US border patrol routinely sabotages water left for migrants, report says

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Well you see the problem then...everyone wants to be fed, hydrated, and taken back home....no one wants to die. Only one of those will ever be an effective deterrent.

I suppose we could turn it into a more serious crime....say a year of hard labor and then you get deported back to your nation? Would that be better in your eyes?

Sounds more like de facto slavery... I thought the whole point was that we don't want illegals taking our jobs? ;)

Look, I'm not saying we should leave the food and water there; I get why it can't stay. My question is why not confiscate the supplies and redistibute them -- perhaps to the homeless? Goodness knows we've got plenty of them.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Oh I'm sure it is....I've seen what they carry over. 10-20lbs of personal possessions in a backpack and maybe a gallon or two of water.

They made their own choices...sometimes those choices have consequences.

Still comes off sounding like "they deserve to die"... just sayin...
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,546
11,387
✟436,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Sounds more like de facto slavery... I thought the whole point was that we don't want illegals taking our jobs? ;)

I'm actually far less concerned about the jobs they take than I am the welfare they absorb. Our debt is too high and taxes spread too thinly to absorb millions upon millions of illegals who cannot speak English, have little or no education, and expect us to provide for them.

Look, I'm not saying we should leave the food and water there; I get why it can't stay. My question is why not confiscate the supplies and redistibute them -- perhaps to the homeless? Goodness knows we've got plenty of them.

Write your local congressman....tell them the border patrol doesn't have enough help/slash money and you're willing to pay more for them to facilitate redistributing resources to the homeless. I'm with you on that.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I'm actually far less concerned about the jobs they take than I am the welfare they absorb. Our debt is too high and taxes spread too thinly to absorb millions upon millions of illegals who cannot speak English, have little or no education, and expect us to provide for them.

I can't speak for the illegal immigrants, but on a slightly similar note, there was a report a few months ago that refugees actually added over $63 billion to the national economy, but the White House blocked it because it didn't fit their narrative:

Ah, here it is: White House nixes study on benefits of refugees, report says

Now, I don't know the exact numbers concerning how much the illegal immigrants take compared to how much they put in, but it seems to me that we should pause before accepting the official narrative.

Write your local congressman....tell them the border patrol doesn't have enough help/slash money and you're willing to pay more for them to facilitate redistributing resources to the homeless. I'm with you on that.

I think we both know any money they get is going to get flushed into the Great Wall of Donald... A shame, really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tadoflamb
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,546
11,387
✟436,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I can't speak for the illegal immigrants, but on a slightly similar note, there was a report a few months ago that refugees actually added over $63 billion to the national economy, but the White House blocked it because it didn't fit their narrative:

Ah, here it is: White House nixes study on benefits of refugees, report says

Now, I don't know the exact numbers concerning how much the illegal immigrants take compared to how much they put in, but it seems to me that we should pause before accepting the official narrative.

Well there's this...

Welfare Use by Legal and Illegal Immigrant Households

Which shows that legal and illegal immigrants tend to use welfare programs at very high rates...and frankly, when you look at their analysis of the situation, I'd say they're underestimating the problem.



I think we both know any money they get is going to get flushed into the Great Wall of Donald... A shame, really.


Sadly true.
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Because Christians and the government are supposed to help people in need. No good Christian wouldn't let a person needing food or water go without. They are supposed to help this.
The government is there for the American people. It is not our responsibility to help the whole world, especially those violating its sovereignty and attempting to enter it illegally.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Sistrin
Upvote 0

TerranceL

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?
Jul 3, 2009
18,940
4,661
✟105,808.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Still comes off sounding like "they deserve to die"... just sayin...
There was a story a month ago of a chinese man who was well liked on streaming services for climbing buildings and taking selfies. Well he did it again last month and fell to his death.

Pointing out that the reason he's dead is because he took stupid risks is no more saying that he deserved to die than it is when we point out that people who choose to break the law and trod off across an unfamiliar desert are also the authors of their own demise.

At this point the "they deserve to die" argument your tossing around is just puerile emotional manipulation.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Ana the Ist
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
There was a story a month ago of a chinese man who was well liked on streaming services for climbing buildings and taking selfies. Well he did it again last month and fell to his death.

Pointing out that the reason he's dead is because he took stupid risks is no more saying that he deserved to die than it is when we point out that people who choose to break the law and trod off across an unfamiliar desert are also the authors of their own demise.

At this point the "they deserve to die" argument your tossing around is just puerile emotional manipulation.

I see your point, but we really should make a distinction distinction between "stupid" and pointless risks... Your Chinese friend was motivated by a desire for fame, nothing more... I suspect people who trek out across an unfamiliar desert are motivated more by desperation... surely a little sympathy is merited?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
It's much more likely if trying to enter illegally carries potentially serious consequences.

The Berlin Wall had guard dogs and armed patrols 24/7 with "shoot on sight" orders. Consequences don't get much more serious than that.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because Christians and the government are supposed to help people in need. No good Christian wouldn't let a person needing food or water go without. They are supposed to help this.
I like to leave some chicken nuggets on the table every night just in case a burglar in need comes in and gets hungry.

These stations should be destroyed, and the word put out that they are being destroyed. Hey, that's exactly what is happening. :)
 
Upvote 0

tadoflamb

no identificado
Feb 20, 2007
16,415
7,531
Diocese of Tucson
✟74,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's naive to think that migrants coming through the desert know what they're getting themselves into. Quite the opposite. They are give false information on how close Tucson or Phoenix are to the border. The one migrant I ran into in an affluent sub-division in a smuggling corridor was told by his coyote that Phoenix was just on the other side of 'that mountain'. He had been walking for three days and had a bum knee. We gave him some food and water and called the BP for him, but by law could not invite him inside or give him a ride but had to leave him sitting int the dirt on the side of the street.

It's impossible to carry enough provisions to survive that trek through the desert.

To deny a dying a person a cup of water because we think they made a bad decision is heartless and flies in the face of Church teaching that the dignity of life is to be respected in all persons.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Aryeh Jay
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,546
11,387
✟436,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It's naive to think that migrants coming through the desert know what they're getting themselves into. Quite the opposite. They are give false information on how close Tucson or Phoenix are to the border. The one migrant I ran into in an affluent sub-division in a smuggling corridor was told by his coyote that Phoenix was just on the other side of 'that mountain'.

"Affluent sub-division in a smuggling corridor" doesn't really describe anywhere I've been to in southern Arizona.


He had been walking for three days and had a bum knee. We gave him some food and water and called the BP for him, but by law could not invite him inside or give him a ride but had to leave him sitting int the dirt on the side of the street.

There's no law preventing you from offering aid to someone who's in need of medical assistance...it doesn't matter if they just murdered someone. I'm not sure why you thought that would be the case here.

It's impossible to carry enough provisions to survive that trek through the desert.

From the border to Phoenix? Yeah, but they wouldn't do that would they? They'd stop at a town just inside the border...
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,730
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟651,120.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I agree that killing people sends a pretty strong message, but surely we can find a more humane way to send it?

Nobody is being killed, even though you'll continue to say it for the dramatic effect.

Fine then -- confiscate the food and water; donate it to the homeless or something.

What difference does it make if it were destroyed in place, or simply confiscated and donated? You seem more concerned about the food and water than the people.

Better still, do what I originally proposed -- stake out the caches, and grab the people when they come to take the food/water. Give them a drink and a sandwich if they need it, toss them in a truck, and drive them back across the border with a smile and a "better luck next time."

Someone was obviously already staking it out. How do you think the camera managed to be there watching the food when the border patrol came along?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,730
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟651,120.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Still comes off sounding like "they deserve to die"... just sayin...

It sounds more to me like, "They knew what risks they were taking when they decided to evade the designated border crossing and climb over walls, dig under fences, or rely on coyotes to smuggle them into the country rather than obey the law and do what they know they're supposed to do but didn't because they had something to hide".
 
Upvote 0

All Englands Skies

Christian-Syndicalist
Nov 4, 2008
1,930
545
Midlands
✟220,857.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
I see your point, but we really should make a distinction distinction between "stupid" and pointless risks... Your Chinese friend was motivated by a desire for fame, nothing more... I suspect people who trek out across an unfamiliar desert are motivated more by desperation... surely a little sympathy is merited?

Those migrants are going to try and cross, water stations or no water stations, they were doing it before anybody built these stations and would continue to do it even if the stations were banned.

Its not encouraging them, they're not even thinking about these water stations when they try to cross over, the stations are irrelevant to "migrant traffic".

So these people are going to be out there anyway, as they're desperate.

So perhaps people create these water stations, because the idea of somebody dying out in the desert of exposure, troubles them, thinking of the human suffering rather than the "criminal intent".

What is more "immoral" here, people breaking immigration law or denying water that could save a life because those people are "idiots breaking the law at their own risk"

The thought of somebody entering my nation illegally is of mild annoyance, not something I would lose sleep over, not that I agree with illegal immigration, but in the grand scheme of things is nothing. But the thought of somebody dying of exposure, slowly out in the wilderness, even if they knew the risk they were taking, bothers me, if I think about such things I would lose sleep.

"Upholding the law" and showing zero tolerance to "law breakers", but at what cost?

The loss of our humanity.

I know which one I see as the "real crime"
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Belk
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,546
11,387
✟436,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Those migrants are going to try and cross, water stations or no water stations, they were doing it before anybody built these stations and would continue to do it even if the stations were banned.

Its not encouraging them, they're not even thinking about these water stations when they try to cross over, the stations are irrelevant to "migrant traffic".

So these people are going to be out there anyway, as they're desperate.

So perhaps people create these water stations, because the idea of somebody dying out in the desert of exposure, troubles them, thinking of the human suffering rather than the "criminal intent".

What is more "immoral" here, people breaking immigration law or denying water that could save a life because those people are "idiots breaking the law at their own risk"

The thought of somebody entering my nation illegally is of mild annoyance, not something I would lose sleep over, not that I agree with illegal immigration, but in the grand scheme of things is nothing. But the thought of somebody dying of exposure, slowly out in the wilderness, even if they knew the risk they were taking, bothers me, if I think about such things I would lose sleep.

"Upholding the law" and showing zero tolerance to "law breakers", but at what cost?

The loss of our humanity.

I know which one I see as the "real crime"

That's an easy position to hold when you're far far from the problem...but when it's your own backyard, then idealists disappear and they get replaced with realists.

The simple fact is, national borders represent a difference between internal and external interests. I doubt very many here in the U.S. look at nations like Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, and the like and think "I hope these places stay corrupt, poor, and violent forever!"....for the most part, we'd love it if these nations were able to fix their problems and provide a standard of living comparable to the U.S.

The problem is that a nation can absorb only so many poor, uneducated, immigrants at a time. If too many are absorbed...the standard of living drops for everyone and all sorts of problems arise. This would be true even if the U.S. were the most egalitarian/humanitarian nation to ever exist on the face of the earth...and we're certainly not that. It's because of this fundamental truth, that borders must be enforced, not ignored.
 
Upvote 0

All Englands Skies

Christian-Syndicalist
Nov 4, 2008
1,930
545
Midlands
✟220,857.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
That's an easy position to hold when you're far far from the problem...but when it's your own backyard, then idealists disappear and they get replaced with realists.

The simple fact is, national borders represent a difference between internal and external interests. I doubt very many here in the U.S. look at nations like Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, and the like and think "I hope these places stay corrupt, poor, and violent forever!"....for the most part, we'd love it if these nations were able to fix their problems and provide a standard of living comparable to the U.S.

The problem is that a nation can absorb only so many poor, uneducated, immigrants at a time. If too many are absorbed...the standard of living drops for everyone and all sorts of problems arise. This would be true even if the U.S. were the most egalitarian/humanitarian nation to ever exist on the face of the earth...and we're certainly not that. It's because of this fundamental truth, that borders must be enforced, not ignored.

In the grand scheme of things, water stations in areas that people are going to cross anyway are of little importance.

Also "my own backyard" (The UK) has its own fair share of illegal immigrant problems (in my actual area where I live too) and the Industries in my area have wage suppression due to the natural undercutting from immigration and there is gangs operating illegal labour.

But does that mean I'd let someone die (even if its their own fault for attempting something against the law) because of the larger issues over migration and to set a "tough stance"?

So I am not "far far" from the problems you bring up, I live amongst it, as the UK has similier problems as the USA.

Does the area you live in the USA, bring you face to face with such problems, I mean you actually run into foreigners and migrants on a daily basis, or is it all hypothetical?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,546
11,387
✟436,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
In the grand scheme of things, water stations in areas that people are going to cross anyway are of little importance.

If you believe they're of little importance...why the concern over them being removed?

Also "my own backyard" (The UK) has its own fair share of illegal immigrant problems (in my actual area where I live too) and the Industries in my area have wage suppression due to the natural undercutting from immigration and there is gangs operating illegal labour.

I'm sure that an island presents its own issues regarding illegal immigrants...but consider that so does sharing a border with one such nation, for example...

Auto Thefts Plague Border Region

That's just one small dimension to the problem. Is there a way to keep out those criminals who strictly seek to steal a vehicle and get it across the border before it's reported stolen without keeping out those who simply want a free education? Not really...



But does that mean I'd let someone die (even if its their own fault for attempting something against the law) because of the larger issues over migration and to set a "tough stance"?

It's not as if anyone is "letting anyone die"...our border patrol does save many lost and injured people every year. Most of the time, those weak and injured people get left behind by the groups they cross with...for fear of being slowed down.

So I am not "far far" from the problems you bring up, I live amongst it, as the UK has similier problems as the USA.

Does the area you live in the USA, bring you face to face with such problems, I mean you actually run into foreigners and migrants on a daily basis, or is it all hypothetical?

I've personally lived in southwest Arizona for several years...and when I moved there, I had a similar mindset to yourself. After living there for some time, I realized that I was very naive about a very complex problem.

There were several years during the Obama administration where illegal immigrantion was so out of control, that illegals were being transferred to states in the interior that rarely had to deal with the problem....and the reaction was almost immediate. They didn't want to deal with the extra costs of holding these illegals...costs that states along the southern border deal with all the time.

With all due respect...we don't have the luxury of a buffer zone of wealthy first world western states and a channel of water between the problem and ourselves. It's simply not the same.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: TerranceL
Upvote 0