No rapture removes us from the earth

Another Lazarus · Jan 15, 2018

BABerean2 said:
In the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13, it is the tares who are taken first and destroyed in the fire, while the wheat is left behind to be gathered into the barn.

Its not necessarily so, here the wheat is gather first then the chaff is burnt.

Matt 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The point is the same : the wheat is gathered and the chaff is burnt.

The wheat means the wise virgins with OIL taken to the feast of the Lamb.

The chaff is the world left behind and mourning.

BABerean2 · Jan 16, 2018

Another Lazarus said:
Its not necessarily so, here the wheat is gather first then the chaff is burnt.

Matt 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The point is the same : the wheat is gathered and the chaff is burnt.

The wheat means the wise virgins with OIL taken to the feast of the Lamb.

The chaff is the world left behind and mourning.

Matthew 3:12 does not give the order.

Matthew chapter 13 does.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Another Lazarus · Jan 16, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn..

Do you understand how would God burn the tares (wicked people) in the Grief Tribulation ?
Its by the 7 seal opening, 7 trumpets and 7 vials of judgment, no safe place on earth for you unless you hide in your bunker with complete ammo waiting for somebody to kill and rob you.

BABerean2 · Jan 16, 2018

Another Lazarus said:
Do you understand how would God burn the tares (wicked people) in the Grief Tribulation ?
Its by the 7 seal opening, 7 trumpets and 7 vials of judgment, no safe place on earth for you unless you hide in your bunker with complete ammo waiting for somebody to kill and rob you.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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Another Lazarus · Jan 16, 2018

BABerean2 said:
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day..

God never forced you to believe the pretrib. rapture, the foolish virgins will be left behind and they will yell to God but they are bound to the tribulation.

BABerean2 · Jan 16, 2018

Another Lazarus said:
God never forced you to believe the pretrib. rapture, the foolish virgins will be left behind and they will yell to God but they are bound to the tribulation.

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Blade · Jan 16, 2018

When we read His word we need to always read above and below and to know there were no CHAPTERS and verses. So... as I read ..it seems you are taking a verse out of context. "removed" and you then tie it to "caught up". Which reads.. dead rise.. go up, which will not go before us. We then will go up with them to meet Christ in the AIR. To be with Him forever. Caught up? Means?

Some verses I find interesting. In Isa Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Marvin Knox · Jan 16, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Proverbs 10:30
The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth.

The meaning of that scripture is clear for all to see and to stretch it to say what you are insinuating is - well, ridiculous.

To apply this particular verse to the removal of the church from the earth before God's wrath falls on the earth is ridiculous in the extreme IMO.

Even though I hold to a pre-wrath rapture of the church - there may be some bible based arguments against the rapture idea that have some merit. But this isn't one of them.

Bible2+ · Jan 16, 2018

Another Lazarus said in post #21:

The wheat means the wise virgins with OIL taken to the feast of the Lamb.

Note that the 10 virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ won't occur until His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), just as Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the future Tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of Christians, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the Church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the Church to Jesus at His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) will not have started by the time of Revelation 19, which will not begin until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the Church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem, after the resurrection and marriage of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the Church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus Himself at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10 virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says: "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the Church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus Christ's Second Coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Bible2+ · Jan 16, 2018

Another Lazarus said in post #25:

God never forced you to believe the pretrib. rapture . . .

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus Christ won't come and gather together (rapture) the Church until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the Church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' Second Coming and the physical resurrection of the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the Church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the Church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus Christ won't return and gather together (rapture) the Church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the Church, and the future Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the Church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the Church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the Church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the Church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge everyone in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the Church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14), as He defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

sdowney717 · Jan 17, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
The meaning of that scripture is clear for all to see and to stretch it to say what you are insinuating is - well, ridiculous.

To apply this particular verse to the removal of the church from the earth before God's wrath falls on the earth is ridiculous in the extreme IMO.

Even though I hold to a pre-wrath rapture of the church - there may be some bible based arguments against the rapture idea that have some merit. But this isn't one of them.

Hardly absurd, God will not remove the righteous from the earth. Who are removed? The wicked are removed out of their place on the earth, taken to a place of destruction. That proverbs verse is prophetically speaking of the end of days.

Matthew 24:37-39New King James Version (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Noah however remained alive on the earth. While the wicked were removed from the earth.

Christians are caught up to be with the LORD when he descends FROM HEAVEN, on His way down here to earth at the second coming. We look forward to this as our salvation from perilous times for those days are particularly evil.
ALL the earth shall see the salvation of the LORD, does not mean all are saved, they will witness God's salvation of His people.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

There are believers who remain alive and remain on this earth at the second coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Peter also spoke of this coming salvation at His return
1 Peter 1:4-6New King James Version (NKJV)
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,

Marvin Knox · Jan 17, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Hardly absurd, God will not remove the righteous from the earth.

Tell that to Enoch, Elijah, and - well - Jesus.

While that verse could be use, tortuously IMO, to teach that no righteous man will be removed from the earth - biblical history tells us otherwise.

The righteous will inherit the earth when if is made new. The scriptures tell us that - nothing new or even pertinent there.

But the righteous are not destined for the wrath of God which is to come on this old earth - nothing new there either and it is extremely pertinent.

sdowney717 said:
Who are removed? The wicked are removed out of their place on the earth, taken to a place of destruction.

As they say down at Geico - everyone knows that.

sdowney717 said:
That proverbs verse is prophetically speaking of the end of days.

If you mean by "the end of days" the time just before the wrath of God falls and there begin days of tribulation for this earth such as it has never seen - I don't believe so.

As God has instructed us to do - I have prayed that I will escape that awful day of judgment on this earth.

"For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 2:35-36

I have the faith to believe that my prayer will be answered because it is based on scripture promises.

Other - apparently - not so much.

PanDeVida · Jan 17, 2018

Doug Melven said:
1 Thessalonians disagrees with your interpretation.
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And Revelation too.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Bible2+ · Jan 17, 2018

Marvin Knox said in post #32:

But the righteous are not destined for the wrath of God . . .

Amen.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Note that this refers only to wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). For even obedient Christians can suffer the wrath of Satan, which does not affect their salvation from hell (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation rapture view) that the entire future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the Tribulation which will be His wrath will be directed against any of the Christians (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the Tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces in order to bring disaster upon the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces in order to bring disaster upon righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The future Tribulation's first five seals (Revelation 6:1-11) will not be God's wrath or judgment. For after the first four seals, the Christian martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when He is going to bring His judgment against the non-Christian world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more Christian martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11), will not be God's wrath against those Christian martyrs. So Jesus Christ's unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the future Tribulation's first stage, does not mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but simply that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The Tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the future Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The future Day of the Lord itself will not begin until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the future Day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) will not begin until Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the future Tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job did not go out of his way in order to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11; and just as the apostles John and Matthew did not go out of their way in order to correct the mistaken statements of the people which they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a; so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way in order to correct the statement of the people which he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the Tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of strange horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels (that is, his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the future Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the non-Christian world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind, and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, Satan could deceive the non-Christian world into actively hating YHWH, and worshipping Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the Tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers, as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of Christians (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the future Antichrist's worldwide reign, Christians will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus Himself is not the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ Himself is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against Christians (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath. For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the future Tribulation's final stage, because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any Christians who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus Christ will return right after the seventh-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30). And He will bring the Second-Coming wrath of God upon the non-Christian world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that Second-Coming wrath begins, Christians will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky, in order to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Bible2+ · Jan 17, 2018

Marvin Knox said in post #32:

As God has instructed us to do - I have prayed that I will escape that awful day of judgment on this earth.

"For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:35-36

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the Church will escape all of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the Church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape the Tribulation by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape the Tribulation by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Gottservant · Jan 18, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Proverbs 10:30
The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth.
[...]

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

I really liked this post; it gave me a concrete sense of perspective.

But I don't really know what to say: "Thankyou Holy Spirit, for the Rapture!"

It seems everyone would like to know where they stand: as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!

sdowney717 · Jan 19, 2018

The false teachers all say you will not suffer tribulation - persecution - death before the appointed end, God will rapture you away from all troubles that are coming.
Jesus paints an ugly realistic picture of what world conditions will be like before the end. The YOU here are the followers of Christ who are suffering. But those who endure to the end shall be saved!
If you were going to be raptured, then why would Christ say any of these things are coming for His people?
Christians are not yet hated by all nations, so this is in the future when the kingdom of the beast and the dragon and false prophet are empowered for a few years.

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

BABerean2 · Jan 19, 2018

sdowney717 said:
The false teachers all say you will not suffer tribulation - persecution - death before the appointed end, God will rapture you away from all troubles that are coming.
Jesus paints an ugly realistic picture of what world conditions will be like before the end. The YOU here are the followers of Christ who are suffering. But those who endure to the end shall be saved!
If you were going to be raptured, then why would Christ say any of these things are coming for His people?
Christians are not yet hated by all nations, so this is in the future when the kingdom of the beast and the dragon and false prophet are empowered for a few years.

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I agree with the first part of this post.
However, part of the Olivet Discourse is about future events and part of it is about the events leading up to 70 AD.
Luke's Gospel reveals the timing.

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)

Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　

Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)

Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　

Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)

Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　

Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　

Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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Bible2+ · Jan 19, 2018

BABerean2 said in post #38:

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple

Note that the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

BABerean2 said in post #38:

Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

When Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He is referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus' Second Coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the future Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

BABerean2 said in post #38:

(Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But per Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 24:15, the Church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future when the Church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15), and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st and only time (2 Thessalonians 2:4), he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage. For that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General (the Antichrist's precursor) who will defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

BABerean2 said in post #38:

(Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile Christians, not just Jewish Christians. The Church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the Church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to Christians around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, divinely-protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, in the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

BABerean2 said in post #38:

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation, and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

jgr · Jan 19, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Note that the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

When Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He is referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus' Second Coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the future Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But per Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 24:15, the Church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future when the Church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15), and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st and only time (2 Thessalonians 2:4), he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage. For that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General (the Antichrist's precursor) who will defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile Christians, not just Jewish Christians. The Church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the Church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to Christians around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, divinely-protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, in the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation, and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

The following represent the prevailing fulfilled view of Matthew 24 and its parallel passages for 18 centuries of true Christian Church history.

160AD Clement of Alexandria

(On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."

325AD Eusebius Pamphilius

Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) "--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)

375AD John Chrysostom

Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)

John Calvin

Matthew 24:15
When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant(Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 136 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected.

Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).

Matthew Henry

Matthew 24:15
Here he comes more closely to answer their questions concerning the desolation of the temple; and what he said here, would be of use to his disciples, both for their conduct and for their comfort, in reference to that great event; he describes the several steps of that calamity, such as are usual in war.1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma eremoseos —The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54 . Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20 ),when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16 ); so an enemy’s army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination.Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31 Dan. 12:11 ); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27 ), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate.

John Wesley

Matthew 24:15-16
24:15
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Daniel 11:31 ; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, onwhich they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it. 13:14 ; Luke 21:20; Dan 9:27.

24:16
Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.

Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18
This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).

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