses would never have accepted evolution as God's method of forming the universe and the earth and everything on it. He would still have presented creation as God's systematic process but maybe in modern scientific terms.
 
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pat34lee

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The problem is that many fundamentalists who want to take the Bible ultra literally, read into Scripture that is not there. The OP's theories cannot be fully proved by the Genesis account, but they cannot be disproved either. and, God doesn't have to explain all His methods in how He created the universe and our world, in order for us to receive the details of His plan of salvation for mankind. That is what the Bible is written for - to show us how God works with mankind through the ages, why the fall happened, how His plans and purposes developed through the ages, culminating in the death and resurrection of Christ and the birth of the Christian Church. When we think of one day with God is as a thousand years, the creation of the earth was completed around six days ago, and the resurrection of Christ took place 2 days ago as far as He is concerned. He is in no hurry about things.

Actually, the ones adding to scripture are the evolutionists.

There is no gap in Genesis, and chapter 1 and 2 are not separate
creation accounts. There is no way to read the days with evening
and morning as anything but 24 hour days without changing the
meaning of the words.

I agree that all things are on God's timetable, not ours, and we
are about to enter the millennial sabbath rest.
 
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pat34lee

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I think that if Moses had written the Creation story now in the 21st Century, given what he would know about the cosmos as it is known today, he may have written it differently and would not have used the analogy of the 24 hour day. If he had done so today, he would not have been credible to the many readers who had today's scientific knowledge and knew that the geology of the earth was billions of years old. Paul would not have downgraded women and would have given them equal status in Christian ministry.

But Moses would never have accepted evolution as God's method of forming the universe and the earth and everything on it. He would still have presented creation as God's systematic process but maybe in modern scientific terms.

Why would he change what God told him to write? God knows
what he did and how he did it. The best science can do is look
at a completed puzzle and guess how it was created, much less
how it was assembled. And they don't know the half of it at that.
They still believe in the Oort cloud and dark matter and energy.
Pixie dust for the faithful believers.
 
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Deadworm

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Modern scholarship agrees that Genesis begins by splicing together 2 originally independent creation stories--the story of the 7 days of creation (1:1-3:4a) and the much older story of Adam and Eve (2:4b-3:24). The first story is poetically constructed to justify Sabbath rest and is used for worship in the Jerusalem Temple. One indication of this is its majestic liturgical repetition: "And God said...and it was so...And God saw that it was good...Evening came and morning followed, the first (second, etc.) day."

Daniel Fuller was a Fuller Seminary professor who is the conservative son of famed evangelist Charles E. Fuller, who for decades was the preacher on the radio program, "The Old Fashioned Revival Hour." I recall Prof. Fuller's plea for pastors to teach the consensus of modern scholarship on Genesis to their parishioners. The mass exodus of our youth can largely be blamed on a mindless denial of the discoveries of modern science and the evidence for evolution.

A literalistic mindset that ignores these 5 points will lead to the banishment of biblical faith to the dustbin of outdated mythologies:
(1) Evolution is not a theory about the origin of life. It is a theory of how life has evolved, once life has been created. Since none of you apparently has an answer for the example of evidence for evolution in the brief video I posted, you'd better reassess your spiritual priorities: What is more important to you--the salvation of our alienated and cynical younger generation or feeling right about your own Domino theory of biblical inspiration and your own literalistic interpretation of Genesis 1-3?

(2) The Hebrew term "yom" need not mean "day" in the literal sense of a 24 hour period. How can the first 2 days consist of 24 hour periods when the sun is not even created until the 4th day? How can vegetation thrive without the sun, which the story says was only created a day later?

(3) In the Genesis model, "a dome" separates "the waters above" (= outer space) from "the waters below." This is outdated superstitious nonsense that is ignorant of the vacuum of space that needs no dome. So a poetic interpretation of Genesis 1-3 is essential to the credibility of biblical creationism for thinking people.

(4) Do you actually find it credible to believe that snake crawl without limbs as a punishment for the Serpent's temptation of Eve (3:14)?

(5) Do you actually believe that humans would never have reproduced through procreation without the Fall (3:16)? And where did Adam's son Cain get his wife (4:17) and where did the other people in Cain's world come from? Sigh!
 
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Why would he change what God told him to write? God knows
what he did and how he did it. The best science can do is look
at a completed puzzle and guess how it was created, much less
how it was assembled. And they don't know the half of it at that.
They still believe in the Oort cloud and dark matter and energy.
Pixie dust for the faithful believers.
Are you saying that God dictated everything that Moses wrote word for word? Did Moses realise that when he compiled the Pentateuch that he was writing Holy Scripture inspired by God? I am not sure about that. We are not sure whether it was Moses who wrote it all, but a group of different authors who gave the credit to Moses for coordinating the writing. But then that is my guess, and my guess is as good as any. All we have to do is to read the history where Moses is mentioned in the third person to know that someone else wrote those sections. The popular and most logical theory about the compilation of the creation story is that the different oral traditions were collected and synthesised into what we know is the Biblical account of the creation. We also know that systems of written language existed long before Moses came on the scene, but any written records of the creation story may have been lost through the passage of time. We have no way of knowing whether there was written language before the Flood, but there very well could have been, but were lost in the Flood. We are not told whether Noah and his family could read and write, but that could very well be possible. Who knows? Asking questions like this is not questioning the inspiration of God in how Moses got his information about Creation because how he got the information is inconsequential to the fact that it was recognised b the Jewish religious leaders as inspired Scripture once it was set out in writing.
 
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DavidFirth

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How come you are assuming that I am talking evolution when I have clearly stated that I don't believe in it? I am not sure that the universe came into being just because God said it and it magically jumped into being. God gave the word, there is no doubt about that, but exactly how that word of instruction was put into effect, we are not told. There is a problem when people read into the Bible what is not there and assumed that God just said it and it magically sprung out of nowhere.
There are other Scriptures that say that God hung the earth on nothing, and that He laid the foundations of the earth, and spread the stars out in space. This shows me that God not only issued instructions, but actually did a series of tasks to bring the universe and world into being. The Father is the designer and planner, the Son is the project manager, and the Holy Spirit is the power that got the job done.

The Bible is not a scientific text book, but it says that knowledge will increase. Scientific knowledge has comprehensively increase since Genesis was written. Moses probably believed that the universe and the earth were created in six days, because he had insufficient knowledge of science to think otherwise. They didn't have carbon dating in those days.

What I am saying is the God could have created everything in six days, and then again, He could have taken a billion years. We don't really know, because as I keep saying, the Bible is silent about the actual creation process, other some general indications written in semi-poetic language. Science has discovered that the geological formation of the earth took a lot longer than six 24 hour days 6000 years ago. This doesn't mean that this was evolution. When a house is constructed, we say it has been designed and built, not evolved. The earth was designed and built. It did not evolve over the billion years that it might have taken to construct it. The living plants and creatures did not evolve from an amoeba that crawled out of the primeval slime. They were all designed, "built" and put into place in the ecological balance. God was very specific (not poetical) in how He created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him.

Even if you don't believe in evolution you sure do stick in evolutionary ideas as possible ways to interpret Genesis. If it weren't for scientists' ideas you'd never have thought it might have taken more than 6 actual days for God to create because that is what the text clearly says.

If you just read the text there are no years in Creation, just days. If you don't believe in evolution do try to stop interpreting the Bible as if you did.

The Theory of Evolution has no basis for reality except in the minds of those who reject God as Creator.
 
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Oldmantook

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Because the Bible was inspired by God, not dictated word for word, the writers in each time period the Bible was written would be influenced by the culture and the scientific beliefs of their day. Until scientific discovery in the Middle Ages showed that space was space and not a sea of waters surrounding the earth, that was what they believed. It is the same with Jesus and Paul, they taught to the people of their culture, without having any idea that things would change radically by the 21st Century. I think that Paul had no idea that there was going to be a 21st Century!
So some parts are inspired and other parts not? If "word for word" dictation is not so according to you, then what words in your opinion are inspired and what words by the same token, are not inspired? Is all of the creation account inspired or only part of it? Ps 19:6 describes the sun making its circuit to the other end. Does the sun orbit around the earth or does the earth orbit around the sun? Joshua in 10:12-13 commanded both the sun and the moon to stand still. The heliocentric model posits that the sun is stationary while the moon orbits around the earth. Was Joshua wrong in commanding the sun to stand still but correct in commanding the moon to stand still? In 2 Kings 20:9-11 and Isaiah 38:8, God caused the shadow of the sun to move back across Ahaz's stairs. In order for that to happen, under the heliocentric model, the earth would have had to suddenly stop moving at its equator at 1,000 mph, begin rotating in the opposite direction and then stop once more and return to spinning in its normal rotation. One only imagine what the inhabitants of the earth would experience under those conditions as it would be akin to a freight train suddenly slamming on its brakes; throwing its occupants violently forward. Given that biblical account, it is more plausible that the sun moves instead of the earth. I far as I can determine, the scriptures never depict a picture of a moving earth but instead a fixed and stationary earth.

Paul had a misogynistic streak when it came to women contributing to worship and ministry, and his comments has caused women to be second class people in churches ever since and has been the basis for criticism of women in ministry.
Paul had a misogynistic streak? Your cultural bias is showing. Paul himself states that the reason for the different role of men and women in ministry is due to the created order of things - not misogyny.

I am making the point that God was not going to inspire Moses to write a whole lot of scientific fact about the creation of the world that would have gone right over his head.
You underestimate Moses. His was quite learned and educated as he grew up in Pharaoh's household. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand how the earth and cosmology functions. After all, we are taught the heliocentric model in grade school. The germane question is, is the heliocentric model consistent with, or opposed to God's Word?
 
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So some parts are inspired and other parts not? If "word for word" dictation is not so according to you, then what words in your opinion are inspired and what words by the same token, are not inspired?
Nothing I say is inspired. I wouldn't be so arrogant. It's all my own opinion. So that answers that question.

Paul had a misogynistic streak? Your cultural bias is showing. Paul himself states that the reason for the different role of men and women in ministry is due to the created order of things - not misogyny.
Paul was the only person who said it. Neither Jesus nor any of the other Apostles gave similar teaching. It is also a contradiction of Paul's own statement that there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.

You underestimate Moses. His was quite learned and educated as he grew up in Pharaoh's household. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand how the earth and cosmology functions. After all, we are taught the heliocentric model in grade school. The germane question is, is the heliocentric model consistent with, or opposed to God's Word?
It all depends on how extensively the Egyptians understood the cosmology of the universe. We don't know, because all records that might have given us more light were lost when the great library of Alexandria was destroyed.
 
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Even if you don't believe in evolution you sure do stick in evolutionary ideas as possible ways to interpret Genesis. If it weren't for scientists' ideas you'd never have thought it might have taken more than 6 actual days for God to create because that is what the text clearly says.

If you just read the text there are no years in Creation, just days. If you don't believe in evolution do try to stop interpreting the Bible as if you did.

The Theory of Evolution has no basis for reality except in the minds of those who reject God as Creator.
It all depends on the definition of "days". There is a contradiction between the discoveries of the age of the earth through carbon dating and the standard fundamentalist interpretation of the Genesis account. If carbon dating of items was accurate for items less than 6000 years old as they have been, why not for items dated millions of years old? Is carbon dating for some items accurate and some not? And how do you determine the difference? How do you account for some distant stars that the light has only just reached us after travelling millions of years through space, that a supernova we have only just spotted happened so long ago? If the universe suddenly happened 6000 years ago, how could it be that light from a distant star, which was supposed to be created 6000 years ago, the light of which would take millions of years to reach us? If that was so, we wouldn't see the star, because its light would be still on its way to us and not reached us yet.

If, say, God did kick-start the universe with a big bang at a central point, which is the best explanation that scientists have to account for the universe expanding in all directions, then that central point must be billions of light years away from where our galaxy and solar system are right now. So, if it has taken a billion light years for our galaxy to travel from the central point, and incidentally, a light year is how far light travels in a year, and the galaxies would not be travelling that fast because they would not be expanding at the speed of light, then the universe must be trillions of years old. Of course, that amount of time would mean nothing to God, because time has no beginning or end for Him therefore there is no point Him making things happen fast or slower than what it needs to happen. He is not going anywhere, and He can take as long as He likes to create a universe and set it in motion.

So the question arises: How old was the universe when the world was created? If our sun and moon were not in place until the third "day", where were they? Were they there, and God had not got His lighter out and fired it up until then?

I am not saying that God cannot create a whole universe and our world in six days, but the question remains, did He? Or did He take longer? Modern scientific discoveries about the universe including carbon dating and the Hubble Telescope raises questions. (I am not saying they are important ones because how the world was created is inconsequential to the importance of having our faith firmly settled in Christ).

But evolution is a totally different story. I involves a denial of God creating the universe and our world. It proposes that it all happened by chance over billions of years and that our universe is self sustaining, which is contrary to Scripture, and there is no designer and that every living creature including man, developed over millions of years from a single cell greebly that crawled out of the primeval sludge after being hit by a bolt of lightning. There is absolutely no substantive evidence anywhere in science to prove it. It is all theory and speculation by people who don't want to believe that the universe was designed and created by an all-powerful God, so that He could create a race of humans with whom He can have pleasurable and fulfilling fellowship.
 
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DavidFirth

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How do you know the dating methods are accurate? How do you know whether or not God created everything in such a way to where scientists assume they are millions of years old when God has already told them about how old they are?

Who's smarter, God or scientists?
 
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Oldmantook

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Nothing I say is inspired. I wouldn't be so arrogant. It's all my own opinion. So that answers that question.
I did not state that YOU are inspired. I stated that Scripture is inspired. By virtue of your claim that Scripture was not dictated word for word, for all practical purposes you become the judge of which words are inspired and which are not. So that answers your question.

Paul was the only person who said it. Neither Jesus nor any of the other Apostles gave similar teaching. It is also a contradiction of Paul's own statement that there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.
"Neither man or woman" is related to our position in Christ - not our functions in the body of Christ.
Your argument is an argument of silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. Just because the other NT writers were silent on the subject, that in itself does not invalidate Paul's writings. After all, ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16-17) - including Paul's writings. Your view makes you the judge of whether Paul's writings are inspired or not.

It all depends on how extensively the Egyptians understood the cosmology of the universe. We don't know, because all records that might have given us more light were lost when the great library of Alexandria was destroyed.
We have the biblical record which is more than adequate if you ask me. As I wrote earlier, children are taught cosmology in grade school. Not that difficult is it?
 
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I did not state that YOU are inspired. I stated that Scripture is inspired. By virtue of your claim that Scripture was not dictated word for word, for all practical purposes you become the judge of which words are inspired and which are not. So that answers your question.
What I said was that Moses was not aware of the time of compiling the Genesis account that he was being inspired by God. The only direct evidence of God dictating word for word are the tablets on which the finger of God wrote the Ten Commandments. In fact they were more than dictations. God wrote them Himself. The only other words that were dictations word for word in the Old Testament were the prophecies that Moses and the Prophets received, and which were prefixed: "Thus says the Lord."

"Neither man or woman" is related to our position in Christ - not our functions in the body of Christ.
Your argument is an argument of silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. Just because the other NT writers were silent on the subject, that in itself does not invalidate Paul's writings. After all, ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16-17) - including Paul's writings. Your view makes you the judge of whether Paul's writings are inspired or not.
If the Bible is silent about something it means that God neither approves or disapproves of it. Paul acknowledges that the Old Testament was inspired, but then he is looking at them with the 20 20 vision of hindsight.

By the way, do you usually use "you" messages when you debate with people. Sounds like you are being my judge. Probably unintentional - just your style of debating.

We have the biblical record which is more than adequate if you ask me. As I wrote earlier, children are taught cosmology in grade school. Not that difficult is it?

We don't know what cosmology Egyptian children were taught. The knowledge that the Egyptians had were destroyed by religious zealots who believed that all knowledge coming out of pagan cultures was evil. That was the motive behind the destruction of the Great Alexandria Library. The Egyptians were the most technologically advanced culture in the world at the time of Moses, and the destruction of the Library put technology back over 1000 years.
 
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thesunisout

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When the evidence is examined carefully the conclusion is inescapable. It takes more faith to believe in evolution and long ages than it does the biblical account. I choose to believe Gods word, and it turns out that we have a lot of good evidence to support it. But even if we didn't it still would be the most rational thing to do.
 
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