Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

LoveofTruth said:

Galatians 1:6,8 KJV
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace ofChrist unto another gospel:..let him be accursed"

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The portion of that verse you left out changes the whole meaning. You left out all of 7 and most of 8. Here is Galatians 1:6-8
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

LoveofTruth said:

Acts 5:3,4 KJV
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

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When Luke refers to Christians/believers he calls them disciples.
Ananias is referred to as "a certain man".
So it is doubtful if he was saved to begin with.

I agree with the rest of what you say, but you shouldn't do this to Scripture, it doesn't help.

The problem with you mixing these things up makes it look as if keeping us saved is up to us.
In Galatians 1 the truth you say is there, is not actually there.
Verse 8 is a new thought due to that huge word, "but".
Paul said he stood in doubt of the Galatians, you make it sound as if the Galatians had already lost there salvation.
Paul wanted them to repent of there dependence on the law.
If they had lost there salvation, it would be impossible to repent and regain salvation according to Hebrews 6.

Judas, had the blessing of being on Earth with Christ.. but unfortunately, missed the most important part:

"Jesus breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." - John 20:22

ToBeLoved said:

Right, Judas is lost.

Now prove that Judas was ever saved.

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John 2:11
This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

Surely you think one is saved by believing in Jesus.

LoveofTruth said:

Yet Judas and the others had this

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot... 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

seems clear from the text

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Very true.. but I don't think it's the same as Pentecost. He was given the authority of speaking for Jesus, but after the disciples received the Holy Spirit, they were truly new men.

In any case, Judas makes me sad. I know it's been popular to demonize him throughout history, but I don't think any of us should relish it. Even if I don't think he was "saved", it's just sad.

LoveofTruth said:

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

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If eternal security is a false doctrine, then Jesus was flat out wrong when He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28a.

It couldn't be any more clear than that.

Also recall that prior to this statement, Jesus made clear WHEN one receives eternal life.

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Him for it.

Note these verses about who HAS (presently possesses) eternal life:

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but HAVE eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So it is clearly established that possessing eternal life comes with the MOMENT one believes.

Therefore, from the MOMENT when one believes in Christ for salvation, He says that they shall never perish.

End of story.

All the verses that followed in this OP are being misinterpreted as is obvious from the verses above.

Now, on to "perseverance of the saints". Yes, that doctrine IS a false one. The Bible is clear that believers can fall away. But that doesn't mean fall away from their salvation, or again, Jesus' words in John 10:28a would be a LIE. It means to fall away from their faith. Not their salvation.

Anyone who promotes the doctrine of loss of salvation is in direct conflict with their Lord and Savior.

How sad.

LoveofTruth said:

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation.

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Define "saved".

Judas was not saved in the full sense of the word since the sealing Holy Spirit had not yet been sent.

He may have had an integral part in the Lord's ministry before the crucifixion. He appears even to have become a part of that ministry by virtue of being chosen for that purpose.

But He simply could not have been "saved" in the sense you seem to be getting at because the Lord had not yet gone to Calvary and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.

What happened to Judas has no bearing at all on the biblical doctrine of eternal security which is, I am quite sure, the doctrine you want to undermine with this particular approach.

Marvin Knox said:

Define "saved".

Judas was not saved in the full sense of the word since the sealing Holy Spirit had not yet been sent.

He may have had an integral part in the Lord's ministry before the crucifixion. He appears even to have become a part of that ministry by virtue of being chosen for that purpose.

But He simply could not have been "saved" in the sense you seem to be getting at because the Lord had not yet gone to Calvary and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.

What happened to Judas has no bearing at all on the biblical doctrine of eternal security which is, I am quite sure, the doctrine you want to undermine with this particular approach.

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Another one who does not believe any OT saint was saved.

OT saints were saved by faith too. They just didn't get the indwelling Spirit like born-again believers do.
And as somebody said earlier that Judas believed according John 2.
I would ask where is the evidence of his salvation?
The Spirit coming on people as in Matthew 10 is not evidence of salvation, as there were OT people who had the Spirit come on them, Balaam, for instance.

EmSw said:

Another one who does not believe any OT saint was saved.

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Where do you see that I don't believe any OT saint was saved?

And, like I said, "define saved".

I have come to be another witness who testifies alongside of @LoveofTruth in regards to Once Called, NOT necessarily SAVED.

Jesus said many are called to faith, yet few are chosen.
At the end of the day, the sovereign Lord chooses who he will redeem unto salvation, to spend eternity with him, in his Father's house.

Jesus said keep the faith onto death, and I will give you a crown of eternal life.

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

The one spoken of is a believer who was called to faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus alluded to the good servant and the complacent wicked servant, who will be given his portion with the unbelievers. Jesus would not mention a parable of the good and wicked servant in Matthew 24:48-51, if there was absolutely no possibility of a once servant who was called to faith, to be found complacent upon the day and hour of his Lord's coming. This day and hour for many has already come, when they biologically died, to then face judgment for the works of faith done in the earthly body.

Doug Melven said:

The problem with you mixing these things up makes it look as if keeping us saved is up to us.

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There is another aspect that you are totally ignoring.

What if, Jesus does not want someone to spend eternity with him. Don't you think that the bridegroom can choose his bride, or will his bride force herself onto him?

Apostle Paul spoke of the Falling Away from the faith of the once called to faith, just like Judas.

Don't you think that Judas was called Christ's disciple?

If he was a disciple, then he would have been in a position to receive his eternal inheritance, but why was he the fall guy?

The Lord had purposed it.

The righteous Jesus would not have chosen a traitor to begin with, otherwise Jesus would be implicated in his own crucifixion, yet he knew all along that Judas would betray him.

This means that @LoveofTruth opening thread post identifies Judas as a once called disciple.

Is being called to Christ, guareentee one's salvation onto biological death?

No.

It has to comply conditionally with what Jesus taught, that is to keep the faith, even onto death.

Apostle Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, that he has fought the life long fight of faith and has finished his race and has kept the faith onto death and now anticipates that the righteous Lord will give him his crown of life as a faithful servant.

Apostle John calls the once called to faith Christians who were with their congregation, as the many Anti-Christos.....

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:18-19)

Many had come to faith when they confessed Christ Jesus, yet John kicks them out of his congregation because they did not belong with them, that they may be exposed as the many antichrists.

Do you understand that once called to faith, doesn't mean always saved.

11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

Just as God gave the Son of Perdition, Judas to embrace the lie, in order for him to be the fall guy, these end of days sons (Man/Anthropos/People) of Sin (perdition), yes prophesying Christians are given the Strong Delusion, so that they will perish and not see his face, for many shall say in that day (day of judgment), Lord Lord and many will be cast out of his presence.

They, like Judas had the truth, but dropped the ball so to speak towards the end of their race of faith and in this respect, were cast out as wicked SERVANTS, who are given their portion with the unbelievers (Matthew 24:51)

So it is the sovereign Lord who chooses who he will give eternal security, by helping them over the line, that is they successfully carry their crosses over the finish line.

FreeGrace2 said:

If eternal security is a false doctrine, then Jesus was flat out wrong when He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28a.

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Eternal security is a conditionally based promise, that is chosen by the sovereign Lord. As the verse says, those in particular who he chooses, are guareenteed, yet Judas and others will not be chosen, for many are called and yet a few are chosen (Matthew 22:1-14)

Many are invited and assume their automatic invitation, just like the guest without his wedding garments of righteousness, but they will be the ones saying Lord Lord and be cast out. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins is another example of Jesus choosing who he will give eternal security to.

FreeGrace2 said:

It couldn't be any more clear than that.

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Clearly many people choose to ignore that salvation is conditional and the outcome is determined if Jesus chooses that person. Judas was not chosen by Jesus for salvation and was a fall guy, just like many end of days Christians will walk the path of Judas and the Lord is the one who gives them the strong delusion to believe the lie and to conform with the world and to embrace the fallen society.

FreeGrace2 said:

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Him for it.

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No, this is presumptuous and is false. Using the witnesses of Jesus, inclusive of Jesus own parables of the good and wicked servant in Matthew 24:48-51, the complacent servant who does not carry his cross over the finish line, will not be saved.

Marvin Knox said:

Judas was not saved in the full sense of the word since the sealing Holy Spirit had not yet been sent.

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This is nonesence!

If Judas was called a disciple by Jesus and was chosen for that purpose and function, then are you saying that Jesus unrighteously chose him or that the other disciples were not saved, even though Jesus said plainly that all I can save, bare one. Are you implying that Jesus lied when he said that the other disciples were saved?

EmSw said:

Another one who does not believe any OT saint was saved.

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Yes, this is apparent, because OT were saved by keeping the Word onto death. The 11 disciples bare Judas before Pentecost were also saved as Jesus said they were, bare one.

This means that salvation requires a servant to be faithful even onto death and to carry their cross over the finishing line, on the day and the hour of their biological death/departure.

LoveofTruth said:

I looked at what you said and I believe I spoke correctly. Yes i should have quoted the rest of the verses.

But the truth is still there. Paul said if anyone else preaches another gospel let them be accursed. The curse here does not only apply to the believers who may preach another gospel , but also to those who believe it. He did say to all of them, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:" This would seem to be what happened to some there who were once believers.

I base my case on some verses in the book itself, paul said

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."(Galatians 3:1-4 KJV)

Here we see that they are all being spoken to and they had at one time received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, and were now going back to the law and the flesh. To do so caused Paul to say

"19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you."(Galatians 4:19,20 KJV)

Does standing in doubt of them sound like Paul could have given them a once saved always saved doctrine?

and he said

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace...7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?"( Galatians 5:2-4,7 KJV)

Here we see that they were fallen from grace (and by grace are ye saved through faith). Christ would be of no effect unto them or profit them anything .

Paul also said to them,

" 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law"

and another place Paul said,

Galatians 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Paul said that the gospel he preached was 1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV. And to keep saved believers have to keep it in memory. So if a person is moved away from the gospel, and does not keep it in memory then are they still saved? If they are cursed for going back to the flesh and the law and need to have Christ formed in them again, are they saved? If they fall from grace and Christ profits them nothing are they saved?

consider 1 Cor 15:1-4 again

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

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Maybe I can add a little perspective here.

What Paul is talking about in Galatians 3 are the Judaizer's that came into the church as wolves, preaching the Law or Old Covenant after the gospel of salvations through the blood of Christ had been shared with the Galatians by Paul.

When Paul is saying 'another gospel' that is what he is talking about, the Law or Old Covenant teachings.

They were not fallen from grace as in they had lost their salvation. They had fallen from standing in the freedom from the Law that they have been given by Christ through His shed blood on the cross. Paul was reminding them that if they choose to go back to the Old Covenant Law as the premise for their salvation, that being under the Law, they would have to keep it perfectly because that is the curse of the Law, that it must be kept perfectly and completely, which no one can do but Christ.

And the let him be accursed that preach another gospel is talking about someone who preaches the Law over Christ, trying to bring the new believers back under the Law.

The Times said:

I have come to be another witness who testifies alongside of @LoveofTruth in regards to Once Called, NOT necessarily SAVED.

Jesus said many are called to faith, yet few are chosen.
At the end of the day, the sovereign Lord chooses who he will redeem unto salvation, to spend eternity with him, in his Father's house.

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The problem with your argument here is the basic premise of your entire argument is flawed.

Jesus said that He desires that NONE be lost. Therefore, many are called to faith, but being 'called' does not mean that they have listened or have been saved.

If you read Romans, you will see that God is calling all of the world.

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


So you are using this verse entirely out of context.

ToBeLoved said:

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So you are using this verse entirely out of context.

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Maybe the OSAS crowd should read this. Those who commit such things are of a reprobate mind and are worthy of death.

EmSw said:

Maybe the OSAS crowd should read this. Those who commit such things are of a reprobate mind and are worthy of death.

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Are you talking about spiritual death or physical death?

I am part of the OSAS crowd.

My point in that verse is all are called. It says in the verse that none are without excuse for seeing that there is a God.

The Times said:

.....If Judas was called a disciple by Jesus and was chosen for that purpose and function, then are you saying that Jesus unrighteously chose him

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I'm not sure what that means - "unrighteously chose him".

Whatever you mean by that - Jesus committed no unrighteousness.

God chose Pharaoh for His purposes and it was not unrighteous of Him to do it.
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Romans 9:16-18

God chose Gog for His purposes and it was not unrighteous of Him to do it.
"‘.......Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out........" Ezekiel 38:3-4

The Times said:

.....or that the other disciples were not saved, even though Jesus said plainly that all I can save, bare one.

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I have never said that the other disciples were not saved. I believe we'll see them in Heaven now that the work of Christ is done and they are justified so that they can stand in the presence of God with us.

The Times said:

..... Are you implying that Jesus lied when he said that the other disciples were saved?

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I have implied nothing. I have spoken plainly.

No one in the scriptures was "saved" in the full sense of the word until the work of Christ was done, and they were justified before God.

This is why the beggar in Jesus' story was carried by the angels to Paradise when he died and not into the presence of God as we are.

"Absent from the body - present with the Lord" has not always been the case for God's people after their death.

I've been very clear about what I am saying. That's why I began my critique by asking a question through the statement - define "saved".

You do the same for me if you will.

Depending on your answer - we may not have any difference when all is said and done.