New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

BABerean2 · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Such a sacrilegious answer is unfitting to a person who claims to be a spiritual teacher. Do you imagine that the God who created heaven and earth, does not have is own method of determining who He credits as being the true descendants of the ancient nation of Israel?

You have repeatedly refused to show the difference between "us" and "Israel".

Now you label anyone who calls you on the charade as "sacrilegious".

I will ask again...

How much of Abraham's or Jacob's DNA does one need to be in the category of "Israel"?

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the most important genealogy in the Bible is Matthew 1:1, and you refuse to acknowledge the warnings below about using genealogy in our faith.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The truth of the matter is, based on modern DNA science many of those that you label as "us" are direct descendants of Abraham and or Jacob.

Biblewriter · Jan 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have repeatedly refused to show the difference between "us" and "Israel".

Now you label anyone who calls you on the charade as "sacrilegious".

I will ask again...

How much of Abraham's or Jacob's DNA does one need to be in the category of "Israel"?

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the most important genealogy in the Bible is Matthew 1:1, and you refuse to acknowledge the warnings below about using genealogy in our faith.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The truth of the matter is, based on modern DNA science many of those that you label as "us" are direct descendants of Abraham and or Jacob.

The truth is, that I have repeatedly demonstrated, and very clearly demonstrated, this difference. And you have simply refused to admit that the scriptures actually mean what they explicitly say.

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have repeatedly refused to show the difference between "us" and "Israel".

Now you label anyone who calls you on the charade as "sacrilegious".

I will ask again...

How much of Abraham's or Jacob's DNA does one need to be in the category of "Israel"?

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the most important genealogy in the Bible is Matthew 1:1, and you refuse to acknowledge the warnings below about using genealogy in our faith.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The truth of the matter is, based on modern DNA science many of those that you label as "us" are direct descendants of Abraham and or Jacob.

Superb. Thanks brother.

Great ending video comment, "a big melting pot."

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
The truth is, that I have repeatedly demonstrated, and very clearly demonstrated, this difference. And you have simply refused to admit that the scriptures actually mean what they explicitly say.

Still waiting. How much DNA?

Do the video participants qualify?

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

keras said:
Those peoples never fulfilled the prophesies of Daniel or Revelation, of there being ten regions of all the world, ruled by a king or governor. Most of those tribal groups you list never had a single leader and they certainly never ruled a tenth of the world.
It is quite unbelievable to say that the Catholic Church 'treads down and crushes the whole earth'.
Your preterist belief is rejected on the grounds of inadequate fulfilment of the Bible prophesies.
What you say, may be construed as a precursor of a future final fulfilment.

The view that denies the plain Prophetic Word and believes all these things are past history, leaves people without a clue as to what God actually does plan for our future. This isn't what God wants, because He has given us all the information needed for us to be aware and prepared for what must happen, before Jesus Returns.

The ten kingdoms and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Each kingdom was a separate territory. These were the predecessors of today's European countries.

Nowhere is it said that they ruled a tenth of the world.

Nowhere is it said that the Catholic Church 'treads down and crushes the whole earth'. That description is associated with the fourth kingdom, the imperial Roman empire, and accurately characterizes the effects of its governance across that empire.

You need to shed some preconceptions and presumptions.

keras · Jan 19, 2018

jgr said:
You need to shed some preconceptions and presumptions.

You need to gain some understanding of what God has planned for the world and His people before Jesus Returns.
Trying to make those ten people groups fit the prophesies like Revelation 17:12-14, is just not possible. They were never all around at the same time and they never conferred their power onto another powerful leader. The Lamb has yet to conquer this forthcoming 'beast'.

keras · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Do you imagine that the God who created heaven and earth, does not have is own method of determining who He credits as being the true descendants of the ancient nation of Israel?

That method is clearly stated in Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 3:26-29, +
Faithful Christians, from every race, nation and language are: the chosen people, the dedicated nation, the Royal priesthood, claimed by God for His own......Once you were not a people at all, but now you are God's people..... 1 Peter 2:9-10

claninja · Jan 19, 2018

keras said:
This I fully agree with. What are we arguing about?

Basically, it comes down to differences in beliefs about what the kingdom of heaven is.

Is it a literal earthly kingdom only, that has not yet been established, where Christ is not yet King, for which we await and are not citizens of yet?

Is it a kingdom that is present, from which Christ sits and rules over all heaven and earth (heaven his throne, earth his footstool), where we (the body of Christ) are it's current citizens?

keras said:
Not yet, because Jesus' Kingdom isn't yet established on earth. Haven't you noticed that?

So Christ, who is God, does not have all authority over heaven AND EARTH
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

So Christ, who is God, is not not currently the ruler of the kings OF THE EARTH?
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

claninja · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
There are many here, (I think including yourself) that deny that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around," will again be inhabited by absolutely all of "the house of Israel," as is so explicitly stated in Ezekel 36. And there are many here (again, I think including you) that deny that in a future day the nation of Israel will again have the borders so specifically and explicitly defined in Ezekiel 47, and that it will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel in the way so specifically and explicitly stated in Ezekiel 48.

Again, there are many here, (again I think including you) that deny that the ancient sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim will again be united into a single nation, with a single king, and go out together to attack Israel's enemies Judah and Ephraim, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 47 and Isaiah 11.

I could go on and on, but this is enough to prove the point.

There is no logical way the even pretend either that these promises refer to the church, or that they have already been fulfilled.

Again, I asked you to provide quotations, where anyone said, in this forum, that they don't believe God did/will fulfill his OT promises to Israel. Are you going to provide any proof that anyone in this forum stated anything of that nature.

Again, here is what you said:

Biblewriter said:
including most recently yourself, choose to interpret these New Testament scriptures to mean that the Old testament promises to Israel will not actually be fulfilled.

Many on here have different opinions on how God did/will fulfill his OT promises to Israel and who is true Israel, but no one said God will not actually fulfill his OT promises to Israel.

Until you provide me with evidence that someone specifically stated God will not fulfill His OT promises to Israel, you are not only creating a straw man argument, you are falsely accusing not just me, but others on this forum.

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

keras said:
You need to gain some understanding of what God has planned for the world and His people before Jesus Returns.

I have no difficulty understanding what has already been fulfilled. I'm unable to understand a rationale that attempts to replace those fulfillments with futurized speculation and conjecture.

keras said:
Trying to make those ten people groups fit the prophesies like Revelation 17:12-14, is just not possible.

I've said nothing about Revelation. My focus has been Daniel 7 exclusively.

keras said:
They were never all around at the same time and they never conferred their power onto another powerful leader.

The historical record confirms that they were all in concurrent existence. Nowhere does Daniel 7 say that they would confer their power on to another leader.

keras said:
The Lamb has yet to conquer this forthcoming 'beast'.

The Lamb has conquered every beast by the faith and sacrifice of His saints down through the ages. He will continue to do so.

Biblewriter · Jan 19, 2018

jgr said:
Still waiting. How much DNA?

Do the video participants qualify?

It is both impudent towards God and sacriledgeous to question whether or not it is probable that a prophecy could be fulfilled. It would be impossible to come up with a more unlikely prophecy, than to say that a virgin would conceive and bear a son. But that prophecy was literally fulfilled.

God knows the ENTIRE geneology of every individual on the face of the earth, and He, and He alone, will decide who qualifies, and who does not. And He des not need DNA to know.

Biblewriter · Jan 19, 2018

claninja said:
Again, I asked you to provide quotations, where anyone said, in this forum, that they don't believe God did/will fulfill his OT promises to Israel. Are you going to provide any proof that anyone in this forum stated anything of that nature.

Again, here is what you said:

Many on here have different opinions on how God did/will fulfill his OT promises to Israel and who is true Israel, but no one said God will not actually fulfill his OT promises to Israel.

Until you provide me with evidence that someone specifically stated God will not fulfill His OT promises to Israel, you are not only creating a straw man argument, you are falsely accusing not just me, but others on this forum.

Do you, or do you not, deny that God will indeed bring all Israel back to the land AFTER He comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire?

Do you, or do you not, deny that there will be a time when absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will inhabit the "mountains of "Israel," with "the hills, he rivers, he valleys, and the desolate wastes"?

Do you, or do you not, deny that there will be a time when the nation of israel will have the borders defined in Ezekiel 47, and have the land divided among the twelve tribes in the manner described in Ezekiel 48"

These are simple yes or no questions. Will you answer them directly? Or will you try to talk your way around them?

claninja · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Do you, or do you not, deny that God will indeed bring all Israel back to the land AFTER He comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire?

Do you, or do you not, deny that there will be a time when absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will inhabit the "mountains of "Israel," with "the hills, he rivers, he valleys, and the desolate wastes"?

Do you, or do you not, deny that there will be a time when the nation of israel will have the borders defined in Ezekiel 47, and have the land divided among the twelve tribes in the manner described in Ezekiel 48"

These are simple yes or no questions. Will you answer them directly? Or will you try to talk your way around them?

I do not deny so...
Yes, yes, and yes. I believe God fulfilled/will fulfill all the OT promises to Israel. Now will you answer my question? You seem to be avoiding it.

claninja · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
God will determine this, not man, and he does not need DNA to know. That is why this impudent question is sacriledgeous.

I think there is a verse for this:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:28-29

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
God will determine this, not man, and he does not need DNA to know.

You are absolutely correct. All He needs to know are faith and obedience in and to His Son.

Biblewriter · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
It is both impudent toeards God and sacriledgeous to question whether or not it is possible for a prophecy to be .

claninja said:
I do not deny so...
Yes, yes, and yes. I believe God fulfilled/will fulfill all the OT promises to Israel. Now will you answer my question? You seem to be avoiding it.

So- you actually believe that there will be a time when the entire nation of Israel will again inhabit their ancient homeland, be united under a single king, and worship their God with animal sacrifices?

Again, I have had MANY deny that these things will actually happen, right in this forum. But I am not going to bother to go back and dig them up.

One case I remember from the past was two others consoling themselves with the claim that "he doesn't have anything but Ezekiel to go on."

Biblewriter · Jan 19, 2018

jgr said:
You are absolutely correct. All He needs to know are faith and obedience in and to His Son.

AND genetic descent from one of the twelve sons of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

Biblewriter said:
AND genetic descent from one of the twelve sons of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

Wait a sec...you just said He doesn't need DNA to know.

Now you say He does.

Which is it?

keras · Jan 20, 2018

Biblewriter said:
AND genetic descent from one of the twelve sons of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.

Right: the majority of 'all Israel', who will occupy all of the holy Land, soon after the entire ME area is cleared and cleansed by the devastation of the Lord's Day of wrath. will be actual genetic descendants of Jacob. This must be the case in order for God to fulfil his promises to the Patriarchs.
However, Paul makes it clear in his metaphor of the Olive Tree, that many faithful Christians from every race, nation and language will be grafted in to Israel. Romans 11:13-24 Also Isaiah 56:1-8....I shall add to those who have already been gathered.

jgr · Jan 20, 2018

keras said:
Right: the majority of 'all Israel', who will occupy all of the holy Land, soon after the entire ME area is cleared and cleansed by the devastation of the Lord's Day of wrath. will be actual genetic descendants of Jacob. This must be the case in order for God to fulfil his promises to the Patriarchs.

Virtually everyone on earth has some of Jacob's DNA.

God's promises to the Patriarchs are fulfilled in Christ (Gal. 3:16) and those in Christ (Gal. 3:28,29). No mention of DNA.

New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

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